Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

superheromom · Joined: 11 Aug 2007 Posts: 74

Per the court orders, N is to reimburse me directly for tuition (He instead called the school and set up a payment plan w/them even though I had paid the tuition in full. It was a mess. I fixed it.) Per the court orders, N is to call D each Wednesday and Sunday.

On Wed., I answered the phone and N said, "Hey, that business with the school tuition was a misunderstanding so..." I cut N off with "I'm not worried about it. Here's D."

On Saturday, I was out and about with D and when we returned home, Caller ID showed that N had called. He did not leave a message.

On Sunday, N called D as scheduled, talked to her for about 10 minutes and then she said, "Here Mama, Daddy wants to talk to you." I got onto the phone and N started with, "Hey, these attorneys are getting rich off of us. There's no reason for all of this back and forth stuff. I tried to call you yesterday but you didn't answer the phone."

I asked what back and forth stuff he was referring to and N answered "Every time your atty. emails my atty., we get charged for it so it needs to stop. There's nothing to figure out about the financial stuff because we agree on everything."

?????? Why does N think that we agree on everything when we have never discussed the division of property? I never said to N "Oh, I agree."

N then said "There was no reason for you to get the attorneys involved with that school business. You should have just called me directly to tell me about the problem."

?????? N has a long history of disagreeing with most anything that I say. Yeah, right...I'm gonna call him up to discuss the problem. Puh-leeze...Does N think that I'm stupid and do not remember the past 15 years? 15 years of N telling me things like "It is what it is so you just have to deal with it" or "I'm the man and you're the woman so I don't have to listen to you" or "You're my wife; not my mother. Stop treating me like a child" when I would try to discuss problems with him.

I told N that if N hadn't acted against the court orders, there wouldn't have been any back and forth. N then said "Well, your attorney is instigating things. I have a huge stack of papers about finances and accounts to fill out and there's no reason for this."

I informed N that my atty. sent that to him in response to the huge pile of discovery that N's atty. sent to me first. I suggested that N call his atty. to make sure that they were on the same page since N didn't want to deal with the discovery.

N (know-it-all voice): "Oh, we're on the same page. You don't need to worry about that. Those papers are standard in divorce. That's why my atty. sent them to you."

???????? If the discovery is standard in a divorce, why is N complaining to me about N receiving discovery? How can this fool not see how he just contradicted himself in a most obvious way?

I told N again to talk to his atty. about these things if he had any questions. N started saying something again about his high legal fees. I could tell that N had no intentions of dropping the subject so I interrupted with "If you have questions about your atty's bill, then you need to ask your atty. these questions." N started saying more stuff and I could tell that he was gearing up to "get into it" with me. I said "Also, it is highly inappropriate for you to call D as scheduled, ask D to put me onto the phone and then start arguing with me about $$$ and the divorce knowing that D is sitting right in front of me. D should not be subjected to, witness to or in any way involved with the divorce itself. She is listening to every word and trying her best to hear what you are saying. Call your atty. about these types of things. I'm hanging up. Bye."

I wish it was legal to record phone conversations in my state. It's not unless both parties agree to the recording.

N was aggressive with me during the conversation. Over the past five days, N attempted to discuss the divorce three times with me and that is three times too many. If N is not happy with the high bill he just received from his atty., that's N's problem...not mine. Do I like the high bill that I also received? Not really...but I would never be so obnoxious to call up N and make it his problem. I'm going to email my atty. about this tomorrow and ask for him to contact N's atty. to ask that N be instructed to stop trying to talk to me about the divorce. Other than things D-related, N has no valid reason to contact me and should communicate through the atty.

Of course, this will create more legal fees.

I knew when I saw N's number on Caller ID on Saturday that he was going to force me to talk to him by telling D to give me the phone. I also knew it would be about N's money troubles and what he wanted ME to do to fix them for him.

