Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1327 Location: Connecticut, USA

stbXN called tonight to say goodnight to the boys. This was the first time he's done that. As it turned out, he actually used that as an excuse to speak to me about the custody arrangements when school gets out. As it stands now, they are with me Sunday night through Friday, with "time with their father on the weekends". So far, this has translated to Friday through Sunday with him. My lawyer said that if he wanted to change it, he would have to file for a change.

He said he wanted to discuss it. I asked him what he would like. He tried to turn it back on me. I said I really enjoyed having them weekdays the last couple of weeks, but would like to have some weekend time with them too, for fun stuff.

He mentioned a 5/5/2/2 split. I asked him to explain it. He was vague, and started getting hostile and said maybe we should just have the lawyers do it.

He said that he had started out our first Monday of the split by taking S11 to his karate class, but was "kicked out of that". I asked him what he meant, because I never said a word about it either way. He did take the child to that one class, but never showed up or offered to drive again. Between the two boys, they go every day but Sunday. He said to drop it, that's not what he had called for, I asked then why had he mentioned it? He became more hostile and said we could just pay the lawyers to handle it, but that we shouldn't need the lawyers, we should be able to discuss it and settle it ourselves. I said, "Like we discussed and settled what I wanted you not to take?", then I hung up (although he might have hung up first, I'm not sure). The only things I asked him not to take were a couple of paintings the boys made in school in the 4th grade. Of course, he took them.

He called right back and spoke with S11, asking him if he wanted to stay at his house starting Monday. When my son hung up the phone, he came to me concerned and upset. He felt that Dad was trying to complete for him, and questioned Dad's intent in purchasing a new Wii game system for them even though Dad is vehemently against video games. I assured him that Dad was just trying to make him feel more at home there, and that he would not be placed in the position of having to choose between his parents.

How do I handle this? stbXN was so quick to put our younger son in the middle of it! It was his immediate response. I need him to understand that it's not OK to use the kids like that.

As far as I know, stbXN will continue to come to work here until 7/14, when he plans to start working his own business from his home. Staying at his house now would mean the kids staying home alone during the day while he comes here to work, and that just doesn't make sense. The kids start day camp the following week.

Please help. I need a quick response to this, as he is putting the kids in the middle to force an outcome. What should I do? Should I discuss it with him at all? I don't want to give up even a minute with my kids, but at the same time I want to do what's right for them, and not make this any worse for them than it has to be. I already put an email in to my lawyer, that I'm hoping she'll get first thing in the morning.

fraggle_1972 · Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 567

Here is the answer.

livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 946

Nancy,

I typed a long response to you last night that fell into cyberland -- but, as she always does, fraggle gave you a great response here.

Good luck. I wouldn't give in, but the next time you have contact with your attorney, I would let her know what the N is doing.

I used to make the mistake of saying nothing to my d when the ExN involved her in adult issues. My therapist finally told me that I was allowing the ExN to distort her reality when I said nothing, so now I am honest with her when he does this crap. The courts don't know which parent to blame when this happens, so I did explain to my attorney why I needed to be honest with d when ExN pulled her into his conflicts with me.

These asses really are so predictable....

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1327 Location: Connecticut, USA

I'm really concerned about our sons feeling like we are fighting over them. I don't want them torn apart like that. But then I'm faced with giving in to N's demands to keep the peace, a very old pattern for me. I refuse to participate in parent-bashing, especially with my little one. He's 11, but he's little for his age. He adores his Dad. I'd rather try to shelter him from what Dad is. I don't think he needs to see reality just yet. Or is this still part of my old pattern?

Is there really no way to stop him from using the kids like that? That breaks my heart.

livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 946

To me, there is a difference between parent bashing and living in truth.

I try to never speak negative about the Exn to my d or around my d. However, when he lies to her and emotionally manipulates her, she needs to understand the truth. I worked with her therapist to address his behavior. I don't think that is parent bashing, at least in my opinion. My therapist told me, and my d therapist agreed, that distorted reality is a pathway to mental disorders. I don't feel like I have any choice but to address the issues with my d.

