Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

For those of you who are just learning about all of this crazy-making stuff and are wondering 'why on earth did he/she say that? why not just tell the truth??"


They lie because:


1) They KNOW their behavior/actions are wrong (if you aren't doing something wrong or offensive, there would be no reason to lie).

2) To evade responsibility and consequences for actions they KNOW is wrong. They want to do what they want, when they want without anyone calling them out on their offensive behavior - they just do not want to hear it, deal with it, etc... They'd much rather just act like you never existed than to deal with the fruit of their own nutty behavior in an adult, healthy and responsible manner.

3) They hope that you are not assertive enough to seek out the truth on your own so that, when supply runs out, they can recycle you and use you all over again, and again and again.

4) They live in a fantasy world where they are the greatest, wealthiest, fittest, best looking, most adored, etc... and deserve all of those things in return. The truth ruins their fantasy.



Pretty much the long and short of it in a nutshell and there is nothing attractive or endearing about any one of these reasons. In the case of infidelity, #3 reigns supreme.



Thoughts? Comments?? Please share your theories :D

loux

Very true Louxloux,

In addition, I'd have to also say they lie to themselves first and foremost. They justify, rationalize and blame everyone but themselves for their actions. To do less would break apart their false self and an N will do anything to keep from facing the reality of who he/she is.

There are also some studies that show N/P's process information differently than normal people. Their information is stored in bits and pieces in different places in their brains instead of the one area it should be stored in. As a result, accurate recall of events, use of words with the proper meanings (word salad) can be difficult for them to achieve.

They are amazing creatures!

I think maybe they lie to justify whatever it is they are doing. If you are doing something morally corrupt, you have to justify it with a lie otherwise you are admitting you are a monster. How could I be a bad person?!? That doesn't fit my constructed reality where I simply cannot be wrong (unless I choose to be wrong).

You think they know what they are doing is wrong? I'm not 100% sure about that. My feeling is that they simply can't discern between right and wrong. Right and wrong for them is their concept of right and wrong and that has nothing to do with the real tangible world.

But I don't know...

I think they make themselves up as they go along. Then start believing it.

Very Interesting,

My xN lied all the time and thinking back, most of the lies served the purpose of impressing me or making me feel inferior to him. It was not until he started lying about chasing after another woman while I was away, that my pride kicked in so that I could end it. I never got an apology, however he sent an email telling me that he had "demons" inside of him.

Well, that insight didn't last long, cause the next day he told me: "You just HAVE to accept my explanation". Well, I didn't and I won't.

It was around there that I went NC.

I'm currently dissecting my relationship with xN and it freaks me out that I don't know if a word he told me was true. Makes me feel physically ill..

They lie because the can get away with it, cuz their charm in the beginning is enough for us to ignore and forgive those lies until we wake up to the fact that they THEMSELF are one big lie.

great post loux :D

want to say, they lie, cos the truth is so bad, and because they know right from wrong.

x

great answers!

I hadn't really thought about them lying to justify their actions - to 'make' the lie the truth to fit their benefit. But they do do that. Or at least I think the one I was involved with did. If you think about that one, if they convince themselves, then it would be easier to convince others... so makes since in that regard.

I DO think they know right from wrong. I do think they know 'If I do this, I will go to jail', 'If I do this, it will piss her off', 'If I do this, I will have to cover it up'. I think those that are in jail just have less impulse control than those that manage to stay out, lol.

They do all the 'right' things to hook us initially during the idealization phase. I think they know that the D&D will confuse us and drive us 'batty'... they WANT us to look like the crazy ones to justify whatever BS they are telling the new NS.

They use right and wrong to MANIPULATE people to react a certain way. Not because doing right is a moral compass, or that wrong is a moral deterrant... but b/c both are just an end to their means. Both get the results they want at that given time.

loux

Hi Loux,

Really this is kind of interesting to explore. I hadn't thought about it too much in depth.

As far as lying goes, I think it is fairly obvious to normal people when someone is lying or has been caught in a lie. A normal person, when caught in a lie would feel humiliated and shameful. Would probably apologize.

But what happens when you catch an N in a lie? Normally, they will D & D you or fly into a rage. You get close to the truth, you get close to backing them into a corner where they cannot rationalize to themselves and they come out fighting.