I need to word it in a way to make it clear that N is beginning to use his scheduled phone calls to D as a way to force me to talk to him. I typed up a ridiculously long document detailing everything about the conversation. I'm going to email it to myself at work and pare it down for my atty. in the morning after I've had the required amount of coffee to be functional.

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

I'm sorry you are having such a problem with your N--I would only like to make one suggestion.

Just because he can call and talk to D twice a week, does NOT mean that you must talk to him.

While I realize you have a child and there cannot therefore be 100% NC--I would suggest that YOU not talk to him AT ALL unless it is directly about your daughter.

The next time she turns to you and hands you the phone, simply say to HIM, (sweetly of course) "John, now is not a convenient time to talk, please call my attorney about ANY questions you have." THEN HANG UP.

Repeat as needed until he gets the idea you WILL NOT TALK ABOUT THIS WITH HIM.

There is NO WAY you can win with him as long as you let him push your buttons and control you. YOU MUST TAKE BACK CONTROL---and keep it. No matter how he postures, makes noises, screams, berates you, or anything else. Speak only through your attorney to him.

That way your daughter will only see you "being sweet" and he is the one being negative. Fighting his control with a sweet, calm disposition (no matter how you have to FAKE IT) will put you back in the drivers seat and drive him NUTS--which is what he will do to you if you allow him to continue to go around the attorneys! Yep the bill is high, but it is worth it!

((((hugs))) sweetie! You can do it!
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Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

Trinity · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 97

Can they all be so much alike? I could've very easily written your story myself!!!!! Here's what I think:

-Oh boy! He got the lawyers bill alright. He turned on his charm to get you to feel sorry for him for you both to drop your lawyers...... The only way he would EVER drop his lawyer was if YOU AGREED TO EVERYTHING HE WANTED. He can't stand the thought of seeing his money going to a lawyer....his thought is if he can get you to do what HE wants then he won't have to put forth soooo much money.....

I think it would be wise for his lawyer to advise the stbxn that he is NOT to ask for you when he calls D. How old is D? Depending on her age,(because for a small child it would be confusing) at some point you may have to (or a counselor) teach her that dad needs to call mom on his own, NOT DURING THEIR TIME. This time is D and dad time. That means, leave mom out of the conversation. PERIOD! But like I said, depending on her age, she may get confused and worried about his feelings....... At some point, she will need to learn this though.

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 876

deleted

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

'this lawyer business is making it really hard for me to screw you over so can't we go back to the way it was? You know, when I could successfully screw you over for free or even make you pay for me to screw you over?'

And of course, why wouldn't he want to go back to status quo-- it worked for him before! Don't fall for his tactics. You are establishing that things are different now.

I agree with OX, he did not force you to talk to him. Think of ways to get around it if you get put in that position again. One of my favorites was to ask N to email it to me so I could understand what he was saying. That put things in writing and made him less able to manipulate what I said, and what he said that he said... He never followed through.

You can write down some of your avoidance tactics on notecards. Your trigger is that knot in your stomach, just take out a card and do what it says. You shouldn't try to explain it-- as you well know, he would just twist the whole thing around and leave you wondering what just happened!

I like the non-sequiter response--N: "aren't I a nice guy, can't we work this out in a nice way, since I am such a nice guy..."
You: "Oh yes, thank you for calling D. She really loves hearing from you! She's looking forward to hearing from you next time, buh bye!" click.

(side note, this tactic works for all sorts of hyper-critical people in life: Mom: "Don't you think it's about time you got a haircut?" Me: "Oh yes, I know what you mean, I think my hair looks fabulous this way too!")
_________________
Sail on silvergirl,
Sail on by.
Your time has come to shine.
-Paul Simon

superheromom · Joined: 11 Aug 2007 Posts: 74

When N calls for D, I make sure to answer the phone to give N the opportunity to talk with me about D-related things before he engages in conversation with D. I don't want the phone to be passed back and forth during D's conversation. When N starts talking about money or "misunderstandings" or the divorce, I cut in with "I'm not worried about it. Here's D." Not once has N wanted to talk about D...it's always the divorce, money or N's problems.

