Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 362 Location: Minnesota

My brain feels like spaghetti. My sister is 16 years older and really behaved and took on the role of my mother/caregiver. She is one controlling, manipulative, abusive person. I am now proudly 6 mo no contact, with several lengthy periods of NC before that over the last two years. I was just looking at some saved emails, and lo and behold I came across this one. Thought it might help someone who has a covert aggressor in their household. Even now when I read it it makes my head spin!!!!!!!!!! No WONDER I was in an Nfog for 54 years!! She is just an outstanding example of a female N!! Here is the "best of the best" email from January 06--

ME--(One of the first times I really stood up to her-before I realized she is an N and no talking will help): Yes, I have been strongly angry at you. I have kept a lot of feelings about you inside for a long time. Mom used to tell me you couldn't handle anyone being angry at you or standing up to you when you did something wrong-she was afraid you would start drinking. So I stuffed a lot of stuff for a long time. In my opinion, a little self reflection on how you affect and how you have affected others wouldn't kill you. You cant just go around saying whatever you want, whenever you want, bossing everyone around, trying to be the center of attention, ignoring others wishes, and differences from you, and expecting people to behave in the way you want, without people becoming angry with you. There are several others in the family that feel the same way I do, but they are afraid to confront you. I am not afraid, because I am your sister and I want our relationship to be healthier.

HER: I feel like you think I'm too old to understand. I may be getting old, but I still have feelings.

ME: These thoughts are not mine. I have never thought or said you
were to old to understand anything! And I certainly don't think you are too
old to have feelings. Where did THIS come from? I invited you to meet with
me and my therapist. If I thought you were too "old" to work through this, I would have never bothered. I have no idea where you would come up with this.

HER: Now is the time we should be able to share with each other.
We don't have children or husbands to divert our conversations.

ME: I do have children, remember? Your nephews! Yes, our relationship is broken. I don't care if we are twenty or eighty or married or not. I cant continue this relationship the way its been. I sure don't think the air has been cleared and I sure don't think that's going to happen by email, or even by phone. Things are too messed up to even think about what "should be," in my opinion.

HER: If you think I have treated you poorly, causing you to feel you aren't valued, I will have to think about that. I don't seem to feel the guilt.

ME: you say often in many different ways that you don't
think you have any responsibility for our broken communication.
Did you think just because you stopped drinking that we were now
going to be buddy buddy? It doesn't work that way. When things are broken that badly, its not going to change overnight and especially without
talking about the past. You see, I don't think you can even try to understand that. Not because you are old, but because you don't
want to. You have never made amends to any of your birth family for how you behaved when drinking for 28 years. (She actually had many things to apologize for WAY before that-but at the time they were too painful for me to even think about).

HER: (Changes the subject) I think we are alike in many ways and perhaps that's why we can't communicate and clear up old hurts. (YIKES!!!!)

ME: I couldn't disagree more. We are so unlike each other inside, its really very striking to me and many others have expressed this who have known us both. Our values are different, how we interact with others is different, our likes and dislikes are more different than similar, and our habits are different.

HER: (In regards to my suggesting we see a counselor together). I'm not afraid to discuss our difficulties with a neutral person, but I don't think it is necessary. I don't feel guilty about how I've treated you or your family.

ME: My point exactly. It has come through loud and clear that you don't feel that working at our relationship is "necessary. You don't recognize me as a person.

HER: I've apologized to you for the things I didn't do, and asked you to
forgive the things you think were wrong.

ME: I have no idea what you are trying to say here, except that it again suggests to me that you don't think you have any responsibility for how our
relationship is.

HER: So I hope you continue to work on the unhealthy stuff that hasn't
been resolved.

ME: Huh? I am feeling more in touch with myself every day. I am finally getting the big picture with the influence you have had on my life and the one sided relationship we have had. I have been able more and more to stand up for myself. A relationship is a two way street. Nothing is resolved in a relationship without both parties taking ownership. The unhealthy stuff isnt IN ME. Its "in between" us. I cant "work on the unhealthy stuff that hasn't been resolved" in isolation. You don't seem to have this awareness, and there does not seem to be much chance that you will in the future, by the comments you have made.

HER: The past is not a big part of my present. I do see the past as a place
I don't need to, or want to, revisit. (Translation: I don't want to hear you tell me about all the abusive things I have done to you since you were born). Maybe some day we will be close, but I can't fix you.

