Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Rachelle

So I was meeting with a new counsellor last night, that my hospital arranged to make sure I had extra support when the baby arrives.

I went through mostly whole messy couple of years with her and obviously still have a number of things to work through. I left out a bit because it sounds unbelievable to me sometimes, let alone how it must sound to a stranger.

One of the things in particular that she said to me was why did I think it would help sometimes knowing why my ex treated me in a particular way, why would it help knowing his reasons for being so anti baby etc? She then went on to ask if I thought understanding him would change his behaviour. I replied no of course not. That was the point she was making.

Understanding why they do the things they do does not change or excuse their behaviour. Mean is mean regardless of how it is dressed up so it is pointless to even try to understand the why's of it all. If he said to me he was sexually assaulted or bullied, would that change the words or actions he had said. No...

Her final comment was that the way the ex has behaved is linked solely to two things - the first she feels he is a very violent man. Violent in his emotions, twisting words etc. Maybe not physically violent but she felt he was a violent person.

The second was that he is concerned solely about appearance. How he comes out looking in a situation. One of the reasons she was spot on about was that she said she's bet money he couldn't cope with the physical thought of me being pregnant because in his mind that equates to me being fat. And it doesn't match his image to be with a "fat person". As soon as the baby arrives he would be putting pressure on to lose the weight to go back to how I was.

I know these are basic things I should have completely worked out by now, whether it was because she saw things so clearly or summed them up so well I am not sure. Just thought it might be helpful to keep in mind the points she was making about understanding etc.

In the end it was a long emotional session and I was exhausted by the end of it. I did feel better that she was able to say that she had seen nothing in my behaviour, the way I spoke etc to make her believe I was "difficult to be with" etc. If anything she thinks I have convinced myself that I deserve nothing more than to be with an abusive man. (Still thinking about this point!)

Aplogies for the long ramble, sometimes it helps to "think out loud" if you all get what I mean.

Rachelle
_________________
People are like stained-glass windows. They sparkle and shine when the sun is out, but when the darkness sets in; their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

knoxy · Joined: 24 Jul 2007 Posts: 993

Understanding what they do had nothing to do with him and everything to do with me.

I felt I needed to understand everything about how this personality disorder works. It wasn't to change, manipulate or understand HIM per se, as much as understand what I was dealing with - in all of it's forms.

Rachelle · Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:03 am Post subject:

Knoxy I would agree with you. I wanted to understand because he always made me feel as if it was something I had caused or done. And he can be so logical and persuasive that I tended to believe him.

I guess she was saying really even if I understood him 100% it still doesn't help because his behaviour is his own behaviour.

I did explain it used to do my head in trying to work things out, and she said she wasn't suprised, that that was natural but that having answers doesn't always resolve things.

Sorry I hope I didn't come across that I wanted to understand him to manipulate him etc, it's more that I'd never known anyone with his behaviour before and I was confused and frustrated. I know I never could "fix" him so that wasn't it other, maybe it's more his behaviour has been so off my scale of what I perceived to be normal that my mind just could not take it in.
_________________
People are like stained-glass windows. They sparkle and shine when the sun is out, but when the darkness sets in; their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

louxloux · Joined: 20 Jul 2007 Posts: 1522

I think deep down, I knew it was over with the whole "I feel like I am on the verge of depression and need to step back to figure things out" bit. I was HOPING I wasn't right, but deep down I knew I was.

Then the realization of all the lies I've been told.

The minimization of the seriousness of our r/s - we, up to that point, had been planning marriage. Yet about 4 to 6 weeks or so after the 'depression' statement, suddenly, our r/s was just casual and not that serious at all - he totally minimized the significance... which PISSED ME OFF! Totally mind blowing - felt like 'was he actually here for the r/s at all??' I mean totally present - mentally, emotionally as well as physically. I know I was... I was there. I know he was there beside me in body, saying all the stuff two people planning marriage say; doing the work - shopping for a home, looking at rings, researching wedding info and honeymoon destinations, etc.. Completely Mind blowing!!

Thats when learning of NPD really helped me. Not for me to figure out how to win him back; but realizing that this is a FIXED personality disorder - backed up by a REAL pattern of behavior (I had not connected the dots while in the r/s ... but after learning about NPD, it all fell into place). He is the same as he ever was and always will be. I was just played - in the most hurtful and cruel way. And no... he was not totally present in our r/s - nor was he totally present in his first and second marriages - nor is he totally present in his current marriage. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. A cat meows, a dog barks and a psychopath lies, cheats, manipulates, etc... they don't change.

