Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Kathryn Sullivan · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 8 Location: Estacada, Oregon

Hi I'm new to the Board and am absolutely amazed to find that 1. I'm not crazy, 2. I've spent 20 years dealing with a mentally ill person 3. other people have experienced this behavior and 4. maybe someone can help us.

At this stage I need to know if there is a Court Accepted Psychological Evaluation for SB or N people?

is there a test which can be given which definativetly diagnosises SB or N as a personality disorder.

Has that test been introduced and accepted into the courts?
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Kathryn

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

WElcome to the board,

Dr. Robert Hare (lots of stuff on the net about him, he's Canadian) spent his life studying psychopaths (also called sociopaths, Antisocial Personality disorder etc.) and he developed a PSYCHOPATHIC CHECK LIST that if it is administered by a trained person can be used in courts of law.

Narcissists are the "most benign form" of the disorder which increases up to "full blown" Psychopath. Of the psychopath (most disordered ones) some are violent criminals without remorse and some are CEOS of big corporations that steal from investors with impunity.

None of them are capable of "normal" emotions and empathy. They all use others for their own "benefit" and desires without any remorse at all.

They are not capable (their brains aren't) of feeling love, emptathy and any kind of self sacrificing emotions---but they have learned to FAKE these behaviors that indicate those emotions. Many of them are quite good at it, and would win awards for their "acting."

There is lots of information here on this board and other places on the net. There are many good books and I highly recommend that you start with Dr. Hare's book "Without Conscience" it is a very good one and gives a good overview. Therea re between 1 and 4% of the general population who would qualify, and about 20% of the criminals in prison and jail who would qualify. Not all are criminals and not all criminals are Ns or Ps.

There seems to be a pretty good indication that much of it is genetic (from identical twins raised apart studies) but some is of course environmental.

Good luck and if anyone here can be of help, please hang on here and read adn learn and post at any time. There is usually someone here to give you some information. This forum is a life saver for sure!
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Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

Kathryn Sullivan · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 8 Location: Estacada, Oregon

Thank you for your help,

Half of my problem has been getting other people to believe me, my husband (not my son's father) my parent's brother's & sister's believe me, but attorney's judges? it's a hard sell
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Kathryn

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

I am so sorry you are embroiled in this. I hve a son who is a psychopath and he is now in prison for murder--started the big criminal acts at 17, but had been sneeky enough not to get caught prior to that, although thiaere was one instance at age 11.

Prior to age 18, the "diagnosis" (label) is Oppositionally definat or some other label. I used to work in a psych, and am a retired registered nurse practitioner. Since they are not yet 18, docs don't like to hang a label on them, but for an adult label of psychopath they must have started it BEFORE 18 yrs old.

The kids KNOW right from wrong, they just don't give a flip.

This is fairly COMMON believe it or not, and the juvinile psych units are full of these kids. They can be DANGEROUS becaause they do not have any idea of the potential consequences of their behavior.

i suggest that you get your little darling to a psychiatrist that specializes in KIDS, in my state, Arkansas they are RARE, but there are 6 in the state here, so I know that there are somein every state.

Your son may also be ADHD as well, and many times they have more than one diagnosis. It is also possible that he might be bi-polar, but usually thatj doesn't show up til late teens.

Thre is no way I can give you any kind of diagnosis without testing and a lot of other stuff, and it needs to be face to face, but maybe this will give you some idea of which direction to go. DO NOT GIVE UP.

Believe me we wish there was someting magic to make them "shape up" but theproblem is that they DO NOT WANT TO.

As far as "believing you"---THERE IS NO ONE ON THIS FORUM THAT WON'T BELIEVE YOU---we have all lived through it with spouses,relatives, children, etc. and having people NOT BELIEVE YOU is standard operating procedure. Between the disordered person making you feel "guilty" and abusing you, and your friends and family telling you that you are crazy it is very "crazy making"---

Unfortunately, if I had known what I know NOW (20:20 hind sight is great) I would have turned mine over to the state and criminal courts at age 17 when he got into serious law breaking. As it is, I have had 20 years of a night mare of worrying, trying to help him, and hoping. Twenty WASTED years. 20 years of PAIN, ANGUISH, FRUSTRATION ETC ---there is a big genetic component in this disorder. My biological father was a psychopath of the worst sort and my son who never even met him is a carbon copy--even their expressions are the same.

I wish you much luck and pray that God will give you wisdom with your child. I KNOW how painful it is, I have been there, and finally cut off all correspondence and visits with my son and will be at his every parole hearing to beg the parole board to NOT EVER LET HIM OUT. I even made a DVD of me begging them, and so did his brother, so that in the event of our deaths before he gets out of prison that our images and our words will be at the parole hearings---until he is 75 years old.