Even if you don't believe the distorted reality is a pathway to mental disorders, you have to undestand it is a pathway to parent alienation. The Ns want us to believe we are parent bashing when we address these issues with our children because involving the children and bashing us allows the Ns to continue to abuse us.

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

Hi Nancy,

You CANNOT have a rational discussion with someone who is being IRRATIONAL. It can't be done. And it isn't your fault. I frequently got the 'we should be able to discuss this' line. I always ended up with the exact same irrational discussion that you did.

I really don't believe there is any possible way to settle things over the phone or in person. Once I switched to email only, all discussion ceased. I send him emails regarding the children or the divorce, and he does not respond. Actually, any effort to get him to commit to anything is met with the emergence of mr psycho-man. That indicated to me that he didn't actually want to 'discuss' anything at all. He wanted to manipulate and twist and make things my fault, and I just won't play that game anymore. Having two lawyers is a luxury- leave it to them and DON'T apologize for it.

I have stopped worrying about being 'fair' to him. Fair is certainly not a benefit he is giving to me.

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

And I know that your main concern is the kids. I am lost in this area. How can I not bash their father while at the same time let them know that this behavior toward them is NOT OK? I cannot find the words.

livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 946

Sorry I am being a post-hog (again).

Dagna,

I never know how to address it. I have told my d's therapist and then she either discusses with her in therapy or discusses with me present at the start of therapy.

Other times the therapist has told me how to address it with d.

At one point, the lies to my d became so bad that the family law case manager actually sat d down and explained to her what the truth was.

Trinity · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 97

I finally had to realize that I could not stop the XNH from trying to put my daughter into the middle of everything...using her as his therapist etc. I brought all of this to the attention of my lawyer and her counselor. He was warned but the behavior continued.

I beat myself up day in and day out because I thought "there MUST be something I can do to stop this." Unfortunatley, I couldn't stop it when I was married let alone when we are apart.

I (and her counselors, from age 10 till now 13) had to work with my daughter (and continue to work) on how to view her father in the TRUTH. Meaning....YES, he is her father BUT NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO PUT HER IN THE MIDDLE OF SOMETHING AND MAKE HER FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE. He may be her father, but that doesn't mean he's allowed to use her as a weapon.

The fact that your son picked up on his father buying the Wii game when he knows he never cared for it, is a light bulb in your little guys head. Yes, dad may have bought it to make him comfortable, but the truth is that NEITHER of you understand it because he was so dead set against it....

My daughters counselors told me to not sugar coat his actions. They said, children are not stupid and see for themselves, even if they don't voice their thoughts much. They tend to internalize. So, if something doesn't sound right, i talk it out truthfully with my daughter...

As much as I want to say....Oh..your dad is the most wonderful father ever...... I really can't. My daughter has gone through way too much to hear that. I need to listen to her and we need to talk about how to deal with it the next time. Cause, there always is a next time...wether it be her dad or someone else.....

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1327 Location: Connecticut, USA

I made an appointment with the kids' therapist for Monday. I will discuss this with her, and maybe she can help me find the right words to tell my son the truth without bashing his Dad.

I believe that his reasons for wanting more time with the kids are selfish, and not about the kids at all. I think from your experiences, you all know this too.

The first reason is child support. He favors a 50/50 split because otherwise he would have to pay me a mountain of child support based on our current income. He told his lawyer that his #1 goal is to not have to pay me a dime.

The second reason is NS. I learned (yes, I've been snooping again) that the OW dumped him. Emailed him this long letter saying that she has "stuff" to work through and is afraid she'd hurt him in his vulnerable state (after being so brutally victimized by me of course), says that although he is absolutely wonderful, she is still in love with someone else, and last but not least, because she wants to be friends, truly friends, not friends hoping that a relationship will come out of it. Maybe she's smarter than I thought.