On Wed., N tried to talk to me when he called for D but I wouldn't stay on the phone (N was still talking when I set the phone onto the counter). Caller ID showed that N called on Sat. and because I know N's patterns, I knew that call was for me and not D. On Sun., when D said "Daddy wants to talk to you" I took the phone from her because I could tell N was bent on talking to me. If I would have told D that I wasn't going to talk to N, that wouldn't have been the end of it. N would have been like a dog with a bone. N would have gotten very pushy with D to get me on the phone. I wasn't going to let that happen.

D is 7 years old. She sees a therapist each Monday. D does not have the emotional maturity to field what N is throwing at her. N knows this and uses it to manipulate D...D is like a mini-agent for N right now because he's across the country and can't do it himself. There are many many secrets kept from me but D gives full reports to N about me each phone call.

Over the past month or so, D has become increasingly obsessed with spying on me and snooping through my things. I can't let her get the mail any longer (which is her favorite chore) because if there is something from my atty., D opens it up and reads what is inside. D then reports back to N any info she was able to find. I have repeatedly told her not to do this to no avail and now D tries to grab the mail out of my hand before I go through it. "Mama, I'm keeping my eye on you!" D's eyes are very sparkly, she's always smiling and it's obvious that she thinks it's a fun game. "Ha ha! We tricked you on that one, Mama!" D has no idea that she is making the situation worse; she is just playing a game with Daddy. It's a mess.

It is almost impossible for me to work on this divorce unless D is not home. Too much spying/snooping. D won't fully go to sleep until she knows that I've gone to bed, too...she constantly sneaks out of her room to see what I'm doing. If I need to take a phone call, I have to lock my bedroom door, go into my closet and shut the door to talk. D screams and pounds on the door during the entire phone call because she can't hear what is being said. D will then tell N during the next call that I left her alone to talk on the phone and locked her out of the room.

D didn't act this way before.

I emailed my atty. yesterday about N's phone call and both D and I were in with the therapist yesterday afternoon. I brought all of this up in the session and the therapist finally understood the degree of involvement with D and how D thinks it's a fun way to "trick" me per the N and thinks me telling her to stop is "part of the game." (Most sessions are D alone and I come in for the last 5-10 minutes.) The therapist addressed with D the difference between kid things and adult things and how D should not be involved with the adult things. Also, if I tell D that something is not her business, D needs to respect that and leave it alone instead of repeating things to other people, snooping around and spying on me.

D seemed to understand but I don't know if she'll be able to stop with the N. D doesn't want to make N mad and D knows that it doesn't take much to make N mad; her main goal is to make N happy right now.

I should hear back from my atty. today to see if he wants to take action over the phone contact with me or not.

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

wow. that's just nuts.
Sorry you have to deal with this.
_________________
Sail on silvergirl,
Sail on by.
Your time has come to shine.
-Paul Simon

superheromom · Joined: 11 Aug 2007 Posts: 74

dagna - I'm keeping my eye on the prize.

Now that the therapist fully understands that D thinks the spying, etc. is a game between her and N and when I say "Don't do that" it is part of the game, I think things will begin to improve. D and I aren't with the therapist at the same time; the therapist consults with me after D's session to suggest tactics, etc. Of course, those tactics didn't work (which I already knew but I just waited it out) because "outsmarting Mama" IS the game. D knows that if I'm able to stop her from doing this, then D needs to consult her play book and do that.

The therapist had both of us in there together this time and I think it was to see why the suggested tactics aren't working. After about 20 minutes, the therapist's eyes lit up and I could tell that the missing piece had fallen into place. Immediately, the therapist started with D about respecting boundaries and that even though there shouldn't be secrets from parents, D has no right to tell N info that belongs solely to ME. The only person who can choose to share that info is ME. Therapist said to D that it was a little strange that N and D keep so many secrets from me yet D tells N everything about me. Etc. etc.