Believe me, know it is difficult to tell what is normal rebellion at teeanged years (or even before) and to "give up" on your kid when they are so bright, so much potential and somuch promise. I hung on to denial and maliginant hope for so long that it finally got to the point that I had to face reality no matter how much it cost in terms of pain and anguish.

This is probably the one place in the world where NO ONE willdoubt your pain or the validity of what you say! I think quite frankly that this forum saved my life. My son, even from his prison cell 400 mil4es away was scheeming to have me killed for money. If I hadn't fled my home he would have I have no doubt succeeded. His Trojan HOrse Psychopath and my daughter-in-law (another son's wife) are both in jail lnow awaiting trial and my son (her husband) has fled the state, we have left our homes on land that our family has resided on for 150 years because as long as my son P is alive or the others, we will be in danger.

Only a very few of my friends took me seriously, including the son whose wife was involved in trying to kill him, they stole from my elderly mother and had her convinc ed I was crazy and violent and after her money, it sounds like a Jerry Springer show--the BEST of Jerry Springer! LOL

But the peopoole here believed me, and helped support me and my healing. I am not "over it" yet, there are still down days, but in therapy and working on healing, and have come a LONG WAS from the constantly crying, frantic person I was when I logged on here a few months ago.

Keep strong and FOLLOW YOUR GUT. ((((hugs)))) and Prayers for you and your child too.
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Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

Kathryn Sullivan · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 8 Location: Estacada, Oregon

Thanks for your reply, the person I believe is a Serial Bully/ or Narcissist is my 10 year old son's father.

We are embroiled in a nasty, nasty battle over my son's right to play soccer. I have full custody of my son.

Hi father creates elaborate (I mean elaborate) scheme's to hurt me unfortunately my son get caught in the middle.

Yesterday's pick up event pretty much sums up what I've dealt with for 20 years, I document everything, this went to my attorney last night.

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Okay, now that I know more or less "the story" it is easier to pick all this stuff out---

1) your XH sure SOUNDS like he fits the N criteria

2) it sounds also, just from what you told about the "story"he told about the boy playing soccer is that I don't believe a WORD lf the "attack" the boy had, if it lasted that long, ANY RESPONSIBLE PARENT would have called 911 immediately.
I think this "seizure" episode smacks of Munchousen's by proxy.

3) you did right driving away, even though that was of course a ridiculous demand that he made about the timing. HE IS A REAL CONTROL FREAK.

Yes, you have your "work cut out for you" and the boy is still young enough that HE can't make the choice to not see his bio-father. Also, he is young enough that the N can say the kid's story isn't believeable or is a lie if the kid's story differs from his.

First off I would get your son evaluated by a CHILD PSYCHOLOGIST then a complete medical examination. It is possible to tell if your son has had a seizure or ahs any other problem on that order.

Getting your X evaluated is probably not in the cards legally if you live in the US, and Ns are GREAT at evading the issue, and it takes a really well trained specialist to see through their CRAP and lies (They are GOOD usually) Great actors, and even fool professionals frequently.

Part of the problem too, is that you are trhing to protect your SON from him, so what does he use as a "weapon" to get to you? Your SON of course.

This is all a game to him. a GAME and to you it is LIFE AND DEATH and the wellbeing of your son. So he uses your son as a club to hit you with, and then chuckles behind your back when you get upset or concerned. HE GETS ATTENTION FOR HIMSELF, and narcissistic supply. It sounds also to me that he is in the mid-range to upper range of the disorder as far as the intensity of it, more toward the psychopathic end of it.

Doesn't mean he is a "criminal" or that he doesn't have brains or a job that pays well, or anything like that, just that he is mean to the core and ENJOYS it.

So getting him "declared" a psychopath or Narcissist is going to be difficult, first you would have to have an expert in the disorders to be able to do it "for sure" and you would have to get him to agree and cooperate with the process (fat chance on either case)

All I can suggest is that you and your son go to a counselor and talk to the counselor about all this. They should believe you and see into some of his tricks and be able to advise you on some of this stuff. Keep docukmentation and get your son checked out medically so that you can at least have that in your file.

Good luck, and sorry for the misunderstanding about WHO was the N/P, I am sure glad it is NOT your son, that is very very painful and I am also glad that you are not with this N/P and that you have a good supportive husband to help you. God bless you and I will continue to pray for you and your son. ((((hugs)))))
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Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

Kathryn Sullivan · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 8 Location: Estacada, Oregon

I picked up the Hale book today very interesting read...