To me, understanding what they do, is more for me than an attempt to change them. Learning about all of this brought out what made me vulnerable in the first place. You have to understand what characteristics you are vulnerable to in order to patch that vulnerability. Learning what are 'red flags' of toxic people (when you grow up in a dysfunctional environment, dysfunction seems normal - you have to learn what is and is not 'healthy'; you have to learn what healthy boundaries are and how to implement them - IF you want some increased assurance of being able to pick these freaks out in the future).

Rachelle, thank you so much for sharing your experience with the new counselor. I can certainly understand how emotionally draining it is to dredge up all this stuff again - I'm to the point now where I am tired of talking about it in my regular day-to-day life... but I can very well remember this overwhelming feeling of exhaustion after every single appt. with my counselor - when we were first starting to peel the layers back. So draining, that I would go straight home and go to bed.

I have been a member here for a little over a year now, and have followed your posts. I have NEVER ever gotten the impression that you are 'difficult' - at ALL. You were just with a crappy guy who projected his crap onto you and made you feel what HE should have been feeling - not that that minimizes the anxiety, shock, disbelief and/or the emotional injury of your experience. I don't think anything can effectively and accurately describe the layers of suffering these people cause with their lies, deceit, shallow / superficial and fleeting emotions, deliberate manipulation, meanness, and self absorption. There is absolutely no way to adequately describe or quantify exactly how it feels to find out you were nothing but a pawn after all the wonderful things said and promises made. It hurts beyond anything else - which is why it is SO difficult to deal with. It makes NO sense whatsoever.

I am very happy to hear though, that you have good support. That new counselor really sounds like she has a good grip on what he is.

Love to you and the baby! How much longer before the little one's arrival???

loux
_________________
Beautiful light is born of darkness, so the faith that springs from conflict is the strongest and the best. Light is the symbol of truth. Give light, & the darkness will disappear of itself.

~ This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine...

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1326 Location: Connecticut, USA

Great post, Rachelle. One that many of us here can relate to, I'm sure. I went round and round trying to understand XN's behavior, and round and round again. I read the books, I saw multiple therapists, I joined this site, I tried with all my might to understand. Then I finally understood - he did the things he did because it's who he is and what he does. Period. No further explanation needed, I was able to move on to begin building my own life, but not until I had come to that realization.

I think that part of our need to understand is our own projection, which everyone on the planet does. "If it were me, I would never..." It's not me, it's him. Also, and I know everyone has felt this - I needed to be certain I was not the problem. If it had been me, I could fix it. So I searched and searched trying to find how it could be me so that I could fix it. Then comes the realization that it's not me, it's him. Learning that there's nothing that you can do to fix the relationship is not a happy realization. In fact, it's something I fought tooth and nail, I was so determined to save the marriage, keep the family intact.

Then one day I accepted my powerlessness. I have no control over what he does. I'm not God. It was as if the weight of the world was lifted from my shoulders. The very idea I had fought against so hard actually set me free.

louxloux · Joined: 20 Jul 2007 Posts: 1522

Nancy, your post made me think of another point.

After being exposed to alter-reality - living a lie that I thought was the truth, the gaslighting, projection, etc... I KNOW for me, one of the main reasons I actively sought out more information re: Narcissism and NPD - was b/c I needed something to confirm my own perceptions! I literally thought I was the crazy one!! I felt crazy - like NOTHING is as it seems. The more you read and learn about NPD, the more you realize, everyone in the wake of an N is crazy (to them). They want you to feel that way... it's part of their M.O.

At first, I was constantly telling someone about something he did or said.. and would follow up with "isn't that crazy?? He say's I am the crazy one.. but that is NUTS" - I needed affirmation that it was him and not me. Even though I could not think of one single thing I had done that could have caused some of the things I heard from his mouth (other than stand up for myself in ONE argument that occurred a month earlier)... I thought, b/c it was so sudden and out of no where, that I had to have done something without even realizing it.