Last night, D went to bed and stayed in bed (except for one trip for a glass of water) for the first time in two months. D also gave me a really big hug/kiss before bed without me asking first...which hasn't happened in a while.

I think things will slowly improve with D and the uber-sharing with N. D needs time to mull over the "game" vs. "really bad thing" and find her truth. D is not a mean spirited child and once it sinks in that her "game" with N is actually hurting me, she'll stop. It won't happen for awhile, especially since D will be with N and his parents for 4 days at Thanksgiving. N's mother is even worse than N so D will be subjected to 4 days of constant mind programming. I don't even want to talk about N's mother other than to say...evil personified. Woman sticks within her own circle of brainwashed people to keep from being found out. The minute somebody figures out N's mother's true self, that person is cut out ASAP.

I know because it happened to me with N. It took her 7 years of agressively working on N (15 yrs. total) and N finally pulled through for her (to give credit, N saw through her and called her on things when D was an infant and cut off contact for 1 1/2 years. Those were good/happy years.) MIL sweet-talks N and gives N shiny things to get N to do what she wants. N is selfish and unable to resist so N caved in and here we are today. MIL will now move on and attempt the same with D now that she has N on her payroll.

N is repeating MIL's manipulation almost exactly with D.

I am D's mother and completely responsible for how D is raised. It is my job to instill in D her morals, manners, social behavior and how to be a good person in general. If D is hanging out with the wrong crowd, it is my responsibility to step in and help D to make better choices. However, I am completely powerless to protect D from people I know to be damaging and stop the N-cycle because of the family court system. But, if D grows up to be a less-than ethical person, it will be because "her mother didn't raise her the right way."

Oh well...I'll do my best to be a good example and hope that D can see the difference. That is something I have control over so that is where I'll focus my energies.

Trinity · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 97

The best thing for you to possibly do for your D is what you are doing. Taking her to the therapist to learn from a 3rd party that what N is trying to teach her is wrong.....then you can piggy back off of her lessons by saying... "how does therapist say to handle this?"

When my D was 8, (she is now 13) N would tell her to listen to my phone conversations at work- I worked at the school she went to. He told her to look at the phone screen and remember the phone number. He told her to try to remember how I was talking to people on the phone. I didn't realize what she was doing until one day, she came around my desk and made it a point to hoist herself up high enough to look at the phone number on the screen. She had NO idea she was doing something wrong....until I asked her what she was doing. And she said "nothing". and I continued to ask her and she said, "dad said it was important to not tell you so you wouldn't get mad at me......its for your relationship." THE POOR KID HAD NO IDEA WHAT SHE WAS DOING! And immediatley I took the information to the marriage counselor AND her counselor.... and that became a MAJOR issue........a major down fall for him.... She still remembers that to this very day..... The counselor taught her that this was totally inappropriate of HIM to ask her to do and it was not her fault.... As long as next time, she steps out of the situation.....

I had a hard time realizing that my child would have to grow up so fast....learning how to deal with N's like this at such a young age...but it has been the BEST thing for her....and NOW....she puts her foot down.... She can look at him square in the face and say..."Dad, that's between you and mom...that's NOT FOR me to deal with." or she will say..."Counselor said if you would like to talk about this, call mom.... Its for parents."

I also refuse to allow N treat D how he was treated....XMIL AND XFIL were divorced and both played awful mind games with the N (this is where he learned it) and swore up and down that he would never do the same thing to his child as was done to him....YA RIGHT...the second he got the chance, he USED everything he learned and got better at it.... my comment to him was that " I am not your mother OR your father and I will not allow you to use D as a weapon against me....I would fight to the death before I do what his parents did! I am her mother...and I will teach her a different way of handling a person like him.

You are right...we have to stop this cycle.......we can't stop others...but we can teach our D's how to deal with this for their own benefit.