Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

sheenie2000 · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 169 Location: North Carolina

We were discussing different religious beliefs on our other board, so wanted to switch it off to here.

Nomore, I wholeheartedly agree that God is being taken out of our lives and we really need to get him back in his proper place. The world's morals are decreasing and I don't know where it will end. To an extent, sure we have freewill, but how much can we have and how much do we ignore what other people do and just let others live the way they want. I'm all for freedom of choice, but the way ppl have affairs all the time w/o caring, wild orgy parties, teenage pregnancy/sex etc, I personally don't like it and fear when I have children how I will protect them from all of these pressures. Parenting has a huge role in all of this but environment plays a role too.

I'd like to clarify though about how Islam treats women. The problem today isn't Islam, it is the Muslims. They are the ones not following the actual teachings of the religion. Suppose a Christian beats up his wife, it has nothing to do with Christianity but it has all to do with the man himself.
The actions committed by Muslims today are absolutely deplorable.

Women actually have MORE rights in Islam than a man. Today the media taints a terrible image of Islam as well as the Muslims tainting the image, they themselves don't know the teachings of the religion.

Islam stems from Judiasm and Christianity. All three religions have very similar basic beliefs with the exception of a major difference. Judiasm doesn't believe in Jesus, but they believe in one God. Christianity believes Jesus is the son of God. Islam believes in Jesus as a Prophet and as a respected man, however we do NOT believe he is a son and we believe God is only One and cannot be even compared to a human being that he creates.

The original Bible and the original Torah are beliefs of Islam. We believe that was God's word (at one point), however they have been changed and altered by man.

Ok I just wanted to mention all that, if you were interested. I hope I haven't said anything wrong or offended anyone, that's not my intent.
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"Happiness is not an accident. Nor is it something you wish for. Happiness is something you design." - Jim Rohn

Riccy101 · Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 287

Sheenie, Thank you for bringing the subject up before this board. In my humble opinion...

I think we all should keep our individual beliefs within our own hearts. As we write one another, we give spiritual direction in our words. However, there won't be any consensus among members here, on what religious belief is best. Instead, let each individual think what is best for him or her own self, and keep that separate from our intent to help others on the subject of Narcissism. I think we all, at least can agree, that Narcissism in itself, is sinful, causes pain and does not keep with the teachings of any religious belief. If we can agree to that, we have have found enough common ground to manage a healthy discussion on the subject that brought us all here.

By the same token, I wish that all members would be respectful when addressing invoking the name of God, if for no other reason than to be sensitive to all our members who believe in Him. I can tolerate our differences, but I can not tolerate blasphemy, and won't. Even an agnostic should be able to manage this amount of civility toward his/her fellow members. For the most part, I have found this to be the case, and I am grateful for that.

Riccy

ilovemusic · Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 151

Nomore, I wholeheartedly agree that God is being taken out of our lives and we really need to get him back in his proper place. The world's morals are decreasing and I don't know where it will end. To an extent, sure we have freewill, but how much can we have and how much do we ignore what other people do and just let others live the way they want. I'm all for freedom of choice, but the way ppl have affairs all the time w/o caring, wild orgy parties, teenage pregnancy/sex etc, I personally don't like it and fear when I have children how I will protect them from all of these pressures. Parenting has a huge role in all of this but environment plays a role too.

here is a few of my thoughts on God at this time in my life...

I thought it was "God" who is/ and was / exposing all the "lack of morals"
in the firt place. if that is true then "God" is in his proper place, is he not?

Look at the character of Solomon? didnt he like he "possessions", women (lots of them) was he the character who had a "conkubine"?

Do you think some of the great characters of the bible would come under physciatric labels today?? I sure do

Didn't Jesus say
" It is the sick who need a doctor" I did not come to call the righteous, but the sick go and learn what this means

It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners’

the carnal lusts of the flesh will always be there..... it is talked about in the bible because it was there, just like today (orgies, affairs) etc.. Greed
additctions etc etc

maybe these people already know they are sinners....

Ibelieve in God and I deffently believe in Jesus, but I can tell you i have a very difficult time with "fundemental" christianity ,it is becoming more of a smere campaign of the sick... to uphold those who think they are righteous in their own eyes

ps- I also believe that if Jesus were here today in our generation, walking the streets preaching the same message, saying the exact same message

he would be locked up....... classic manic depressive in physchosis:-)))

goodspirits · Joined: 07 Apr 2007 Posts: 80

This topic is HUGELY winding me up. I was reading with fascination but now I feel I HAVE to say something in the spirit of helping you find some peace from your traumas.