I am ok. My perceptions are on target. In fact, I have predicted with 100% accuracy exactly what was happening and (quietly to myself) what would happen - I knew OW was from work LONG before he admitted it, in fact, he vehemently DENIED it and got very angry when I first made the statement that I thought he was dating someone from work; - I knew that she had to be in her 20's (he had made the statement on way more than one occasion about how with wife #2 he was just so amazed someone her age would find him attractive); - I knew she had money and connections with 'impressive' people; - I knew he would marry her within a matter of months; - and I knew he would get her pregnant ASAP. Absolutely nothing wrong with my perception, intuition, observatory and/or assessment skills (just wish I had the knowledge necessary to correctly assess HIM before I got involved with him romantically - you know the old saying "if I knew then what I know now"?? Totally Fits!).... and I have NEVER ever been accused of being 'crazy' by anyone else in my entire life! (although... would people actually tell you??? LOL) Usually it is very much to the contrary - most people that I've spent any significant amount of time around (family, extended family, friends, co-workers, professors, fellow students and colleagues) remark at how "together" and/or how insightful I am, and how they admire my ability to see things accurately and from various points of view; how I can put myself in someone else's shoes. But in spite of all that - the experience with the N made me doubt myself. The more I learned about NPD; the more I read on here and people shared their stories - all of which had some eerie 'dejavu' element to them... the more I was comforted that "I am ok" - I am NOT crazy; I am not difficult; I am not defective or damaged, etc... I just had really massive mind 'F' from someone I did not expect it from. The 'surprise element' really knocks you for a loop - which is also part of the Narcissist's M.O. They use military/war tactics in personal relationships. I've often referred to the very first D&D as "shock and awe" - tactic used by our military at the very beginning of the war in the Middle East. When you don't see it coming, it knocks you off balance; you don't know how to respond; you fumble around a bit disoriented and confused.

I am glad you posted this thread Rachelle. Hope everyone has a great day.

loux
_________________
Beautiful light is born of darkness, so the faith that springs from conflict is the strongest and the best. Light is the symbol of truth. Give light, & the darkness will disappear of itself.

~ This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine...

disengaging · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 1340

Hi Rachelle,

Good to hear from you!

Rachelle · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:41 am Post subject:

Hi everyone,

I'm glad I posted this..a few things you all said really echoed with me:

Loux your statement - The minimization of the seriousness of our r/s - we, up to that point, had been planning marriage. Yet about 4 to 6 weeks or so after the 'depression' statement, suddenly, our r/s was just casual and not that serious at all - he totally minimized the significance.

So true, 7 years meant nothing, it wasn't THAT serious living together, building a house..only to turn around and deny that we were living together etc WTF!

Nancy your confirmation about the image! I have to say I was a bit shocked when the counsellor raised this. The way she phrased it was that she had a client who husband left her each time she got pregnant (3 times). After a number of months he would always come back. He was well groomed, athletic etc. She was petite until she got pregant then blew up with fluid etc. To the husband it was all about appearance. He could not stand for the image of them or him not to be perfect at any time. Once the image was tarnished that was that.

She did not put a label on him but said she suspected he was like this. In his mind if he found out something or I did something that did not conform with his image he would leave. If he thought I had addressed it he would come back but wouldn't look at me the same way.

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1326 Location: Connecticut, USA

Rachelle, LOL!!

Rachelle · Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:27 am Post subject:

LOL thanks Nancy, I hope so!

Hopefully she will be a great baby and sleep all night and just wake up for feeds in the daytime (I figure if I delude myself now, subconciously she might believe it!)
_________________
People are like stained-glass windows. They sparkle and shine when the sun is out, but when the darkness sets in; their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

Shadey Lady · Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 151

Rachelle,

Great post. I think it is the hardest thing about divorcing my N was that my head was so full of the crap that I listened to for so long, that I lost "me" and I lost my personal compass. It took a long time for me to realize that I could do nothing to "help" my N. It was my helping nature that got me into so much trouble. I thought that if I could just do one more thing, or lose one more pound or give up one more thing or change something about me, then things would be better. There was always something else to do. Even though I couldn't see it sometimes, my friends and family could see what N was wanting me to do. It was because of my caring friends and family that I was able to take those first steps away from N.

Early in our relationship, N told me he didn't want me to gain any weight. I tried really hard at first, even when I was pregnant with my first child. I only ate 1000 calories a day for the last three months I was pregnant. After I had the baby, I was so happy that I was back to my original weight. Then after a week I was down 10 pounds. Then after two weeks I was down 20. I had not gained enough weight when I was pregnant to keep myself healthy and I didn't have any reserves to get up with a newborn and nurse him well. Then N yelled at me because I had eaten foolishly. I couldn't win.

So, keep yourself happy and healthy. Take care of you and your baby. Don't give N the time of day.

Peace, Shadey Lady

p.s. Believe me, you won't put the baby down and forget where you put her. She'll make enough noise for you to find her...LOL

samvaknin · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 2213

Question:

Do narcissists feel guilty and if so, do they ever repent?

