Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Seachelle · Site Admin Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 89

First, sorry for the long post. But my heart is broken right now and I need to get it all out. I hope that's okay.

Crying or Very sad

Well, my NPM sent an e-mail to my husband's account. It is really my account but she didn't know that. I created it because before she came to live with us she wanted to send my hubby an e-card and he didn't want her to have his "real" e-mail address so later I just used the account myself for times when message boards, etc. needed an e-mail address.

I sobbed after I read this e-mail. I have just never been so hurt before. I don't understand this--and I don't understand why she would outright lie to my husband when he's been with me all these years and knows the truth? Is she that delusional?

My husband said, and he is right, that to let her hurt or scare me is to let her win. But I can't help being hurt. I mean, wouldn't you be?
Hubby wrote back to her (pasted below her e-mail) and, I guess what I'm really afraid of is what she might do next. She terrifies me.

Anyway, in her e-mail (which I showed to hubby right away and I am very fortunate that my husband realizes this and has been very supportive of me) every single sentence is all lies with maybe a smidge of truth (such as, she did have a punctured ear drum in 1969 but it was because she hadn't had an ear infection treated and eventually had to go to the ER for it). I never, ever, have hit her.

Everything in her email is a lie too. I just don't understand why she would say these things and want to hurt me by trying to destroy my marriage and my life. We only tried to help her. Crying or Very sad

I never hit my kids (not to mention that she had never seen them as toddlers because she moved out of state)--but she sure beat the cookies out of me constantly when I was a child!-- and I sure would never hit a dog! I used to train and show dogs professionally!

I'm not having an affair with anyone--I have a happy marriage and I am active in city politics and on various boards and committees, that's why I'm on the phone a lot--with both men and women.

My kids didn't leave home early--one was 24 and the other was 23 when they left home--one to get married and one to buy a home near us. They phone us almost daily, just to gab.

I almost never swear and certainly don't use the "f" word.

She was never forbidden to answer the phone--in fact, she told me to take the phone out of her room because she wouldn't use it and the ringing bothered her when she was napping. And I'd turn the computer on and leave it on for her to use throughout the day! I don't even use that computer myself--I have a laptop.

She did sweep the screen room. But she also dusted. She wanted the chores. There was really nothing else I could give her to do--being disabled and elderly, she couldn't vacuum or mop floors or do yard work and I had already done major cleaning before she got here. I don't know what she expected. I bought her books and puzzles and word-book puzzles hoping to keep her happy and busy. Sigh. She liked those but refused to let us take her anywhere or do anything else.

I never told the kids she was dead. The truth is, until they were teenagers, hubby and I both bought gifts and put her name on them. She knows this--even hubby told her this when she was here. That was when we were NC with her, but we didn't want the kids to suffer for it so we bought extra gifts and signed her name.

The dishes she mentioned I "lied" about having are not "perriwinkle"--they are a bamboo pattern and I told her that many times.

And I crated her dog off and on for three days because the dog was in "standing heat" because my mother had never had her spayed. It wasn't a "punishment" of any sort! I have two male dogs who were constantly trying to hump her dog (even tho they are neutered they still have the urge to hump and lift their leg when a female is in standing heat). It was crate her dog or crate the males and it was just easier to crate her dog when she was in the house. But most of the time the dog stayed in the screen room with my mother so she was only crated when she came inside--and only for three days.

After my mother got here, she was fine the first week. Ate us out of house and home and we were glad! She had complained for so long that she had no groceries and no way to get them and was hungry. To see her finally eating was a huge relief. But during the second week she stopped eating and would only come out of her room to smoke (and smoke and smoke--I'm talking three packs a day-- and it made me soooo sick all the time because I have heart disease and allergies--that's where the post-nasal drip comes from-- that I couldn't even let the dogs out because I had to go thru the screen room.).

She then also stopped taking her meds.

That went on for a week, refusing to eat even tho we'd knock on her door and ask her to have dinner with us. We were getting frantic and we had no idea what was wrong. We tried to make her happy but we couldn't. Then she told hubby she wanted to go home.

Finally, she accused me of beating her dog and making it scream. Thing is, I had been feeding the dogs and she was in the screen room and there were kids in the pool next door who were laughing and screaming. That's what she heard.

Finally, I told her that if she wouldn't eat or take her meds and try to be a part of this family, she could not smoke either. At that point she was not even drinking water (that I knew of) so I told her that if she didn't start eating and taking her meds, I would call EVAC and have her taken to the hospital to be force fed. And she started screaming and said she would have me charged with abuse of an elderly person.