The answer to WHY this happened to you is that it was a very, very unfortunate accident. You are not being tested or anything quite so complicated. The explanation as to why these awful things happened to you is down to science. He/she is damaged psychologically and inflicts/ed pain on his/her child BECAUSE of the damage inflicted on them - and acting out of their own traumas from the past in some way. THAT IS ALL!

Will this release you all from thinking you have to find a reason why it was you or why God allowed a child to be abused?

I am a newly committed atheist (just returned after searching for something else for a couple of years - I was pretty convinced by the age of 11 that I was being fed fairy tales). Understanding the scientific reasons behind why he acted as he did towards me, including why it happened to be me - pure coincidence/bad luck - no more mysterious than who might be in the coffee shop tomorrow morning but with far more disasterous consequences - this was actually the key to MY recovery. Obviously whatever works for you is good....

Why me question and even worse the why is God testing me or whatever? Its like a very unfortunate horrendous car crash - no other meaning than that - could have been anyone. I recovered FAR quicker from anyone who is battling their 'faith' being shaken as well. Its a double whammy for the religious.

Please please read Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion." You don't have to be 'converted' at the end. But it is so worth thinking about it. The whole point is you don't LOSE anything you actually gain something. It may save you all from agonising over why "God let this happen to you" when you are already having to deal with deep trauma.

Love and hugs from the UK - we are getting VERY worried over here about the upsurge in religious conflict. UK is predominantly non religious. We have our problems but NOT on the scale of the US. Its terrifying me.

Goodspirits

(name merely means I am in Goodspirits because I have recovered)

ilovemusic · Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 151

I believe in God and I don't have the "why me" delima, perhaps it is more a human thing than a God thing?

goodspirits · Joined: 07 Apr 2007 Posts: 80

Well obviously from where I am coming from it is TOTALLY a human thing.

You get your leg broken in an accident with drunk driver...... He chose to get drunk - maybe cuz girlfriend dumped him... who knows. You spend next few months in pain and in plaster recovering.

Science can explain the healing process. In the above case its an X -ray to find the location and what sort of break it was. Court can track the driver down - sure it will help to know why the nutcase ran you down and drove off in the first place. Sense of justice required. Making your bones immobile so they can rest while they knit together and then of course its the exercises after while your leg builds up to its original strength.

I am hopeless at these metaphors but you get my drift I hope.

Oh and then you take much more care crossing the road for the rest of your life instinctively...

Same with this - find and understand the cause, take the action needed to allow healing to happen and move gradually to recovery

Totally a human cause in both cases. I really don't think its helpful to think that somehow 'God' had this planned for you.

I have a very very close male friend who has been locked in a terrible cycle of guilt, physical pain, anxiety, depression and fear. He was brought up strict Jewish and is now atheist - it was him who gave me the book. When his girlfriend was killed in a car crash his 'helpful' mother said he must have done something bad for this to happen to him. Karma thing. She is more a New Age ex- Catholic (I know - explain that one - actually he was adopted by Jewish couple) but it amounts to same thing - some sort of judgement by higher power that brings these things awful sufferings you way in your life.

I can honestly say it made him very ill, suicidal (cuz yeah he wasn't a complete saint in his 20s!!) and incapacitated even 6 years later. So I feel very strongly about this because since reading our Richard - dare I call him St Richard Smile

my friend is a changed person with a renewed vigour for life and its wonderfu to see. I was on suicide watch this year he felt so low sometimes. We have been an enormous support to each other.

Therefore I can say without question that my greatest support and healer has been human too. (My friend, therapist and people on here)

Goodspirits

disengaging · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 1342

ilovemusic · Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 151

>>>I think psychiatrists today would have an absolute field day with John the Baptist. <<<<

I garee, but not only with John the Baptist, Job and Jesus at the top of the list

>>>Oh Lord, no! Not here in America where we have freedom of speech--no problem! We could put up nice little soapboxes for him to preach on in our major cities and tents all over the countryside and suburbs! Just like we do with other evangelistic preachers. <<<

Actually the evengelist preachers do not make the claims that Jesus made they believe in him and they spread "Jesus's message", but they are not making the same claims .....

What Jesus had to say would most deffently attract the attention, fall on the ears of the physciatric profession

but hey everyone is entitled to see Jesus their own way... even if he was a madman, it doesn't make his gospel any less true in my eyes

I just see him my own way Smile

ilovemusic · Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 151

>>>I believe that all religions have a nugget of gold within them...<<<<

Totally agree Smile

!!!!!

disengaging · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 1342

lemondroppr · Joined: 10 Feb 2007 Posts: 1416

Beware of abuse in the name of righteousness.

