Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

OK, I probably shouldn't post this here but... I just don't know what else to do. OK, so I have one kid whom the Dementor chose as scapegoat. Things went on that never should have. There is one behavior, a chokehold, that Dementor exhibited toward this kid. The unwillingess to stop this particular action is what led me to file for divorce. OK so younger kid witnessed this on more than one occasion and thinks if Dementor can do this to older kid, so can I.

I can't get younger kid to stop. I have tried everything.
I am so desperate about this situation that I am seriously considering seeing if all of us can go to a family counselor together (including Dementor) so we can hash this out. Not to 'get' Dementor, but just so it can be addressed for the kids. Both kids are under 10.

Does anyone know if I bring this to a family counselor, would the counselor be required to file a child abuse report? It is such a non-specific event (as in I can't give you dates or witnesses, etc) that I think it would be safe, but I don't know.

Now that I am out of the fog I can't for the life of me figure out why I didn't just call 911 myself, but for whatever reason things weren't so clear at the time.

However, this specific situation is because of him but it isn't about him (imagine... Shocked

) , and having charges against him now won't solve this particular problem with the kids.

Anyone????

fraggle_1972 · Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 570

In Australia doctors, counsellors, teachers, psychologists, etc have a duty of care obligation to report any and all suspected and actual abuse. They do not have to have specifics (dates, times, places, exact events) just be convinced there has been abuse.

If you see a counsellor that said they would not report it then they are not acting within the law and in effect are abusing the child/children

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Dagna, you MUST do something about this immediately. Either N or yougest child could kill your eldest. There is a very fine line between surviving or dying in a chokehold. It seems to be another favourite trick of Ns to use this form of torture. My D's exN got her in a chokehold and she felt herself losing consciousness. She managed to break free by scratching and struggling so what did N say? 'She attacked me and here are the scratches to prove it. I had to hold her away at arms length and somehow my hands ended up under her chin'. In a matter like this it is of no consequence that you have no times or dates or photos. If I were you I would be doing something NOW. This is virtually a police matter. Its a disaster in the making and if you don't do something you could be held partly responsible! Sounds to me like you have grounds to get N out of the house. This is avery serious matter.
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Sailor

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

P.S.
Whilst the main problem is obviously N, I would immediately half the problem by sorting out your youngest. This will raise howls of protest but I would by pass counselling and revert to the law of the jungle. I would simply say to eldest: ' If youngest does that to you again, give him a good hard punch on the nose! It might start a fight but youngest would think twice about choking again. Seems to me that youngest is learning from N and eldest is his victim. Stop it in its tracks right now. If youngest is bullying eldest and eldest deals with it firmly the bullying will stop.
When I was at school, one boy tried to bully me, the usual stuff, a sly dig, an accidental trip up, a viscious punch in the arm etc. One day, I turned around and punched him full in the face, a fight followed with all the other kids in a circle around us, I 'won' the fight and afterwards, for the remainder of our school years we were the best of friends. Likewise, your two boys could end uo the best of friends but whatever the outcome this form of bullying needs to stop right now.
O K, O K, you can all have a go at me now for by passing counselling, but remember I'm a parent also.
N is a totally different problem and he definitely needs sorting out but through the proper channels
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Sailor

LeaveLone · Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 100

Agree with everyone --- you HAVE to stop it and it probably means a child behavior specialist.

If N gets reported (as legit child specialists are mandatory reporters) then that's not YOUR problem but N's -- you didn't teach your son to do this!

And, if it's not nipped in the bud, your son could prove to be a danger, inadvertantly or intentional. To himself, to others. Imagine what could happen if this escalates!

Do something, do it NOW while there's still a good chance of reversal!

LL

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

ummmm... OK this is going to sound really defensive, because I am really sensitive about it... Embarassed

But, I know I have to DO SOMETHING. Sailor, I wish we could pm because I really can't go into details here, but please rest assured that N is out of the house, and proper protections are in place for visits. And as for the dynamic between kids, 99% of the time it isn't younger kid being the bully. This unacceptable behavior is a response to 'law of the jungle' between kids, another situation that is being addressed. Kids are receiving routine help from mental health professionals. Chokehold has never been tight enough to obstruct airways (from Dementor or kid), but even the threat is unacceptable.