She then said her last husband had died 9 years ago on that day and she always does this the week before and the week after the anniversary of his death. Then she packed and hubby took her to a motel near the airport (he paid for it) and she caught a flight the next morning. She had wanted to just sit in the airport all night but all hubby could imagine was us being arrested for abandoning an elderly disabled person in an airport overnight (he said, 'who knows what she might tell airport security if they ask her why she's there alone?')

Well, for what it's worth, here's her e-mail. I have since configured the e-mail to delete her mails as spam.

And right now I'm really fighting to not hate her. I've always tried to forgive but this--this just hurts too much.

--------------------------------

subject: About ur money

My dear son-in-law...I am writing this to you because I firmly bel' v that you need to know this.... abt ur wife. I kept my mouth quiet on the day I left...no talking abt that mess whil driving to the airport. I was far too upset to discuss it anyhow, but now I am finally ready.

You wife is an abombination to this society. She has hit her own mother 2 times now and to me, thats an act of both abuse and cruelty. You were even there when she first hit me before you all were married. You can rem'b that time....you were there., and all over her lifting a 20 gallon fish tank while still having her stitches in after her surgery...I didnt deserve that, nor will I ever forget it coz it sent me to the hosp emergency room with a near punctured eardrum....well....

I have no reapect for her now...nor will I ever have a tiny morsel of respect for her.

I believe the law says one has to love their child, but we dont have to like them.
And I DON'T like her even a tiny bit any more. I dislike her intensly. I can now understand why your kids left home as soon as they could. It was to get away from their mother. I have seen her hit the youngest when he was just a toddler and you lived in ur first house, which I gave the two of you the down payment for the house from my commission I made selling the house to you both.

She's a very cruel woman...while I was there, she walked around the house using that F*** word...constantly. It was just F***, F*** all the time for no reason that I could understand. She would stop when time for you to return from work,

But then one day I DID understand why. You all have been married now for 40 +yrs I believe....watch her closely and you just may realize that there's an affair going on between her an that another man ...thats why I was forbidden to answer the phone...She also knew that a friend called me daily while I was there at 4 PM...even so, she would not let me answer the phone even knowing it was for me.

I never want to hear from OR abt her ever again...should she die before me, I dont want to know...EVER...that she has passed. I suppose this is all I have to say now...rest assured you will get back the noney I owe you, but it will be perhaps slower than I had anticipated...bear with me on that please...it WIIL be forthcoming but it will be sent to where you work, not to ur home as I dont want her to get her hands on it...you loaned it to me and YOU will re'cv the payment back, not her.
Not her ever.

I had just began to get to know you, and I thought of you...and still do... as the son I never had.....Again ur wife never gave me the opportunity to get to know my marvelous grandchildren and thats a true pity for the three of us. She said to me that she told them both I was DEAD, many yrs ago..Pity, that.

Please just destroy the paperwork you and I had notorized when you were here coz I have had them all changed now and I did that immediately upon my return home with a new Att'y What she now holds is totally worthless. to her. I have entrusted my worldly goods to someone else now, one who would never, ever treat me so shabbily. Oh, and by the way, please keep ur eyes open on the "council" meetings she attends....there's a man there called "XXXX"...all I can tell you is that he calls there daily, 2--3 times a day and they also talk on the computer for hours each day.....Sorry to burst ur lil bubble abt ur yrs of marrige to her, but this is the God's truth.

I will maybe be forced to send you the money in smaller increments than I had planned and God help me I hope to send it all at once and soon, but NEVER to the house and it will be a certified check made out to you ONLY.....I will be sending it to ur office and marked "Personal and Confidential"....Oh, and one more thing for you...she DOES NOT have a post nasal drip in her throat...in my 17 days there, she never did that annoying thing during the daytime or when she was on the phone with anyone...it all starts at 4 PM and continues while you are home...its a nervous thing that you will soon be home and fear of you finding out she's talkining on the phone and internet with this fellow council person.....

Thats all for now and forever as it breaks my heart that she has done this to all of us and ur children also....Pleae take care of urself and my grandchildren also....
I have no daughter now and for ever more....
Please dont become angry over this mail...I know she has ur password to ur email and she may get this and destroy it before you can read it....but thats okay coz I will just re-write it to where you work and pray noone opens ur mails there.....I will mark it PERSONAL and CONFIDENTIAL if I am forced to remail it, pending her opening it. Try to read this and immediately destroy it or hide it....in a special net folder...this is for ur eyes only and it took courage for me to write it anyhow.....

While I was there, she would NOT let me do anything other than sweep out the enclosed porch. Thats it.

I was told to NEVER, EVER answer the telephone if it rang while she was outside or at the grocery store. Why do you suppose that is ?.....Theres a very simple reason for her reluctence for that...I hope you have figured this out for urself by now.
I was not permitted to either turn ON or OFF the comp....she had to do it for me....Why was that?...It was the same reason I couldnt answer the phone.
She also told me I could NOT smoke on even the porch anymore.

