Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

a basic question...please help, thanks.

I was discussing this with a friend, and we concluded, perhaps rather simplistically, that a psychopath has no conscience, and the narcissist has a conscience of some kind, but suppresses it.

There is probably more to than that, but we were keeping it simple.

After all I've read about narcissists and psychopaths, they seem very much the same to me. Neither has a conscience. How does the narcissist manage to supress his conscience anyway? Is not lack of display of conscience proof of absence of conscience? Do narcissists ever act on their conscience or show it?

they both lack empathy
they are both abusive
they both have a need for control

many more than that, though.

hi windinthetrees, I know you posted this a while back, its a good question so wanted to share this link from Sam Vaknin for the benefit of all members.

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art37956.asp

Narcissist vs. Psychopath - Similarities and Differences
Guest Author - Sam Vaknin

By Sam Vaknin
Author of "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"

We all heard the terms "psychopath" or "sociopath". These are the old names for a patient with the Antisocial Personality Disorder (AsPD). It is hard to distinguish narcissists from psychopaths. The latter may simply be a less inhibited and less grandiose form of the former. Indeed, the DSM V Committee is considering to abolish this distinction altogether.

Still, there are some important nuances setting the two disorders apart:

As opposed to most narcissists, psychopaths are either unable or unwilling to control their impulses or to delay gratification. They use their rage to control people and manipulate them into submission.

Psychopaths, like narcissists, lack empathy but many of them are also sadistic: they take pleasure in inflicting pain on their victims or in deceiving them. They even find it funny!

Psychopaths are far less able to form interpersonal relationships, even the twisted and tragic relationships that are the staple of the narcissist.

Both the psychopath and the narcissist disregard society, its conventions, social cues and social treaties. But the psychopath carries this disdain to the extreme and is likely to be a scheming, calculated, ruthless, and callous career criminal. Psychopaths are deliberately and gleefully evil while narcissists are absent-mindedly and incidentally evil.

From my book "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited":

"As opposed to what Scott Peck says, narcissists are not evil – they lack the intention to cause harm (mens rea). As Millon notes, certain narcissists 'incorporate moral values into their exaggerated sense of superiority. Here, moral laxity is seen (by the narcissist) as evidence of inferiority, and it is those who are unable to remain morally pure who are looked upon with contempt.' (Millon, Th., Davis, R. - Personality Disorders in Modern Life - John Wiley and Sons, 2000).

Narcissists are simply indifferent, callous and careless in their conduct and in their treatment of others. Their abusive conduct is off-handed and absent-minded, not calculated and premeditated like the psychopath's."

Psychopaths really do not need other people while narcissists are addicted to narcissistic supply (the admiration, attention, and envy of others).

Millon and Davis (supra) add (p. 299-300):

"When the egocentricity, lack of empathy, and sense of superiority of the narcissist cross-fertilize with the impulsivity, deceitfulness, and criminal tendencies of the antisocial, the result is a psychopath, an individual who seeks the gratification of selfish impulses through any means without empathy or remorse."

That was a really good differentiation, Cassi, and I agree with it.

At a low point in my life, I dated a P, who battered me, and then an N, one after the other.

Psychopaths are extremely dangerous, violent people. The scariest part is they are fully conscious of their sick goals, and this makes them very effective compared to N's, who act unconsciously.

I believe that in terms of dealing with N's and P's, striving towards having no contact is best answer for both. But if you are involved with a psychopath, or know someone who is, then the threat of physical harm is so severe that they must be encouraged to run away FAST or they may die.

I agree with the above.

Let's say I'm on fire:

My mother (narcissist)is waving her hand dramatically in front of her face complaining about the smoke. (There is a fire extinguisher nearby but she's "all done out" and doesn't feel like getting it)

My brother (the psychopath) is holding an empty can of gasoline and a burnt match taking pictures and smiling.

Simply put...

Narcissists will do anything to keep attention on themselves. When they cannot manage it, they sustain a narcissist injury. So, when they manipulate to get power, they use that power to aggrandize themselves.

Sociopaths or Psychopaths are all about power and control and they don't particularly care if they are getting attention or adulation the way narcissists do. They just have to control most of the people and events in their lives.