It is hard to imagine, say for instance, the N's that tell blatant lies. The N that tells you he was in covert operations in the military between the ages of 18 and 25. Yet, you find out he never was. In fact, he worked at WalMart from age 18 to 25.

How could this person NOT know he was lying? Well, we really don't know how their minds work. For all we know, they could have watched Saving Private Ryan and incorporate this into their image to such an extent it becomes reality to them. Perhaps in their mind, they really were.

When an N lies, I believe that He/She believes their lies. Because we are talking about a personality disorder, a seriously messed up personality. And personality is the key. They invent their personality and hold onto the lies they create. Their false self is their survival.

So, I do wonder if asking if they KNOW they lie, thinking they MUST know they lie, is in a way, normalizing their behavior. Holding them to the same standard we hold a normal person to. It is so very hard to grasp the mind of a disordered person and NOT try to normalize them in an attempt to make sense of the whole thing. And that is really the problem. We really can't make sense of them or understand them because our minds are not capable of working the same way theirs work.

However, to me, a narcissist is completely different from a psychopath. I do believe a psychopath creates lies, knows they create them, knows they are lies but revels in the chaos and hurt they cause. Actually derives pleasure from hurting, confusing and getting over on people with the full intent of doing so. Psychopaths have no conscience, no moral compass, are fully aware of it and could care less. They love the thrill, the challenge.

The lying is so painful. It took me a while to realize that my narcissistic ex-husband was a pathological liar, and I could not believe a word that came out of his mouth – even inconsequential things. Like all narcissists, he’d constructed this false past life which he “sold” to me from the first day we met. Then one day, after we’d been married for years and had young children, in the middle of one of his verbally aggressive attacks, he suddenly told me that he’d lied about something that he had built to be a central part of his glorious past. I was stunned, and felt sick, like I’d been punched in the stomach. It wasn’t so much that he hadn’t done what he claimed, but rather that he’d been living this lie for all these years and I had believed it. I realized in that moment I had no idea who this man was. I knew nothing “real” about the man I’d been married to for years. It was so frightening and disturbing. I used to love reading detective/murder mysteries, but I had to stop after that, because I grew to believe my then husband could be living some secret criminal life behind my back, and was one of those disturbed criminals I’d been reading about. The last murder novel I read was about a woman who was married to a man who was a secret serial rapist/killer, and how she realized what she was married to. I put that book down and never picked up another one, because I could picture myself as that woman, married to a stranger with a horrible secret.

To this day I don’t really know the truth about my exhusband’s past, although, from other people, I have pieced together a general vague outline of it.

Part of what is so damaging about this is that I believed him for so long. I was in serious denial, I guess – so frightened that I had made such a huge mess of my life and had to make changes I didn’t even know how to make – that living in denial was preferable to facing the real threat.

Personally, I don’t think my ex-husband really believes his lies, but he believes that he has a right to that constructed false reality, even if it isn’t literally true, and is outraged when anyone tries to rob him of that constructed false reality. I don’t think that they literally believe the lies they make up – I don’t believe they are that delusional. I just think that they don’t believe anyone has the right to any “truth” other than the one that they believe they deserve. I’m pretty certain my ex-husband knows that the things he’s made up didn’t really happen, but he thinks that they SHOULD have happened, and therefore, no one should question it.

all of these posts describe my partner to a T. i could never work out why he lied, he tries to convince me that i doubt him cos im "insecure". i believed this until i had proof of the lies, even then when i confronted him he would make excuses, go mad or completely cut me out. it was only when he was diagnosed npd and i read about it i started to understand!
i think they lie to get away with things they know are wrong, and do things that are not acceptable so they can prove they can get away with it to stay in control. i think everything comes down to control of some sort.

I do not think there is anything new I can add, but to agree.
He used to say, why should I tell you, if nothing happened, it would only make you mad!
He also used to justify with it being my fault why he had to do it.
I will never know the real truth either. Or maybe I really do , but it is to hard to still digest.
PurpleGirl

"They use right and wrong to MANIPULATE people to react a certain way. Not because doing right is a moral compass, or that wrong is a moral deterrant... but b/c both are just an end to their means. Both get the results they want at that given time"

So they know right from wrong in terms of rules, social standards etc. For example, if I cheat on my wife this is wrong. I am not supposed to do this, I will get in trouble, I will look bad.