Well, I will stop writing you now and forever, tho I would like to know if you rec' v this or not, with her having ur password and all....if you want to write me, ever, please just get urself a new name and password...its all that easy and tell no one....
she "lies" so very much and I have kept all her past emails to prove this to anyone.....so be it .
bye to you.....ur mother-in-law

PS for you.....Where does she get all this rage and intolerance she has so bottled up inside her ?This lady friend I pal around with, just found it too hard to believe that a mother could treat her daughter that way....Her lies are so damaging...she even sent me an email about ur stepmother married to ur dad...told me in 2 separate emails that she had sent her boxes of this Perriwinkle dishware that she gave to her when ur Dad and she moved into theat assisted living arrangement....when I asked her to show it to me when I was there the first time with you, she denied ever having said or rec'vd this very worthy and costly paraphanalia from ur dad's new wife.....And tell ne true now....did she accompany you to ur mother's funeral when she passed ?....I just bet you she didnt coz she wont leave those dogs long enough for a funeral....she already told me that when my time comes to leave this world, she would not be there coz she cant leave the dogs.....and speaking of the doggies, let me now inform you that if she ever contacts me or gives me any more grief at my age and with my many health problems, I will certainly see that all of her doggies will be taken away from her.....the law in any state now is no more than 4 dogs per household...I realize my dog would be the first to go or be put down but I will risk that, even tho my dog is the youngest of them ....she "crated" my dog many times when I as there...as if to show me who the house boss was there...I know she takes good care of the doggs and thats why I gave my dog to her, but if ever I hear a word abt her harming my dog in any way, I will see the dogs are takesn away from her,,thats a promise to you .....it was very unfortunate, but I saw her mistreat my dog while I was there and also several of the other doggies too....she does have her favorites and those who are not her favorites are in for a bad haul depending on how her day is goingy any particular day.

I would suppose I will never see my doggie again...well, thats to be expected...I know that now...I am not an advocate of this "crate" business as a form of punishment for a doggie......you can please alert her that I will notify the Animal Control abt her having all her dogs, sometimes 2 more doggies in her house (when she doggie sits for her friend) there....they will give her 5 days to find homes for all or kill them and then perhaps she can once again, if ever, become a proper person and you an all have a proper home life without those doggies underfoot....this is the law, and I will see it carried out if ever I hear of any more "punishments" metted out to my doggie...and I do have ways of finding these things out, trust me on that. I was'nt president of the Humane Society for 2 yrs 30 years ago for nothing....I gained much knowledge....abt the care and the love that doggies need

Okay...I have said my piece now and will end this.....take care of urself and do let this woman, whom I used to call my daughter...settle her life and release all that rage that she carries around in her heart....she used to be a diff person.....she's now a bad woman and not a child who used to throw all those tantrums, laying down on the floor and kicking her heels on the floor and hanging, hanging, hanging on me and whining....she should try to be a decent person now that she's becoming an older woman.....I debated writing this mail to you but I have discussed this with my priest and tho he didnt and couldnt advise me on anything, he has helped to to try to understand abt mothers and children......
I sincerely wish I had a son like you....sorely wish that you WERE my son...but alas.
You WILL get ur money...please trust me on this and I wish you a long and a healthy life....God will take care of you...He knows you bel'v in him and worship every week.....
I love you, my son in law...so sorry all this didnt work out for us....
You have a good life for urself.....I have now placed her on the back burner of my life.....that thats a "forever" thin line now....
ciao...and you can please let me know......somehow....that you have re'cvd and read my feelings here.
Caio...and much love to you and plase try very hard to understand this mail. Thnx....ur mother-in-law

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My husband's reply:

This email comes as quite a shock. I am amazed at the apparent anger and hostility that you have put into these allegations. Let me assure you that my wife and I have no secrets from one another. We have the freedom to read each others emails at any time but also respect each others privacy, that's called trust.

Many of the items you have mentioned do not even deserve a response, particularly when events of so long ago are dredged up and twisted to your own fantasies. I realize that you and my wife have had a stormy relationship in the past and I feel bad for the both of you. It was our hope that when you came to live with us that maybe the two of you would be able to develop a mother/daughter relationship. Maybe things were said by the both of you in anger and frustration but remember the living arrangement was new to both you and us and it's sad that things ended the way they did.

Despite the way things ended here, not a day goes by that my wife doesn't wonder if you are ok. She has worried continuosly that you have enough to eat and that you are able to get your meds. So to say the hurtful and untrue things you have said puzzles and disturbs me greatly.

You certainly are entitled to you feelings and memories as you see them but I would hope that you can put these aside and simply move on. It would seem that hostility, anger and inuendos do no one any good.