I would welcome this getting reported. I just don't want it to be in THIS context (all of us in a family therapy visit together) because I don't think it would solve the problem between the kids, which is my focus right now. But maybe family therapy visit wouldn't work either...

fraggle_1972 · Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 570

In some countries if you dont report it you are allowing your child to be physically abused and are considered a neglegent parent and can be charged as such.

livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 965

1. Fraggle is right in that you can be charged with negligent just for not reporting this.

2. I can't see how addressing this in therapy could be anything but a good thing for your kids.

Hugs to your Dagna, I can tell this is something that you are struggling with, but I feel like both you and your kids would be better off if this addressed in therapy.

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1371 Location: Connecticut, USA

Dagna,

I have had to deal with this sort of behavior between my two boys, too - emulating N. It's painful to see, and it's sooo hard not to say to them "Just because you saw your Dad do it doesn't make it OK!" That's my first reaction, but I know it's the wrong one. What I have done is to speak individually to their therapist, not as a group, but one-on-one with her so that she knows what is going on and can address it privately with each of them in turn, without it turning into something bigger than it has to be. I've had good results. Communicating with their therapist is crucial.

I hope that helps.

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

Thanks for the replies. The issue with N is complex. There are legal protections in place regarding the kids.

My question has to do with the relationship between kids, not with N. But now that you've got me thinking about it, I should ask my question about family therapy to the kids' therapist. We haven't talked about it from that angle before.

The situation has been addressed in individual therapy, but that doesn't seem to be solving the problem. So I'm wondering if family therapy, with N there might be the next step. But maybe not.

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Dagna, sorry to say this but my gut feeling is if you go to family therapy with N there it could be disastrous. I think he would try to take control of the meeting, distort everything, blame you for everything (as they do) and leave the kids more screwed up than ever. Remember, N is the root cause of all this and I don't think he can be brought in to resolving it. After all, there's nothing wrong with him is there? (in his eyes) so how can he possibly help to sort things out? If you and the therapist were talking to a normal sane person who was doing something wrong, then there might be some hope, but not with an N. The further you keep N away from the children the better.
I still see it in basic terms so far as the children are concerned. Imagine a litter of puppies or kittens: They play together and they 'play fight' but if one steps over the mark and really hurts another then the immediate response is for the hurt one to bite back hard. No other animal intervenes. The other one learns its lesson and it does not happen again. I realise things are not so simple as this but at least discuss this angle with the therapist. In U K we are not nearly so 'therapist minded' and there is more tendency to resort to basic instincts.
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Sailor

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

Sailor,
I think you are right. I don't know why I can't just learn that he doesn't have the best interest of the kids in mind. It is just so inconceivable to me, despite the arsenal of evidence pointing the other way. I still can't wrap my brain around it.

I should be able to just let the kids 'work it out'. The issue really arose because I decided to see what would happen if they 'worked things out' but unfortunately in our situation the risk of serious injury (or worse) is very high. This seems to be the defense that works for younger kid, making it harder to curb.

(standard disclaimer: no, I don't let them watch violent tv, don't even have cable, and no they don't have video games, and are only allowed computer games that are educational and/or nonviolent, and yes for the most part they eat a healthy diet filled with fruits and vegetables and whole grains).

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Dagna, I don't for one moment mean that you should let the kids work it out between themselves then leave it at that, because N is the real problem here. As I said at the outset, this needs reporting to some authority and if you don't do so, then something terrible happens to your eldest, YOU could be held partly responsible. What I am saying is that the kids could sort it out between themselves simply by the eldest lashing out at the youngest. This would NOT sort out the root cause of the problem, which is N. You MUST report this to the appropraite authority, it is too dangerous not to. N himself could throttle your eldest to death. It's as serious as that! N sounds as if he is losing the plot completely if he is doing this sort of thing and he is very dangerous. If you don't know who to go to, try your family doctor or the police child liason, but you MUST do something.
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Sailor

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1371 Location: Connecticut, USA

Dagna, I agree with Bill. Therapy sessions don't work with an N present. It's all about them, always will be. No one else's needs will ever matter. Hard as it is to fathom, not even their own children's needs can ever come before their own.

We never tried family therapy, but we did do couples counselling, and it was disastrous. He often used our therapy sessions for some of his most abusive attacks. I would never want to subject the kids to it. They would have been terrified and confused, as I was.

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Dagna , I just sent a longish reply. into cyberspace!
I basically said you MUST report this very dangerous situation. YOU could be held responsible. N is very dangerous if he is doing this and HE could throttle eldest to death. You MUST report it. Sorting out the kids is one thing. Sorting out N is another!
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Sailor