That is what my psychologist told me when I realized that the description of my sister didn't really sync with what I was reading about Narcissism...even Malignant Narcissism. My therepist said that they were on the same continuum though.

-K

I have Sam's book and read every word.

I am still stuck trying to figure out which he was a p or n maybe both.
He was definately into himself and he also liked to watch me squirm. Part of him actually seemed human as he didn't like watching me suffer. Unless it was he didn't like to hear or see me cry when I was in pain. (had a fractured spine at one point (prior relationship...ending of relationship gift) Didn't know it was fractured and put it on a bruised back. After 9 years I developed Osteoporossis and it could not support the fracture spot and it all colapsed on top of each other. If I remember right it was T-9 through T12. I take pain pills in the morning and evening and will forever have to take them. If I don't my left side of my body goes totally numb and my back is in agonizing pain.

The disappearing acts, He managed to turn every conversation to all about him. Lies, It was like he got married to tell everyone hey I got a wife andkids but that is all I do with them.

His whole family has the "Me Me Me Mine Mine Mine" onset and what they say is "gold" My hubby placed himself at a level of being equal to and better than GOD. I honestly thought he thought he was "God". Was above the law, rules are rules for him to break. NO one elses feelings mattered but his.

I'm kind of stunned. After reading this thread, it appears that my NF and
my NS fit the profile of a sociopath.

OK. This makes sense. Very scary. It helps to study this stuff. I want
to understand the insane behaviors that have been going on in my
"family". Thank God I made it out alive. This just validates my
decision to go NC with these two.

The viciousness of the attacks toward me fit this sociopathic behavior.

Thank you for the crucial info.

The difference between an N and a P - to really simplify it, N's need relationships. It anchors them. P's do not need nor see any reason for relationships. Both N's and P's will use any relationship for their own purpose. Where an N will say I slept with x amount of people and feel superior (that they are bragging), a P will say I slept with x amount of people and be laughing at them. A P will also be amused that you have any interest in the number of persons they have slept with. Where an N is hoping you see how superior they are, a P sees your interest as, wow what a loser.

I think needing relationships for supply vs. not needing them except as a tool of getting other needs met is what makes the distinction . That may make N's more likely to seek out marriage and children while the classic P lives alone, keeps to himself.

That said, a P can be sadistic or simply interested in sexual release. This and/or financial need can urge him to marry.

The Ns have LOADS of empathy....BUT only for themselves. Not others.
"Oh no poor ME, my child has cancer" but they don't care about the child, only their own pain (and how sad and caring they look to others)

The Ps can not do empathy at all.
"Yay, I hope I caused that cancer with all the stress I put her/him through. That was my plan all along. Ha ha ha...."

The Malignant Ns are more like P's. But they still have empathy for themselves.
They plan to destroy someone AND still have empathy for their own feelings of sadness. Weird bunch!!

The Enablers? Dumb F****s

That's how I see it

I call bullshit here:

"As opposed to what Scott Peck says, narcissists are not evil – they lack the intention to cause harm (mens rea). As Millon notes, certain narcissists 'incorporate moral values into their exaggerated sense of superiority. Here, moral laxity is seen (by the narcissist) as evidence of inferiority, and it is those who are unable to remain morally pure who are looked upon with contempt.' (Millon, Th., Davis, R. - Personality Disorders in Modern Life - John Wiley and Sons, 2000).

Narcissists are simply indifferent, callous and careless in their conduct and in their treatment of others. Their abusive conduct is off-handed and absent-minded, not calculated and premeditated like the psychopath's."

Ns are evil. They do intend to cause harm. The author clearly does not understand mens rea, which is a legal concept. Callous, indifferent states of mind are sufficient mens rea for certain homicides. This author is white washing the situation to make himself appear more acceptable.

I call bullshit here:

Good call Advark!
Evil is as Evil does.
An N does a "pattern of evil" all through their lives. (Even if some of the REALLY dumb ones don't quite realise, they are DOING evil: because their heads are firmly up their own a.. h...s )

A person is the sum of their ACTIONS and Narcs do evil stuff very consistantly through their lives (without honest apology or repentance or basic "giving a sh*t").
I call that an evil person too. Based on their actions. Over a life time lived without inner reflection and remorse.