So, he has been in his new house for 2 1/2 weeks and is getting pretty lonely. No NS, and these guys will self-destruct. He told our son that the hardest part of living there is not having his dog with him (that he refused to take because of the vet bill - and this guy drives a Porsche!). It would have been better for us all if this OW worked out for him. I'm hoping he finds another quickly.

And the best reason - taking the kids is the one thing he knows will do me the most damage. They are the center of my universe, and have been since they were born. He knows that, and has been extremely jealous of that over the years. I am willing to let them go with their Dad for half the time, IF I am convinced that it's what's best for them, and so far I'm not. However, I don't want to mix up what's best for them with what's best for me. I want them to live with me because it's what's best for them, and I'm afraid that their being the center of my universe might make it difficult for me to see what is truly best for them. I don't want to make a decision based on my own selfishness. That's what he would do, not me.

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 876

deleted

fraggle_1972 · Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 567

Nancy

You are not fighting over your children you are fighting FOR them.

Its not parent bashing...it is giving your children knowlegde about abusive manipulative people, remember what they see growing up is how they will live their lives, they need to see honesty in a parent, knowing that a parent has protected and armed them from what awaits in the world and unfortunately this sometimes means a parent too.

This is the only way you can minimise damage from the n using the kids.

Did you know that the same sex parent has the most influence in a childs life while growing up?

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1327 Location: Connecticut, USA

If we reach an agreement, the court will not intervene. If I push for primary custodian, it will go to court. I am trying to decide what I think is best for the kids. Their therapist supports shared 50/50 custody. She knows he's an N. She says that a crappy dad is better than no dad at all. I am very tempted to agree to shared custody, although perhaps not exactly 50/50 if it avoids an all-out war, in which he would definitely beyond a doubt use the kids to put in the middle.

Lesser of two evils: subject the kids to an ugly custody battle, or subject them to more time with the N. I'm scared of the ruthless tactics he will take, and I'm leaning toward the shared custody.

I went to my parenting class tonight. No doubt the things he would subject the kids to in a custody battle would be the worst possible thing. The instructor gave me his number and offered to speak to me about this particular situation and give feedback. I will speak with their therapist on Monday. I spoke with my lawyer today and asked her to go ahead and start the battle, but I'm thinking of calling her tomorrow to ask her to hold off. Here is what I hope to propose:

No change in arrangements now, as long as N is working here at my house (maybe this will give him incentive to get the hell out!).

Shared custody over the summer, once he is working from his own home, and I would consider the 5/5/2/2 split he talked about.

Back to weekdays with me for the fall school year, at least for my younger son, adding some weekend time for me too I hope. My argument is that he needs the structure of the same home during the school week because of his ADD, and I am better equipped to help with the homework, especially his accelerated algebra class.

I can play it by ear, keeping the therapist posted, and look at making changes if needed, trying to keep it as close to a normal divorce as possible. He's going to be nuts no matter what I do. It's up to me to keep this normal and sane, and not play his game. This is just another chance for him to battle me. I guess my biggest fear is that if I agree to shared custody, I won't be able to undo it if I need to in the future. I suppose I can call it joint custody, but agree to temporary 50/50 for the summer.

Any experiences with this?

fraggle_1972 · Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 567

My therapist has always said no dad is better than a disordered dad.

After watching my exN interact with his children, I agree with her completely. His kids are going to end up so mixed up...there were already signs of it while we were together.

livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 946

Nancy,

You are wise to worry about the affect of making any agreement, even if temporary. I would not agree to shared. I would anticipate that by the end of the summer, he would file a motion to continue the schedule.

Of course his motivations are finanicial. We all know the differerence between a concerned dad and a man who doesn't want to pay child support. You just need to make sure the court understands that given his history with your children, it's clear he is just trying to get out of paying support. Any man with a history of domestic violence should not have shared custody, at least that is my opinion.

You are already watching the "acting." His role is "father of the year." His prize for playing the role well, money is his wallet.