But there is no moral anchor there. They can't know what is truly right or truly wrong -- because they operate within their own constructed reality which is apart from the tangible world.

"I hadn't really thought about them lying to justify their actions - to 'make' the lie the truth to fit their benefit. But they do do that. Or at least I think the one I was involved with did. If you think about that one, if they convince themselves, then it would be easier to convince others... so makes since in that regard."

I am trying to think of an example. Like I can get angry with you when you have done nothing wrong and then I will create a pretext. I will make something up you have done to justify my outburst, to justify my insanity. But it will be something you have done to me. That will be the lie. It can never be my fault, you are to blame. You are always to blame.

I just recently found out that my twelve year marriage has been a lie. In the sixteen years that I was with this man, I NEVER suspected him of lying to me. Not even white lies. Now I know he is an N and there have been lies after lies. Lies about stupid things, but lies about very big things. Like money, women, and drugs. And I was oblivious to this all. Why would a person want to live a double life like this? Is it typical of Ns to have a dual life? The good family life and then the secret evil side? I still don't get it. And how could he have lied to me all those years and I was such an idiot? I TRUSTED him. I know it's insanity and it hurts like HELL!

My ex even used to "lie" about my own intentions. It was only when I realised, after breaking up, how far the lie had gone that I saw where these things came from. I thought he was "just" insecure.

For example, the time I forgot my contraceptive pill it was "a sign that I didn't really want to be with him physically". When I protested, he said "it was obvious from a Freudian perspective".

Or, one time when we failed to meet up for some trivial reason, he refused to listen to my side of the story saying "it is totally clear that you didn't want to meet with me. I see no reason to talk about it."

Is this just a total, incredible lack of empathy (do they really believe their version?) or do they do it to destabilise?

oh! fugu! Yes! My N mother used to do that. If I would do something for HER, she'd brag about how wonderful I was, but if I did something for myself or someone else, she would imagine the basest, lowest, most selfish and cynical reasons for my actions, and tell her friends and acquaintances lies about my motivations and intentions. The really crazy thing is, I would believe her when I was younger. It actually seemed more likely to me at the time that I was delusional about my own motives, than that my own mother was telling lies about me.

louxloux wrote:For those of you who are just learning about all of this crazy-making stuff and are wondering 'why on earth did he/she say that? why not just tell the truth??"


They lie because:


1) They KNOW their behavior/actions are wrong (if you aren't doing something wrong or offensive, there would be no reason to lie).

2) To evade responsibility and consequences for actions they KNOW is wrong. They want to do what they want, when they want without anyone calling them out on their offensive behavior - they just do not want to hear it, deal with it, etc... They'd much rather just act like you never existed than to deal with the fruit of their own nutty behavior in an adult, healthy and responsible manner.

3) They hope that you are not assertive enough to seek out the truth on your own so that, when supply runs out, they can recycle you and use you all over again, and again and again.

4) They live in a fantasy world where they are the greatest, wealthiest, fittest, best looking, most adored, etc... and deserve all of those things in return. The truth ruins their fantasy.



Pretty much the long and short of it in a nutshell and there is nothing attractive or endearing about any one of these reasons. In the case of infidelity, #3 reigns supreme.



Thoughts? Comments?? Please share your theories :D

loux

Very true.

Oh, the ways my N would lie, let me count them ..

he would pee on you and tell you it's raining.

If he were pinochio, he would trip everyone within a 200 mile radius.

He would lie right to your face or to the face of your family members (and did to me and mine!) and not blink or bat an eye, not studder, and pull it off as smoothly as if he were acting in a role. He would lie to you .. while lying to you .. while lying about why he was lying to you. (And did to me, his family, and everyone else.) He would lie to you at any time, any place, whether it was on your death bed or on your wedding day.

And that's no joke! :)

but seriously .. as for their lies:

The N lies to further his own grandiosity. It makes him feel more imporant, creates drama, conflict, chaos, and discord; and all N's love this because it creates more attention for them, ie. more supply. It puts the focus on them, and all N's love that too.