ME: I didn't ask you to fix me. I don't need to be "fixed." Our relationship needs to take a big turn. We will never be close until you are willing to work at it . You have chosen not to try. I am going to get on with my life.
************************************

October 06--Nine months after the previous email:Her last words (verbatim) "So you need to fix you, before I want to try to have a relationship with you. I don't want to hear what bothers you. I have feelings too, but I've dealt with them, and I want to move on. I can't have open communication with you, because you get angry and/or cry. (HUH?) So for the time being I don't think getting together will help either of us. I would like to be close and have nothing taboo between us. My heart isn't closed to discussing everything. (HUH????) I've been busy with Christmas preparations. I'm having a birthday party for Martha at the nursing home on Sunday at 5:00PM. You and the boys are welcome to come if you wish. [/quote]

MWAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!! Does she stand on her head to come up with stuff like this? Notice the party invite at the end, like she had just been reading a book or something and closed it to say something as an afterthought. The rest of the conversation meant nothing.

My last words, verbatim: You know what? I just reread your email and noted you said this: "you need to fix you, before I want to try to have a relationship with you." You know what? I dont want a relationship with a person who thinks this way. I am done. No further contact. Thanks for reminding me why I was unsatisfied with our relationship in the first place---and why you will never get it.
*********************************
YIKES, It is easy for me to see now why I always felt like the ground was being taken out from under me. Man oh man..........................praise spring and praise God for helping me see how to heal myself!! If you are new here, you can too! Everyone's situation is different, but the Ngame is the same everytime--with just a little variation here and there. cuz mi Can you help me get more insight on this person? I need to process a bit more of the past with her and a little enlightenment wouldnt hurt. I feel like I am slowly taking blinders off.................................

Happy St. Pats to you all and to all a good night. Very Happy

_________________
Once You Have Been Bitten By A Snake, You Are Very Cautious, Even Of A Coiled Rope.

The Dalai Lama

thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 499

I'm cringing.

The kind of treatment we receive(d) is so normal we learn to accept the totally unacceptable. The inane lies and to a child? it boggles the mind how inept these people are. What a waste of space they are. They belong in a zoo, on display for the public's amusement.

WindSong · Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject:

OMG Oak! That is a CLASSIC EXAMPLE of word salad! Total indifference, vearing off the topic that you are trying to discuss but one difference, she just flat out says that she doesn't care.

But the final execution: You need to fix you.... Blame shifting, not accepting her part in yours and her damaged relationship.

It's just classic. I felt my brain go mush when reading it!

It's really something to SEE it when you know what it is. I have many, many email and IM's between me and XNP and I have read and re-read them over and over again and I am amazed every single time I read them! And I am amazed at your sister. You wonder how they come up with this verbal crap they come up with. It's unbelievable and you would doubt it if you didn't see it for yourself, ya know? It's mind blowing!!

Geez I am glad you are in NC..... Stay there if you can!
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Confused and Dazed Administrator. Email me if you have any questions:
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wownowfree · Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 265

Oaktree,

Your sister is more slippery than a greased football. Word salad is a good way to describe it. I noticed she used very neutral words like "I have feelings". But she doesn't TELL you what those feelings are. Is she feeling hurt, sadness, anger, hatred??? She made it sound like "I have feelings, just like you, but unlike you I deal with them effectively." A suble put-down to you. Also refusing to accept responsibility. She also said "I feel like you think I'm too old to understand". She is defining YOUR feelings. She is telling you "this is what you are thinking and this is why you shouldn't think it". If you take away "I feel" the sentence becomes: "You think I'm too old to understand". Again she is telling YOU what YOU think. How could she possible know what you think or feel unless she asks you? And the sentence is incomplete. Understand what? What is it that she is too old to understand? Mathematics? The internet? How abusive she is?

I've learned a good way to reply to this is "who told you I feel ______?" She then has to reply "no one told me" admitting that she made it up. If she replies off subject, repeat your question, "who told you I feel _____?"

For your own sanity and not to waste your precious time, I would never open up to her or attempt to have a conversation like this again. If you check out the Language of Integrity on the Sociopathic Style website, they go through 5 stages of communication. If you can't get past stage 1, there is no point in going to the next stage because the person doesn't care about you. This Hurts, but it's best to accept the truth and move on.

Read the Language of Integrity on: sociopathicstyle.com

Best,
wownowfree

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 362 Location: Minnesota

Thanks wownowfree, thayilflies, and windsong. by the way, I did go back and read the language of integrity and it is a great piece of work. says it like it is.