As far as the money goes, both my wife and I made the decision to pay your taxes and help you financially. We were in a position to be able to help out at the time and we were glad to be able to do it. So since you, as well as others, gave us the money for the downpayment on our first house 40 years ago, maybe we should just call it even.

bubblers · Joined: 31 Dec 2007 Posts: 35

Seachelle,

Wow! Is your mother, my grandmother? We are going through this exact same thing in our household. It is sad when they get old and start making this stuff up out of nowhere. You're so lucky to have a husband as loving an supportive as he is. Just my two cents, but it almost seems as if you have a mix of a narcissist and senility/dementia on your hands. My great grandmother would acuse me of stealing her money, when I was 5 yrs. old. And now my grandmother is saying the exact same things, that we're ( hubby and I) are having family gatherings and not inviting her, we're not calling her(not true) she just doesn't remember and not helping her when she needs it. She has a very "Selective Memory" . I've washed my hands of the situation and if any other aunts or uncles want to jump in and care for THEIR mother, more power to them. If your mother has access to phone, internet, email, then she has ways to find help she needs if it ever gets that bad for her. You've done all you can do and bless you for doing it, because I wouldn't beable to take my grandmother in. Bubblers

Serenity710 · Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 84

Hi Seachelle,

I'm Serenity710 -- I've been on the group for a couple of years but haven't posted much lately.

First of all, you are entirely within reason to be hurt beyond belief. Your NM is very, very hurtful. To be hurt is normal and natural -- it doesn't mean that she has won. All these years our dysfunctional parents prohibited us from feeling our real feelings. Now, as an adult, you get to feel them as long as you want to. You have the right to be hurt. Your mother is a horrible Narcissist.

Second, people with NPD lash out when they are challenged or attacked -- or even ignored. If we don't give them N Supply, they lose it. Any attention is better than no attention for a person with NPD.

I have been through similiar experiences with my own NM. When I confronted her about the way she treated me, she lost it and lashed out. I was so hurt and couldn't understand it.

Then I came to this discussion forum, and I read books like "Children of the Self-Absorbed," and I realized that there was no changing her. She was disordered, and always would be, and her treatment of me would always be abusive -- unless I was giving her undying flattery and adulation.

Well, I can't do that. So I have chosen the other two tools of recovery: NC and JADE. No Contact, and no Justifying, Arguing, Defending or Explaining as to why I have No Contact. Anyone who knows my NM knows why I have NC, and they are supportive of me.

It took me a very long time to get to this point. Probably about 10 years after I first realized how abusive she was, and about 6 years after I started really learning about NPD.

All my best to you, Seashelle. You are not alone. Your mother doesn't deserve a daughter like you. Give your love to someone who can return it to you. Most of all, give your love to yourself.

--Serenity710

Seachelle · Site Admin Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 89

Thanks, bubblers.

LOL, I used to live in an area of the country that called drinking fountains "bubblers'.

Anyway, yes, she is getting senile in many ways. Hard of hearing. Hallucinates sometimes--she once told me two men were peeking in our privacy fence and rattling the gate but there was no one there. She won't use one of her bathrooms because she swears every time she does a 'possum (or raccoon sometimes) runs over to the skylight to look at her. Sigh. Sometimes she doesn't hear well, gets dates and people wrong--example, she told me she attended my high school graduation and we sang a certain song, she wore a mink coat and took me out, etc. Thing is, she wasn't there at all. My dad and stepmother were there, not her.

I am sorry to hear of your troubles too but glad to know you're coping.

Before this, although I didn't want contact, I couldn't bear to leave an animal hungry. I'm the type of person who goes and buys good for derelicts I see with signs that say "Hungry". I thought I had compassion. But now? Now I think I've lost any compassion for this sick, twisted person.

I told my husband that now that I've had a couple days to get over my grief over this, if she does try to harm my dogs or tries to further damage my reputation or marriage, then I'll pull out all the stops and have her committed. I have tons of evidence--before we took her in, she would send me sometimes up to 15 e-mails a day and want to chat too.

I feel as if I've aged a lifetime in the past couple months. And now I'm experiencing anger. I hope that's normal because I'm not usually an angry person--I try to understand and put myself in the other person's shoes, usually.

Good luck, bubblers!

TruthSeeker2 · Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 32 Location: New York State

Hi, Seachelle and all others here, Wink

Wow, Seachelle, your story is heinous, just plain heinous, one of the worst I've read here. Another shocker was baby kay's, who I got to know on some other topics where you posted as well.