The one question I can't find a definitive answer to is this:

As I continue to disengage from this person and give in to the abuse, would/could he escalate to physical violence towards me or my son?
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Kathryn

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Dear Kathryn,

There is a thread on this forum for Divorce and Custody issues, and I think yiou need to start on that thread too, not that I am pushing you away by any means, I will help you all I can.

As far as "violence" is concerned, thisis just a WAG (wild ass guess) but I consider his "story about the seizure" with I think is PURE FABRICATION is "violence and child abuse"--his "let's see what story the boys tells" is that he knows the kid won't tell "HIS" "truth"--but THE truth as far as he knows it.

My main suggestions are :

1) get the child medically evaluated and tell the doctor wht you think about the "seizure" so it can be checked for

2) get the child psychologically evaluated and into some counseling because he WILL NEED it in dealing with his father sooner or later. If at all possibole don't let the P know about it--but that may not be possible.

3) get you some counseling to help YOU deal with this monster

4) Document everything--get you a tape recorder, the new tiny digital ones are so small and so good and pretty cheap now.
A) find out if taping a phone conversation witout both parties knowing it is being done is legal in your state. In my state, only one person has to know andit is legal. but not in ALL states.
B) correspond as much as you can and communicate with him via e mail and save them.

5) see a good attorney that works with custody issues.

Never underestimate your enemy. They are cagy, craft, maliscious, mean, nasty, nothing is too low for them to do, or too Petty for them to do, and CONTROL is their reward. ATTENTION of any kind is their reward.

You might try "agreeing" with him, and let him think he has more control than he does, like you did with the driving off and returning only a few minutes later (an unreasonable request on his part) it made him feel "powerful" that he had "won" by inconveniencing you....DUH! what a "win"---right!? But any kind of "win" is important to him.

Is he the one that doesn't want your son to play ball? What are his "stated reasons?"

Does he pay child support? Is this a thorn in his side? That might be a bargaining chip. Frankly most of the time these guys don't really care about the kid except as a way to get to interact with and give you grief. You might try having someone else pick up the child and return him to you rather than YOU doing it...that sometimes works. A friend, your mother, your husband, anyone...the less you interact with him, \the better off you will be, he will "get worse" for a while, but ultimately when he sees that none of his tantrums will get you excited or get a "rise" out of you, he will stop having so much fun at your expense.

Good luck sweetie, and I will keep you in my prayers. Hope some of the other moms on this forum can also help you with more advice. Peace
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Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

Kathryn Sullivan · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 8 Location: Estacada, Oregon

I don't know if the moderator can move this thread to custody & divorce (i have a BB and am able to move threads).

But you ask a few direct questions so if you don't mind, i'd rather stay here for now.

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Kathryn,

Sounds like you are a bright and resourceful woman, good for you. The problem is, these people HAVE NO CONSCIENCE and their ONLY goal in life is to GET ATTENTION and CONTROL.

It is pretty obvious to me that he is using your son as a club to hit YOU. If some way you can keep your son supported during the time that you REFUSE to "react" to him...then maybe he will eventually find another "hobby" and move on. As long as he is getting "satisfaction" gouging you in the gut by hurting your child, he will continue to do so.

HOW to accomplish that is the question. I was suggesting counseling for you so that you could have a good advocate to see and help you with ideas etc. When we are upset (believe me I know this for a fact from personal experience) sometimes we don't "see the trees because the forrest gets in the way." Something that would be obvious to an outsider who is not emotionally involved might slip right past us.

With my own situation although I am a mental health and medical health professional (not retired) I became so aggitated myself that I was not functioning at a reasonable level logically. Keeping your head is imperitive in this matter. It is difficult to do when your kid is being "attacked"

This Munchhausen By Proxy (pretending your kid is sick when he isn't) "seizure" thing (that is what it sounds like to me, but you need to get a medical and a psychological eval of your kid to prove it) is pretty far gone to me. I am not sure he might not give the kid something to make him actually sick. I knew a nurse once who did this to her daughter and made her child very sick. It was only using video cameras that she was caught doing it---while the kid was in the hospital. I had suspec ted it for a long time before it was proven.

Radio shack sells a bud-ear piece that you plug into your recorder, put it in your ear and then hold the phone up to your ear with the bud in it and it records both sides of the conversation. I have used it quite successfully several times. There are other devices too, check on the net and radio shack for them. You might also get some of the tiny cameras that record either to a computer, DVD recorder or VHS tape and put one where if he comes to your house to get your child, or even in your car they can be hooked up so that you can record every encounter. It is also possible to "bug" your kid's back pack with a recorder and pick up something from time to time if you are careful. Might have to sew it into the lining or something. You also might contact a private investigator, they are relatively cheap.