It doesn't matter what the lie is about -- it can be menial or substantial. He lies because he believes his own lies, because he is founded on nothing but lies, and because he believes them, he hopes you will believe them too. He's so used to lying both to himself and other people, the delusion of his own lies becomes second nature -- as easy as flipping a light switch and just as simple and walking and breathing.

As long as you truely love him, the N tells himself, he or she can lie as much as they want, and you, the pathetic lowly common person that you are, will of course believe him. He counts on it. Should you figure him out, he realizes the gig is up, runs and leaves you holding the bag (although my D&D was more drawn out than this, of course.) Bye!

It makes them feel important. Telling the truth to them is boring; lying creates a seperation between them and "normal people". Their specialness and uniqueness is hard-coded into their mindset; to have the biggest amount of distinction between them and the "commons", they need to lie because telling the truth is "ordinary" and "boring" -- just like they are, and hate being. Lying takes them away from this horrible truth -- that they are the very thing they hate.

They Know the difference between wright an wrong,but they do not care.
They chose only what is more "convenient" ,always,everywhere.
Their life is a double one ,because they cannot show their true feelings ,they have to mirror yours ,giving you a false image of their real being,thinking.They seem to consider themselves the best one,but they deeply hate ,despise themselves,so they behave (at the beginning) like "the men of dreams", the way they think you want:THIS IS THE TRUE LIE, THE IMPOSSIBILITY TO SPEAK ABOUT THEIR TRUE WORDL ,BECAUSE THEY CONSIDER IT GUILTY.

They understand what you want and they pretend to give you(for a while),"come tu mi vuoi",famous Pirandello's play;moreover they have often addictions(porn,sex) they surely can't speak about to you!

Horrible indeed,when we discover that unbelievable truth! I hope I made myself understood.

love

doctor wrote:They Know the difference between wright an wrong,but they do not care.
They chose only what is more "convenient" ,always,everywhere.
Their life is a double one ,because they cannot show their true feelings ,they have to mirror yours ,giving you a false image of their real being,thinking.They seem to consider themselves the best one,but they deeply hate ,despise themselves,so they behave (at the beginning) like "the men of dreams", the way they think you want:THIS IS THE TRUE LIE, THE IMPOSSIBILITY TO SPEAK ABOUT THEIR TRUE WORDL ,BECAUSE THEY CONSIDER IT GUILTY.

They understand what you want and they pretend to give you(for a while),"come tu mi vuoi",famous Pirandello's play;moreover they have often addictions(porn,sex) they surely can't speak about to you!

Horrible indeed,when we discover that unbelievable truth! I hope I made myself understood.

love

Well said. I do believe my N had a twisted sex/porn addiction yet, was a virgin (I found very young asian girl porn on his computer while I was there; of course, he lied and said his 'friend' did it, lol.) He also has this young-looking asian girl obbession/fetish and is 26.

Oh my. What a sad man ..

Dear Moveon,

I just want to try and offer you strength. I was with Him for 22 years -lived together 4 and 18 married. And yes he lived a double life all that time. First affair my daughter was an infant - he went after the married skank next door and got her - in both houses no less. Then who knows what in between , but another one called in 2005. I then had D-12 and s-7.

At that time he was building a house around the corner and never told me anything. He took loans and spent money he did not have. He told everyone but me we weren't getting along and the house was for him. Then the story he gave me was it was for a new start for US - since He would never move me away from the skank next door all those years.

Then he bought a shore house, property - I thought he was so successful and I was proud of what he was building and proving me and the kids WERE important to him.

We had been separated 6 months after that affair and he gave a shot at counseling - all things now seemed to be falling into place.

He was only home 4 months or so before the D&D started again and it was more intense than ever before. Although I did not know about NPD I knew in my gut it was not GOOD!!!

So I started to pressure him to get help, commit to the marriage or leave - I was done with the torture for 15 years at least.

He left and I found out:

He lied about how much he worked, investments, debt into 6 figures which I am liable for here in NJ, other women, Hells Angels club, and more - yes he led a double life the whole time and looked like THE GREATEST GUY to everyone else - still does pretty much.