First of all, Seachelle, perhaps you've changed your mind about how wise it was to have ever taken this demon into your home based on your compassion. When I read your reasons for having taken her in and that you don't regret having done so, I said you're very altruistic and that a lot of us could never do that. It's not for everyone. That was a polite way of saying "stupid move". I didn't want to hurt your feelings in any way, but now I'm going to say it as it is. Well, perhaps now you see it wasn't really for you, either. That you're still willing to help her from a distance is okay, and that's what I want to emphasize here. DISTANCE is very important to have between an NP and you. It is a survival mechanism. Your NM took advantage of your good and compassionate heart. That's what NP's do, look to use a weakness they perceive in you as a means to their end. Any time you do something for an NP, especially something sacrificial like you did, rest assured it will come back to haunt you. Therefore, learn from this and never do it again.

What your NM did when she moved into your home was to invade it. It gave her an opportunity to gather information, to get the lay of your particular land so she could eventually use it against you, and now she has. Do you see that now? As bubblers told you, you've really done all you can do. Let her go and don't concern yourself with what happens to her and let it get to you. She has reaped what she's sown - evil. Twisted Evil

You let a snake into your house and knowing NM is a snake, didn't you realize at some point she would bite you? After all, she's what she is. I'm alluding to that popular moral story about the snake who tried to convince someone to pick him up and put him into his coat to warm him. When the snake bit him, the person asked why, and the snake said he was still a snake. N's are human snakes. They can't help but to venomously bite. Twisted Evil

DISTANCE is something I've always kept from my NM even though she has always tried to lure me in. I would never take her in or go to live with her. She even made an offer to buy a 2-family house with us. I'd rather die first than ever be in so close a proximity to her where she could get at me. We live 60 miles away, close enough for a visit but far enough away so we can't be at her beck and call. Really, Seachelle, that's what you need to do. Now that she's gone home, how far away does she live from you? If it's far enough away, good. Keep that distance. Keep that boundary. If she lives too close for comfort, MOVE, if you can. I have a cyberfriend and fellow sufferer who moved four (?) states away. Unfortunately for her, she's married to an NH, so she's still suffering big time. Crying or Very sad

You're very blessed to have such a kind and understanding husband who appreciates and loves you. He protects and shields you and comforts you when you're hurting. He even wrote your NM that very articulate and level-headed e-mail. If I had been the one to write it, I would have been a lot more forceful. I guarantee you your NM will not understand what he wrote. I'm fortunate and blessed to have a Superman of a husband who is my buffer against my NM. I don't know what I would do without him, which is why, I suppose, God blessed me with him. He knew I would need such a man. Take comfort in and enjoy yours! Smile

You asked why do they lie and destroy lives, especially the lives of those closest to them. In another topic, I explained the nature of evil in this world from the standpoint of the Bible, which is what I believe. I did that close to the time when I first started posting here in May. I will just say briefly here that we live in a sinful and fallen world. When God kicked Lucifer out of Heaven, where do you think he landed with all his fallen angels - here. And he's been corrupting this world ever since. If you want to read what I wrote about that in more detail, it might be in one of the first topics I posted in. Dr. Vaknin is a narcissist himself. I found that out while reading his discussion with Dr. Peck, who believes N's are evil and is not afraid to say so. Perhaps Dr. V was hesitant to call N's evil because that would mean then that he himself is evil. I believe N's are evil, as Dr. Peck does. What they are is so horrific it goes beyond mere sickness. Twisted Evil

Seachelle, you spoke of the degree of hatred, anger, loss of compassion for her (Remember sympathy for a devil is a door that lets him in.) and the resolve to put her away if you have to. Resolve is good. It shows you've become stronger. The buck stops here! Well, welcome to the club! You're normal! Perhaps you had to get to this point of no return with her before you could start to heal, and the feelings of rage are a part of the process. Perhaps now you can better protect your boundaries and deal with evil from a position of strength. I found out about NPD a couple of months ago and am still in shock Evil or Very Mad

over the magnitude of this evil. Gotta accept the fact that half my DNA comes from an emotional soul-sucking serial killer. The tremendous rage is there, too, along with being in a constant state of fight or flight anxiety. We all go through it. Evil or Very Mad

If you don't have a therapist, do find a good one who can help you through this process and give you affirmation and strength. Smile

I really hope what I've said here has been able to help you and encourage you along the path to healing. Keep up the good fight! Very Happy

_________________
Be civil to all, social with some and known by few.

lynn1234 · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 718

Seachelle..
I am sorry to hear what your mother has put you through recently..It reminds me that N's need constant attention and they don't care if it is negative or postitive as long as they are in your life..