Answer:

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq57.html

Question:

Am I to blame for my husband's/child's/parent's mental state and behaviour? Is there anything that I can or should do to help him or to reach him?

Answer:

Self-flagellation is a characteristic of those who choose to live with a narcissist (for a choice it is). Constant feelings of guilt, self-reproach, self-recrimination and, thus, self-punishment characterize the relationships formed between the sadist-narcissist and the masochistic-dependent mate or partner.

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq21.html

Abusers regularly deny the abuse ever took place – or rationalize their abusive behaviors. Denial is an integral part of the abuser's ability to "look at himself/herself in the mirror".

There are many types of denial. When confronted by his victims, most abusers tend to shift blame or avoid the topic altogether.

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/abuse14.html

The dissolution of the abuser's marriage or other meaningful (romantic, business, or other) relationships constitutes a major life crisis and a scathing narcissistic injury. To soothe and salve the pain of disillusionment, he administers to his aching soul a mixture of lies, distortions, half-truths and outlandish interpretations of events around him.

All abusers present with rigid and infantile (primitive) defense mechanisms: splitting, projection, Projective Identification, denial, intellectualization, and narcissism. But some abusers go further and decompensate by resorting to self-delusion. Unable to face the dismal failures that they are, they partially withdraws from reality.

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/abuse14.html

Question:

Doesn't the narcissist ever feel sorry for his "victims"?

Answer:

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq14.html

Question:

Should the narcissist be held accountable for his actions?

Answer:

Narcissists of all shades can usually control their behaviour and actions. They simply don't care to, they regard it as a waste of their precious time, or a humiliating chore. The narcissist feels both superior and entitled – regardless of his real gifts or achievements. Other people are inferior, his slaves, there to cater to his needs and make his existence seamless, flowing and smooth.

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq71.html

Question:

The narcissist is not entirely responsible for his actions. Should we judge him, get angry at him, be upset by him? Above all, should we communicate to him our displeasure?

Answer:

The narcissist knows to tell right from wrong. He is perfectly capable of anticipating the results of his actions and their influence on his human environment. The narcissist is very perceptive and sensitive to the subtlest nuances. He has to be: the very integrity of his personality depends upon input from others.

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq13.html

Narcissists are not prone to "irresistible impulses" and dissociation (blanking out certain stressful events and actions). They more or less fully control their behavior and acts at all times. But exerting control over one's conduct requires the investment of resources, both mental and physical. Narcissists regard this as a waste of their precious time, or a humiliating chore. Lacking empathy, they don't care about other people's feelings, needs, priorities, wishes, preferences, and boundaries. As a result, narcissists are awkward, tactless, painful, taciturn, abrasive and insensitive.

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders49.html

Question:

How does the narcissist react when he fails to obtain enough Narcissistic Supply?

Answer:

Very much as a drug addict would react to the absence of his particular drug.

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq28.html

The narcissist then resorts to self-delusion. Unable to completely ignore contrarian opinion and data - he transmutes them. Unable to face the dismal failure that he is, the narcissist partially withdraws from reality. To soothe and salve the pain of disillusionment, he administers to his aching soul a mixture of lies, distortions, half-truths and outlandish interpretations of events around him. These solutions can be classified thus:

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/journal42.html

Paranoid ideation - the narcissist's deep-rooted conviction that he is being persecuted by his inferiors, detractors, or powerful ill-wishers - serves two psychodynamic purposes. It upholds the narcissist's grandiosity and it fends off intimacy.

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/journal60.html

Narcissistic Supply is exciting. When it is available, the narcissist feels elated, omnipotent, omniscient, handsome, sexy, adventurous, invincible, and irresistible. When it is missing, the narcissist first enters a manic phase of trying to replenish his supply and, if he fails, the narcissist shrivels, withdraws and is reduced to a zombie-like state of numbness.

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://samvak.tripod.com/adrenalinejunkie.html

In general, there is a strong compulsive strand in the narcissist's behaviour. He is driven to exorcise internal demons by means of ritualistic acts. The narcissist's very pursuit of Narcissistic Supply is compulsive. The narcissist seeks to recreate and reenact old traumas, ancient, unresolved conflicts with figures of (primary) importance in his life.

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq30.html

Unpredictability

The narcissist acts unpredictably, capriciously, inconsistently and irrationally. This serves to demolish in others their carefully crafted worldview. They become dependent upon the next twist and turn of the narcissist, his inexplicable whims, his outbursts, denial, or smiles.

Continue to read this article here (click on this link):

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/faq6.html