Like I have said before, I think she has a PhD in manipulation. Its how she survives. She jumps from one source of supply to the other. When she gets bored with one, she goes to the next. The problem for me is, she got her PhD based on her experience dominating, controlling, manipulating, and emotionally and physically abusing me. I still have trouble letting go of the anger that I was her THESIS. You cant get past stage 1, so you just have to accept the reality and move on. At first , that leaves this feeling of vulnerability at times, and this feeling like you just woke up and "what happened?" (hits side of head) So frustrating!! I am not blaming myself nearly as much now though. I can actually live part of my days and feel totally free of her. And how GRAND that is!!!!

Every once in a while, I think its good to go back and look at this stuff--the emails, the lists of their abuses, the posts here--and just REMIND yourself what you are detaching from so you remember how good it is NOW. No human being should have to put up with the crap these bullies come up with.

The only way I can make this kind of behavior fit with my world view is that God must have put these people here on earth to remind us of what evil is, and really open our eyes to what the DEVIL is. The thing I still have trouble accepting is WHY WOULD GOD DO THIS TO A CHILD? We can all learn without having it jammed down our throats when we are babies!

Even though you arent supposed to confront them though, I think my telling her how I felt, perceived, believed, did, and needed was what I needed to open my eyes to her, and I also think that was needed to "scare" her off. She realized she couldn't control me ANYMORE--that her "gig was up." She had refused to acknowledge that I was not HER for so many years- I had to do this to get her to LEAVE ME ALONE.

AND IT WORKED!!! So to the newbies, there is hope ahead!! I am living proof. When I first came here I doubted how others could say that. But now it is only 3-4 months later and it is all MUCH clearer now.

If anyone else has more observations, please feel free to comment. I need all the feedback I can get to bring myself through the last few stages of this detachment.
_________________
Once You Have Been Bitten By A Snake, You Are Very Cautious, Even Of A Coiled Rope.

The Dalai Lama

WindSong · Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject:

Oak-
You said:
"She had refused to acknowledge that I was not HER for so many years- I had to do this to get her to LEAVE ME ALONE. "

I had the same exact problem with my mother. You told me for YEARS that "You are just like me".. Till I screwed up so much on my own to get away from her.. Now she says she knows that we are nothing alike because she doesn't want to be affiliated with the mistakes that I made. I didn't realize screwing up would be such a good thing!

It's something about the murky waters of projection and mirroring that if all of us could figure that part out I think we would be halfway there.

I live in my nmom's house now, but I know the way to get her off of me is to start talking about things that I like.... Like music or the cats... things that she hates because I love them and she goes away. Just a thought if you ever have to go there with your sister again!
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I Love Little Steven And That Guy He Sometimes Plays With.
Confused and Dazed Administrator. Email me if you have any questions:
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eyeswideopen · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 212

Oaktree.. thanks for sharing that crazy coorespondence! Wow!!!
_________________
"The deeper that sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain. Is not the cup that holds your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter's oven?"
Kahlil Gibran

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 362 Location: Minnesota

windsong--just a question--are you really sure you "screwed up?' You wrote:

Quote:

I had the same exact problem with my mother. You told me for YEARS that "You are just like me".. Till I screwed up so much on my own to get away from her.. Now she says she knows that we are nothing alike because she doesn't want to be affiliated with the mistakes that I made. I didn't realize screwing up would be such a good thing!

this thought feels familiar to me--i thought that I did that too, until I realized that my "screwing up" was really only HER definition of screwing up--it wasn't mine. Yes I made mistakes, but I didn't judge myself as harshly as she did--actually, my own "critical parent" has been attached to HER beliefs for so long, I didn't even know WHAT I thought about my own actions. I now see that, yes, I did things to differentiate myself from her to survive, (supposedly this is why some people cut themselves after abuse--to know they are "alive"), but many many people would not see those things i did as "ghastly screw ups" like she would. Cuz I have asked other people, and they are like-"well thats pretty regular stuff that teens and young adults do." "its part of learning." I am trying very hard to take my WHOLE self back, not just the kid, and not just the grown up, but even my own "critical parent." Its hard, because they had ingrained in us so much that we were bad after we didnt meet every one of their expectations (like idolizing them), that we didnt know WHAT was good and WHAT was bad. At least I didnt.

You know, I actually remember being happy the first time my sister really F*d up, because then I could feel it was okay not to idolize her. SHEESH!!! How crazy is THAT? Confused

_________________
Once You Have Been Bitten By A Snake, You Are Very Cautious, Even Of A Coiled Rope.

The Dalai Lama

WindSong · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:47 am Post subject:

Not crazy at all! I so understand! I grew up thinking that I had to be like her and when I first heard my dad talking about the terrible things that she did to him, it was like a dam broke inside of me! It was like "oh hell yeah, she is wrong and I'm not crazy!"