N's will try to force their way back into our lives when we have backed off.. I don't know what triggered your mothers anger.. maybe she feels that she isn't the center of your life and you have backed off a little bit or maybe she is just angry from something totally irrational.. In anycase it reminds me of a situation I had with my NM.. She said something to me that really pissed me off and when I confronted her about it she lied and then tried to make me look like the bad guy to my husband... my NM has always tried to poison my relationship with my husband usually in suttle gaslighting ways.. She used to plant doubt in my head about his sincerity on things and told me lies like he is controlling etc... My NM has also slandered me to my husband when she hasn't gotten her way with me...

These N's think they can fool everyone and they can fool some but not us.. I think this causes some of their anger towards us... Also, they think that our Husbands would actually go against us and side with our N mothers.. My NM slandered me to my husband last year and then wanted him to see her twisted side of things but my husband did what your husband did. He protected me and sided with me to my NM's shock and surprise.. These N's are so used to manipulating people they do it all the time.. They are big bullys and can't handle it when people don't bow down to them and give them their way even if their way is distructive or hurts you... they don't care who they harm as long as they get what they want and if it's not given to them then watch out!!! They will start a slander campaign to all who know you....
We have to come to a point where we are strong and can not let the slander affect us.... Recently I have let go of worrying what my NM says about me to my grandmother.. My NM has also slandered my husband to all my relatives and painted him in a disgusting light even though he is one of the most gentle kindhearted people you will ever meet.. I still get pissed off about that but for the most part I have let that go.. I can't control what my NM does and I can't control what other people think when she does her slander campaign..
But NC keeps my frustration down with her...Just yesterday my NM called my husband again. She is trying to get back in with me and thinks she can manipulate my husband..But he knows she is an N and I have chosen NC...so she can't win this battle...Now, for the most part I don't care what she says to anybody about me.. If they can't see through her B.S now they will later so I have hope that I will be vindicated.. Already and uncle of mine thinks she is totally crazy because of something she did to him when he was sick.. she was hopeing to inherit some money if he died... she started to get in the middle of him and his wife.. So other people war seeing what she does... I am not gloating over it, it actually makes me sad but at the same time... I just want to encourage you to not let your mothers slander or twisted lashing out on you hurt you too much.. She is a sick person with a mental illness and the email was a symptom and evidence of her disorder... Your husband cares about you and loves you.. you have eachother.. your NM will probably go into hideing now for awhile since she didn't get the reaction from you or your hubby that she was hopeing for.. I think that she was hoepeing that he woud side with her but it didn't happen... N crazy makeing..... Confused

lynn1234 · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 718

I just wanted to say that I think it is perfectly normal to feel the way you did after getting your NM's email... just that be encouraged.. your husband is by your side and your NM didn't cause the devide that she wanted between your husband and you....
Take care...

Seachelle · Site Admin Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 89

Truthseeker2, I am very fortunate that my NM lives more than 1500 miles away.

I still don't believe in evil people, only sick people who may do horrible things to others. I don't understand why you believe Dr. Vankin is an N. Did he say he was? Or do you believe that only because he doesn't believe N's are evil, only sick? I'm sorry, I haven't read his discussion with Dr. Peck, which is why I'm asking you to explain further.

No, I would never take her in again. My husband tried to warn me but even he felt so sorry for her and so we took her in. I won't do it again. This time the NC is permanent.

Thanks.

Seachelle · Site Admin Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 89

Lynn1234, you mentioned your uncle realizes your NM is crazy.
Gotta tell you, my NM had 5 siblings who all had NC with her and, in fact, two sisters and one brother went so far as to leave directions and money for us to hire security guards to barr her from their funerals. Another aunt and I followed their instructions.

Hearing your story, and reading others in the other forums here, I realize I'm not alone and while that makes me glad, I feel so bad that we all have this in common. Good luck to you and thanks for your reply.

TruthSeeker2 · Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 32 Location: New York State

Hi, Seachelle,

From your posting of Thurs., 6/5/08:
"I still don't believe in evil people, only sick people who may do horrible I c things to others. I don't understand why you believe Dr. Vankin is an N. Did he say he was? Or do you believe that only because he doesn't believe N's are evil, only sick? I'm sorry, I haven't read his discussion with Dr. Peck, which is why I'm asking you to explain further."

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Here's the link to that article: http://www.narcissisticabuse.com/evil.html

Here's a quote from a section of the article (entitled "Evil"):

"STOPPING THE NARCISSIST and Concept of Evil

Dr. Peckl If you have ever lived in quiet desperation fearing the release of rage from the narcissist, then decided to stop the abuse, you have been the victim ofa campaign designed to destroy you. It is as systematic and well-thought-out as that of any battle plan of war.

Sam Vaknin disagrees: As opposed tot hwat Scott Peck says, narcissists are not evil - they lack the intention to cause harm. They are simply indifferent, callous and careless in their conduct and in their treatment of their fellow humans.

