Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Dagna: THIRD try: You must report this to authorities urgently. Sorting out kids is one thing. N is another!
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NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1370 Location: Connecticut, USA

Another thought - if the underlying feelings causing the violent behavior is already being addressed, sounds like what is needed here is simple behavior modification.

Zero tolerance for the choke hold, or any other violent behavior. I, for one, don't tolerate the sort of "litter of puppies" play that involves any sort of real aggression. It's one thing when they are both laughing and tumbling, but if one child says "stop", the rough play must stop immediately. Period.

I would continue to address the underlying feelings, and work to stop the inappropriate behavior as I normally would any inappropriate behavior. Don't make too much of it, it would make the kid feel too powerful, but implement whatever strategies you already use in your home, and be consistent. Time-outs, taking things away, banishment, positive reinforcement, whatever you use. I have read lots of books on the topic in the past because my younger son has been such a challenge, but it sounds like you already know what to do.

My kids' therapist does a lot of work with this, too. She is big on recognizing and addressing feelings, but also working toward more appropriate reactions and behavior.

I am starting to see my kids relate to each other better than they have in a long time. They are learning to communicate their frustration with each other without resorting to the N tactics they've been growing up with. It's sometimes one step forward, two steps back, but I can see them moving in a positive direction.

I do stress that the violence they've seen in their home is not appropriate, or even legal. I walk a thin line here, because I don't believe in exposing the N to his kids, at least not at this age. I want the kids to believe he is not a bad man, but his actions have been very bad. I tell them we are all good and bad, and we must choose our actions carefully. Dad made some very bad mistakes. We all make mistakes. I believe that if they see their Dad as bad, they will see themselves as bad as well. If they see that we are all both good and bad, they will have the power to choose their own paths.

Of course, all this requires patience, and that's not practical when there's a chance of real bodily harm. Response to this choke-hold situation will need to be swift and severe. I once cleaned out my son's room of everything but his bed and his sheets. I even took away his pillow. He had to earn it back, along with his blanket and all of his other belongings.

Is there something they can pummel other than each other? A pillow to punch?

If you think about it, your son probably feels completely out of control when he is crossing the line like that. Think of how comforting it is to the child to have a grown-up take control when he isn't capable of limiting his own behavior. It's not harsh or mean, it's actually comforting.

Sorry for rambling on so much. I have been in that situation with my younger son's behavior, and I know how scary and frustrating it can be. One thing that has helped me trememdously was talking to the school psychologist. She has been a wealth of information and support for me in that area. It's what they do.

LOVE the disclaimer, by the way.

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

Sailor:

I hear what you are saying. The situation with N is being dealt with. The things that have gone on are not secrets. I can't present the whole picture here. The child is protected. If you need more details let me know how I can email you.

Nancy,
I thought you would appreciate the disclaimer.
The problem is that the usual behavior mod stuff isn't working. Perhaps because it only happens every few months. This kid responds really well to positive reinforcement, but the star chart isn't particularly effective for such sporadic behavior. The time out, or the more serious loss of privileges haven't worked, nor has the hit-a-pillow trick. This kid is not very old. I think if N told him it was wrong of him, kid would listen. But yeah, that would mean admitting he was wrong, which isn't likely to happen.

disengaging · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 1342

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

no no no. The younger one is not stronger than the older. The older is extremely strong. This is a defense for the younger. It doesn't physically hurt the older one. The older one is all too capable of defending. That is not the issue. I don't think either one needs to be encouraged to fight.

disengaging · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 1342

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

Yeah. We have thought about tae kwon do. I should look into that again. It would be good for them both I think.

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1370 Location: Connecticut, USA

Dagna,

Both of my kids do karate. It's supposed to teach them not to hit, but seeing as the N has a second-degree black belt, and has actually been an instructor, take that one with a grain of salt.

It is, however, another support available when things like this happen. They have a terrific instructor who is more than happy to meet discreetly with them when a parent reports abuse of their karate skills outside the dojo.

Not all schools are as good, and it's really about the quality and the values of the instructor, so interview first and go with your gut. Also, they absolutely love the socialization. S14 has been at that dojo since he was 4. He also has a second-degree black belt, and has made some very good friends outside of school. There's also a lot of positive peer pressure involved.

disengaging · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 1342

fraggle_1972 · Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 570

I still think taking them down to the police station to let one of the youth liasion officers scary the bejesus out of them would work a treat.

Trinity · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 97

Dagna,
I believe speaking with a therapist regarding this situation is your best bet. If the children were to verbalize the incident and the therapist felt it was a strong enough incident (depending on all the circumstances) than he/she is required to report it.

I do feel like as parents, if we see behavior that we think is "acting out" or "mimicking" the N and it bothers us, that it is important to speak to a counselor or therapist. This behavior is in direct connection with the N...and it will be obvious when the therapist speaks to the children and even pulls the WHOLE family in if necessary.

I was concerned about my D's internalizing the N's abuse. The therapist asked the counsel us all together. My D and I came to the appointment, the N NEVER SHOWED UP.... he never showed up at ALL, to ANY appointments.... So it was obvious the therapist realized that his non-attendance, showed he did not give a CRUD about our D....

I have worked with children, and both my D and I have a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. The first thing we are taught is self control. But before you enroll them in classes to teach them MORE fighting tactics, it is important they work through why they are behaving this way towards each other in the 1st place.

Good Luck!

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

Thanks Trinity.
They are both in weekly counseling. Just had a visit today actually. I have a parent meeting with the therapist in the morning, so we might brainstorm again.

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Dagna, just a thought: I mentioned the choking problem to my D today, in a roundabout sort of way. As I said, her exN tried to choke her so she knows the experience. She also reminded me that the choking was very shortly after he held a very hot iron within an inch of her face (no wonder I had 'a few words' with him!) She can't come up with any better answers than already given here, but she did say that this happens constantly on The Simpsons. I can't remember the names as I don't watch it (even though part of me is only nine!) The father is always grabbing the son in a chokehold. Could there be an element of TV copycat here? I know it can happen, because when I went to the movies as a kid, I either came out as Superman or the best kid on the block with a cowboy lassoo! (or so I thought)
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Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 905

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livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 964

Summer,

Hugs to you for the pain you have endured.

I have a question, if N was found guilty of child abuse, why could your attorney not get you primary custody? Or is joint custody automatic in CA? Even when a parent has been found guilty of child abuse?

Have I ever mentioned how much I HATE THE FAMILY LAW COURTS IN AMERICA? Yes, eventually it worked for my daughter but the injustices I have seen through this group are unbelievable.