Anyone ever read Joseph Campbell or see the series of shows on PBS years ago? It was truely insightful to me about the "Power of Myth" and how many of the worlds religions have basically the same stories and reasons to explain the human condition and trying to come to terms over the idea of a God or a higher power, and how humans came to be, etc. etc.

In my opinion, many of the religious views, laws and commandments were originally intended to be forms of social control. Think of it like a government, I suppose. There are many religious ideals that are truely shame-based, oppressive and discriminatory, imo.

disengaging · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 1342

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1461 Location: Arkansas USA

Good discussion, ladies----

My take on any "religion" whose followers will KILL "nonbelievers" for the crime of non-belief is that it is a "false" use of a good principle.

Christ says "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" --so if you (the collective you) go out and say "Love Jesus My way, or I iwill kill you" then you have obviously perverted what Christ was saying and are NOT a "Christian" (which means Christ-like).

In the world's history most "religins" have persecuted people of other faiths. I doubt that there is one of us on this forum who has not had an ancestor who has been burned at the stake or killed for his/her religion. And, also has not had another ancestor that lit the fire to burn the first one.

The Puritans came to this shore to find "freedom of religion" but when they got here, they practiced the opposite and persecuted or drove out those that didn't agree with them.

During the Crusades of the middle-ages, European "Christians" went to "rescue" the Holy Land (their definition) from the infidels and felt it was their "Duty" to do this "rescue"---the defenders were protecting their own "Holy places"--each was "righteous" in their OWN EYES. In my eyes, for what it is worth, they were both UN-righteous.

WArs have been fought and people have died for religious ideas, for political ideas, and for greed. We are programed to the Us=good and Them=bad, by whetever the particular thing is, religion, language, skin color, life style, political beliefs. "They" are not "worthy" and WE are Worthy. Sounds kind of narcissistic doesn't it?

I believe in Christianity, but not in the organized way it has "evolved" by taking on the traditions of men. The teachings of Christ are not Narcissistic and they are not oppressive, they are to "do good" and give a pattern of how we should live our lives that is a healthy one. I can't find a single passage in the Bible where Christ or his apostles said that "If you don't believe us we will kill you." They did not preach an "Aggressive" gospel. Why should I believe that I should?

I have also studied other religious beliefs, and there are good things, in them all. In philosophers who were not religious there are also nuggets of gold. I see nothing in any of these religions or philosophies that is "bad." I have some friends who are Buddists and they have been vandalized in their home here in Arkansas multiple times by "Christian" vandals, trying to drive them out...here in the 21st century in the good old U S of A. Appauling to me.

In discussing religious beliefs many people become "defensive" or "angry" if a person disagrees with their own. I try to keep an open mind about all beliefs and will listen with respect to anyone's beliefs. I can't "prove" God exists, or if God is a He or a She or an It--so why should I get excited if you think God is a She and I prefer "He?" I want to learn about other's beliefs and interpretations, not disuade them from believing as they do. If I see something that I think is good in their philosophy (whatever their religion is) then I will incorporate that philosophy into my belief system, even if I don't incorporate their total belief system.

Open communication of ideas between cultures, people, communities, is the only way society can work without wars, discrimination, etc. Acceptence of diverse beliefs is difficult, though, when one (or more) groups is in the "Accept my beliefs and act as I command you, or I will feel justified in killing you." That's where the problem comes in. When people think that BELIEFS or lack of them justify killing or persecuting someone else, it all breaks down.

I have spent time in Africa and seen and experienced many different kinds of belief systems, political systems, discrimination, clashes between cultures, clashes betweeen the haves and the have nots. It is difficult for a person to witness persecution of people for ideas, and not get the is not the cause of the problem. So if my daughter is raped (as they are doing now in Africa) by a Muslim in the name of his (perverted version of) his religion, I can say that almost 100% of the people persecuted in this way wouldl "hate" the religion of the perpertrator of the violence.

Sir Laurens van der Post, who was a South African white man who had spent time in Japan in the 1920s, ended up in a Japanese prisoner for war camp in Java. It so happened that because h e spoke a few words of Japanese from his previous trip to Japan it saved his life. After enduring beatings, starvations and witnessing horrible beheadings, burying his comrades alive with just their heads sticking out of the ground, never the less, stayed on after the war to try to STOP the war crimes trials and to preach forgiveness of the Japanese to the victors. Van der Post was a Christian, but he also respected the gods of and philosophies of all religions. I have read most of the works of Sir Laurens, and his philosophies of peace and tolerance. He was eventually recognized world wide as a peace maker.

It is a shame there are not more men who believe as he did.
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Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.