I wish that I could say that my screw ups were screw ups that were treated as bad by her.. but I am afraid I did some massive screwing up my whole life.... but it was because of me trying to cope with her covert abuse of me. I grew up and got married at 19 and he beat the crap out of me so I came back home with 2 kids and a battered woman. She turned her nose down to me then and I knew that there was no just cause for her to treat me like shit on her shoe. I knew that I was right in leaving and I did the only thing I knew to do- I came to "family". I lived with her off and on and at the time I met the XNP husband she had almost broken my spirit. I had this man telling me that he loved me and would take care of me and my boys and it was a way out. I had been rebellious to her for so many years but I was so sunk into depression and she had finally beaten me down I was almost a goner. I would have been dead in a year I have no doubt. So when XNP came online and said Move here to me and I will take care of you and your boys, my ass was gone Oak, I swear.

And the funniest thing of all is this all was perpetuated by the XNP and it saved my life! I spent three years 70 miles away from mother and the N fog lifted and I got my life back. So in a way I can give credit to a psychopath for saving my life!

Thank you for this Oak. IN talking to you about your situation it's helping me talk about mine.
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Confused and Dazed Administrator. Email me if you have any questions:
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oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 362 Location: Minnesota

windsong--you brought tears to my eyes! your story really speaks of a life force--because something inside of you had not been totally beaten down and destroyed--somewhere-someplace along the line--in those early years--some ONE must have acknowledged you and affirmed your worth as a person. and you believed it, and that little bit that was left -even if just a flight response--it got you out of there and on your way to better days.

Since you had a taste of life without the nmom--you recognized it in the NxH when he started in, and good for you--you got out of that one too!!! No going back to any N excuse for a human again, right? pinky swear? I can tell from your posts that isnt even a remote possibility!! Very Happy

_________________
Once You Have Been Bitten By A Snake, You Are Very Cautious, Even Of A Coiled Rope.

The Dalai Lama

WindSong · Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:32 am Post subject:

Oh Oak! You brought tears to MY eyes! One person on this earth who always had my best interests in mind- My Granny. You are right. If I had been totally beaten down like I thought, I would have not taken off like I did. I totally did it in the right way and with the right thoughts in mind it was so half assed all the way....... But Granny was always there and always took care of me. When I was growing up every moment not in school was dedicated to being with my grandmother. She raised me as much as my parents did if not more. Thank you for helping me come to that realization. It makes me feel better and love my Granny even more. And it helps me to remember that there really was GOOD times in my childhood.

How about you? Did you have someone in your life that brought at least some positive balance to the abuse that you suffered due to your sister?

It's something. I'm 37 years old and feel like I should be finished with the "mommy issues" as I call them, but sometimes there are revelations and bitter feelings and acceptance situations almost on a daily basis. It's a work in progress! I came on here to help you and talk to you about you Oak, I didn't mean to get so into my stuff! I need to journal more!
_________________

I Love Little Steven And That Guy He Sometimes Plays With.
Confused and Dazed Administrator. Email me if you have any questions:
windsongsharmony@gmail.com

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 362 Location: Minnesota

Windsong--I very much understand what you are saying. My Dad was my rock, but he worked rotating shifts so alot of the time he couldnt protect me from her, but when he was there, he acknowledged me and protected me and made me feel like I was somebody instead of nothing. That made up for alot. When he died I really had no one. Mostly my teachers, who believed I was important. Thank God for them! My mother died a broken and very sad woman, because my sister abused her too. She wasn't a strong person. I think thats how my sister got so out of control in the first place. My mother indulged her as an only child for 16 years, and my Nsis just turned into this monster.

Dont feel bad that you are 37 and have "mommy" issues--I am 55!! Whats important is that you are facing it and sorting it out now and healing yourself. Age doesnt matter.
_________________
Once You Have Been Bitten By A Snake, You Are Very Cautious, Even Of A Coiled Rope.

The Dalai Lama

WindSong · Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:20 am Post subject:

Oak, this thread is supposed to be about you! I didn't mean to make it about me. Just talking to you brought me to some of my own realizations about my relationship with the Mother!

But it sounds like we have Granny and Dad to thank for still being sane. I would get out of school on Friday's and by the time I walked into the door of my house I was on my way to the phone to call Granny to go spend the weekend with her!
_________________

I Love Little Steven And That Guy He Sometimes Plays With.
Confused and Dazed Administrator. Email me if you have any questions:
windsongsharmony@gmail.com