I don't know why ANYONE would respect him right now after leaving 4 times in the last 2 years, treating his kids like crap, moving in the new house and leaving us next to his SKANK - you guessed it- He is back with her and IN LOVE LIKE NEVER BEFORE.

I am a 52 yr old , f/t working mom, middle class, no airs - like my friends , love to cook -all I ever wanted is a family.

Now I do have my great kids - but I have to share them with him

I am stuck in thios house

He has the new one for now and will not switch - he has the best of everything

He has one business and is building another

My daughter found pictures of women on the computer

This is not the life I dreamed about at 7 in my Holy Communion dress.

This is sick, vile, perverted, disgusting and so unjust for all of us who's only mistake was picking the wrong guy to love

If I could fix him I would - I am just starting to understand I cannot

Please know you are not alone- your pain is shared by many

I wait for justice - i pray it doesn't take too long

He has filed for divorce - and I do want a life ahead of me

Oh Newlife.

You just broke my heart and made me grateful all at the same time.

There are so many similarities between what I found out about my exN and what you went through. It makes me so sad.

He would have done the exact same if I'd married him. I know it. I learned about multiple IRS issues, lies about filing taxes, lies to people about owning property, lies about when he was going to work, lies about projects "in the pipeline" - of course lies about women. I sincerely took so much in retrospect - I didn't know about the affairs because that was a line I wouldn't allow crossed. I honestly thank God every day that I found an email from the OW that morning and had the strength to change the locks that day. I thank God I didn't marry him because I loved him so much - by the grace of God or something - I resisted that ring...

I had 8 years. But I so easily could have had as many as you had.

So on one hand, I'm grateful to hear your story. But on the other, I'm so sad it happened to you. I'm sad it happened to us. All of us.

:(

Thank you for sharing.

Newlife08,

Thank you so much for reaching out to me and sharing your story.

You said, "This is not the life I dreamed about at 7 in my Holy Communion dress." It helps so much when other people put words to the pain that I am feeling. I can totally relate. I fought against this inevitable end SO hard. I loved him so much and didn't want my marriage to ever end in divorce.

In the end I didn't have a choice. If I wanted to keep my family safe, I needed to leave him. I'm thankful that I could see that with clarity. But it still hurts.

I'm trying to accept that this happened to me and God allowed it. (This is what my mother and therapist are both telling me.)

I pray that we all can find healing after dealing with so many lies. My Codependancy book talks about learning to trust ourselves after being taught that we couldn't trust other people. We may have believed the lies, but now it is time to trust ourselves.

I still love my exN, but I know he is not good for me and now is the time to work on letting him go and it's time to take care of myself and my children.

Thanks again.

Yes , Knoxy the projects in the pipeline. He is always scheming for the next high - he really does have some aptitude - of course not the expertise he thinks - but he could do OK if he would just focus on one thing. He has always done side work and when our milk plant closed he went into it full time. He was lucky because of his personality to land some good commerical accounts. But eventually that same personality cost him the accounts - he started subing out work, not showing on the job-site, jobs gone done late by weeks or even months.

He even built a new house for us- we are in debt big time - but guess who is living in the BIG house - not me and the kids. My kids don't even have real bedroom where we are and he is in the 3 bedroom , 3 1/2 bath place he built for HIMSELF!!!! I don't think it was ever for us!!!! In fact just when we were ready to move in - HE LEFT!!!

He has gone from residential work, to commercial, to masonry, to building - and now ???? he is building a Potuguese B B QUe joint which is big here in NJ. WTH does he know about running a place like this???

An of course all the inventions in between, and the beverage delivery route, and the floor refinishing............insanity!!!



If it wasn't for reading what is here and knowing there is proof of what I have lived , he would have me where I was before and don't want to go back to - blaming myself for not being good enough.

I am more aware now of interpreting his words and actions and not taking them on - they still hurt and sting because he seems to have forgotten our history together. He always told me I was his best friend.

He could never imagine me not in his life...

Yet he has pushed me out to the edge of the cliffs and treats strangers better than me now,

And God allowed it...........this is the hard one for me....

I do not deserve this

my kids do not deserve this

It is emotionally cruelty at its worst

None of us here deserves this

And yet my God allows it....


I hope He also allows me to see His justice for the two of them!!!!