Dr. Peck: I READ THIS AND RECOGNIZE THE NARCISSISM IN THE WORDS. BECAUSE SAM IS A NARCISSIST, he can say "simply indifferent". Sam does not see that indifference is never simple. The results of indifference, callousness and carelessness are destructive and malignant. In a talk he gave at the White House, Elie Wiesel, concentration camp survivor and philosopher, says that from anger and hatred we can often make a difference, but to be indifferent is evil."

Remember that Edmond Burke quote: "All it takes for evil to thrive is that good men do nothing."

I put in bold upper case letters the part of this quote where Dr. Peck says Vaknin is a narcissist and then explains why he said that. Believe me, I wouldn't make this up about a person. I agree with Dr. Peck, not Sam Vaknin. I see Vaknin trying to weasel out of Wiesel's statement. I agree with Wiesel, too. Righteous anger against evil is the only way to deal with it. God has righteous anger and so can mankind when faced with abuse, injustice and anything wrought by evil people. Indifference is being a Caspar Milquetoast and by omission and default allows the evil to go on. Indifference is a facilitator of evil. One can't have sympathy for the devil, as I said before, or be indifferent and lukewarm when dealing with evil. Notice the two words - evil is devil without the d. I find that to be very interesting, because the devil likes to hide his evil. What an illustration of the nature of evil those two words actually are. It's almost as if he took the d out so you wouldn't see he's there and that he's the source of all evil.
Twisted Evil

Do you understand it better now? Why not look up the entire article for yourself?

I still say, Seachelle, that you can't afford to have compassion on your NM because she will use it against you. No sympathy for a devil. These types need to be dealt with by righteous anger, force and strength. Mad

It's good that your NM is so far away. Make sure she stays far away . . .
_________________
Be civil to all, social with some and known by few.

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Seashelle, what your mother did to you is really a demontration that N can NOT feel love or empathy. I am really sorry that she sent you that @#$% e-mail and I feel your pain. I disagree with Truth Seeker, though. The concepts of devil vs. evil as express by T.S. is purely a religious one. Seachelle's mother is mentally ill. A mental illness that she did not ask for, maybe a predisposition to mental disease she was born with and, possibly, abuse of some sort that she endured when she was a child. What she does now is nasty and causing Seachelle incredible pain that she doesn't deserve and should not endure. So NC is a great idea/solution. If we are angry it is fine to feel angry too. I certainly was very angry for years. Even without knowing about narcissism I knew that my NM behavior was unjust, irrational and unloving.
What I disagree with is to demonize a disease. It does not make any sense to me. Even if we consider evil as defined by Webster, we don't really know how much of the N behavior is actually a choice, libero arbitrio or just a incredibly strong, mostly subconscious drive to do what they perceive is needed for the survival of their facade, that to them is really the survival of themselves. Staying away seems the best choice, otherwise we have to emotionally detach from them and see them for what they are, with an anthropologist eye...

thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 499

On the topic of "evil." When people are ignorant they behave in ways that we sometimes call evil. When Christ was nailed to the cross what did he say: "forgive them for they know not what they do." They know not what they do.

My personal feeling is that "evil" is a myth. People are conduit to err but evil isn't inherent in anyone. No one is born evil. People are conditioned to hate the world and are conditioned to be morally blind. But in the same way that you can't condemn the visually blind for bumping into you, you can't condemn the morally blind from acting out of ignorance. They know not what they do.

Doesn't mean you should subject yourself to other people's insanity but it is difficult to point the finger at someone who doesn't know better. I believe that it is dangerous to categorise people into "good" and "evil." Each and every person is blinded by the veil of ignorance to varying degrees.

We can attribute other peoples stupid and strange behaviour to "evil" if we want to but it is of no use. It is unfortunate that people act out of toxicity and to be on the receiving end is a bitter pill to swallow but they know not what they do. Simple as that.

TruthSeeker2 · Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 32 Location: New York State

Thanks, limited, for your input, Wink

Are you an anthropologist, per chance? I don't deny you made some very valid points about NPD being a mental illness and the circumstances that create it. You are right about that, but you're addressing the symptoms of evil, not the source, and unless you address the source, you can't in my view effectively fight evil. Speaking of disease, treating the symptoms may bring temporary relief, but it won't cure the disease. I know a lot of people nowadays feel uncomfortable with the concept of God, the devil and religion in general, especially the Judeo-Christian, Biblical explanation of the origin of evil. That's because it gets a little too close to home, and people just don't want to deal with the problem of sin. However, one can't avoid it in discussing evil or to be effective in fighting against it. It is on the very primal and elemental level spiritual warfare. In explaining evil and whether or not the word "evil" should be applied to NP's, I go to the very core of the origin of evil. Twisted Evil

You have every right to express your opinion here, limited, but how can we fight an enemy if we refuse to see exactly who and what it is. NPD is a mental illness for which there is only the slimmest hope of a cure, because these people refuse to see where the problem originates and blame everyone else but themselves. Where do you think mental illness comes from when you get past genetics and environment? Why are there such things as mental illness to begin with? Because we live in a fallen world. NPD is the result of evil and is evil, no two ways about it. Few of us "normal" people ask for the things that befall us in this fallen world, but because of the condition of the world, they are bound to happen. There are people who choose evil. There is random chance. There are those who will do anything to survive and do it without a conscience. They are called psychopaths. People like Seachelle's mother go beyond sickness. My NM, though not as overtly malevolent, made her choice and she is evil. That is not an easy thing to come to terms with, for sure, and the shock Shocked

of it is where I presently am on the journey to wholeness. It doesn't help the sufferer to pussyfoot around it and make excuses for (enable) the NP. Confused

Why is it we made the choice to not follow in the NP's footsteps or let them defeat us? Because we were born with a conscience which guides us toward goodness and they weren't. They are evil. Period. Exclamation

_________________
Be civil to all, social with some and known by few.

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Truth Seeker,
You have the right to say what you believe in this forum too, but you seem not to be able to see past your religious believes. Mind that the definition of faith is to believe in something that can not be proved, and the very essence of faith is shared similarly by fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims or atheists. They all believe something that is not provable. I am not uncomfortable with the concept of God; I just think that more likely than God creating humans, humans created God to fulfill their own needs. But…who knows. I am really an agnostic.
Said that, when I talk about genetic predisposition and severe early child abuse, I am not talking about symptoms, but about etiology, the cause of the disease. If you want to go further then that, you end up in the research field of neuropsychology where they try to understand the basic mechanisms behind brain dysfunction . The symptoms are the lying, raging, condescendence et cetera. That is why I don’t think devils and evil have any place here. There are mental illnesses just the same way that there are other illnesses. I am sure you wouldn’t think somebody with diabetes has an evil nature, or like somebody stated, quite a few years ago, that AIDS was the rightful punishment for sinful gays.
NPD cannot be cured because the individuals affected are incapable of seeking treatment and incapable of self-analysis. Their very emotional survival lies on continuous lies that shore up a warped, shriveled, undeveloped child’s ego. There is no enemy to fight, unfortunately for us, just our sick parents that don’t love us, don’t care about our feeling, but are consumed with boosting their own image. NPD don’t need to be enabled, they are not able to be anything but NPD independently from our behavior or positions. More then fighting “evil” we need distancing. Emotionally for sure, or emotionally and physically. My personal belief is that we did not turn N (even though some of us may have some traits) because we had a “witness”, a person in our family or that we knew, that gave us a modicum of love and empathy. That was our lifeline.
Sorry for the length of the post!

ricochet echoes · Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Europe

Hi Seachelle

I understand completely how you feel.

My NM has done all that also. What I find is that they are so infantile in their logic that often the things that they have done themselves pray on their minds and are turned around and pinned on another person. They are not capable of just keeping their mouths shut about it - they have to actually physically or verbally turn it around on someone else - usually their favourite victim whom they spend years trying to ruin reputation-wise.

It like the childish situation- : "did you do that bad thing?"and the child says "no! it was Ännie who did it, not me". Or they even make up the story first so they don't get as far as the point of being asked if they did ït or not in a one step further situation, they usually behave this way as adults when they are caught out behaving in a way that is not acceptable and they deflect the blame on to the person that they have spent years conditioning and ruining for just such a purpose. They also get a kick out of adding bits into it to make themselves a victim into the bargain.
You, as we all are, in varying degrees are their own personal scapegoats designed and conditioned to save their miserable skins.

I think that your NM has done something that you dont know yet 'what it is" - or has been caught out doing/saying something by someone or is planning to do something.... is my guess, which she has to deflect on to you either in advance or in hindsight and to back it up she is writing to your hubby.
Also there are many complex feelings mixed in with this like sick jealousy, not being able to bear the happiness or wellbeing of that person etc.. so they just have to try and mix up some trouble - its a compulsion that accompanies NPD as far as I have noted from my NM.

I have learned to think ahead of my NM (we really have to be 1 step ahead when dealing with them and be aware how theiir minds are ticking)and am able to catch her out as to that she has done something or said something most of the time, because I usually get that warning when she writes something similar to the email you got or makes a telephone call to my husband to tell him stuff about me and how she is a poor victim to something I have done.

Sympathy to you, the only thing that you can hang on to in these situations is that you know the truth, and the people who are worth knowing also know it Sad

RE