If you have the financial resources to do so, "go to war FULLY ARMED" with everything you can even imagine. There are even microphones that can be pointed at a window and will record and hear what is going on in the house, conversations, etc. I am not sure what is legal in your area and is not, but a PI ought to be able to tell you.

It is VERY obvious from what you said about the way he reacted when you were preg with your son, the DNA test, the birth certificate etc. that he CARES NOTHING for the kid except as a conduit to you to "mess with your head"---

Maybe with all your resources you can get "supervised" visitation with a psychologist's or psychiatrist's help. Keep in mind they are GREAT ACTORS and sometimes can fool even professionals.

Read Hare's b ook, then get on the internet and LEARN AND READ all you can about Narcissists (the lowest for on the ladder) and work your way up to Psychopaths (also called anti social personality disorder, or sociopaths.

Look at his "life story" and see how much of these things apply to him, the more the better. Some of them are Charlie manson types, and some more like Ted Bundy, very crafty and cunning and appear "very normal" if you didn't know that they killed people at night when no one was looking.

My biological father was one, he just died recently, but because he was on the forbes 400 list a time or two, he got away with a great deal. My son is incredibly bright--99.9th percentile---but is meaner than a rattle snake and just as loving and caring. Fortunately, my son has been in prison all but a few months since he was 17 (he was born in 1971) BUT NOW he has learned to "fake" emotions, and reptentence, and philosophy, and such...really good at it until he becomes frustrated then he goes into high gear RAGE. For the time being I am in the driver's seat and will domy best to keep him in prison for life. (he is in for murder)

But I do know that as long as he is alive, the rest of us are not safe from him so will have to move from my home where my family has lived since 1833--but am more than willing to do that to preserve my safety and sanity. It is as if the sweet, bright, smiling little child I had is DEAD and the demon that keeps his adult body animated is NOT my son. I have no affection for him, only fear and disgust. I had not seen my biological father in 40 years, and when he died had always assumed I
would "dance a jig" but in fact, I felt NOTHING--not glee, not sorrow, just Nothing.

Kathryn, hang in there, keep your head and plan your stragegy against your Monster X, and do whatever you have to do to protect your son, legally and morally. Get him out of your lives as much as possible, and safeguard your child emotionally with a good therapist and maybe things will get better soon. God bless, you dear, and good luck to you. I will keep you in my prayers. I don't know if you are a religious person, but all this has brought me closer to God than I have ever been and I feel strongly that He has answered my prayers better than I coulde ever have imagined---he not only got one Psychopath out of my life, but 4--My son, his trojan horse P, and my other son's wife, and my bio-father as well. So for the first time in many years, my family is psychopath FREE Laughing

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Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

Kathryn Sullivan · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 8 Location: Estacada, Oregon

Do you mind sharing more information regarding your son? did he murder a family member?
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Kathryn

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Kathryn,

Most of my "story" is already on here, but no, he murdered a "friend" who was involved with him in a credit card scheme. When they were caught, and their scheme was so dumb it was sure to be quickly found out, she threw herself on her family's mercy (as she had frequently done in the past) and "told on" him. Since he was on parole (even at age 20) he would have gone back to prison, so he planned her execution for this horrible thing she had done--to turn him in. Carried it out in the most awful fashion then admitted he had done it. Obviously he wasn't real bright as a criminal----and was arrested the next day.

To this day he BRAGS (or threatens depending on who he is talking to) about the fact that his crime was MUCH WORSE THAN THE COPS KNEW. He THREATENED this line once when he was very frustrated with me (trying I think now to scare me into cooperating with him) and I have a letter he wrote to his Trojan horse Psychopath K that he infiltrated into our family to do his bidding BRAGGING about this.

My P-bio-father also used to BRAG abot the many people he had murdered and gotten away with it. I am not sure he actually did murder them, I only know of two that he actually did murder--one was witnessed murder, and the other was "the man disappeared and was never found."

I think my son imulates his bio-grandfather though he never met this monster. He is however, now, much more "slick" about pretending to be a philosopher and "christian" and this ability to suck me in by pretending to be so philosophical, forgiving, etc.

Because, as Dr. Hare says, they don't see the inconsistencies in their "act" (because they pretend emotions, not feel them) sometimes they are very "at odds" with their pretenses. One of Hare's examples is the P mother who says, "Of course I LOVE my kids" but has no idea that acting that out would include feeding them, or clothing them, etc.

That inconsistency of emotion vs actions is what makes me think your X's "holding your son while he had a seizure" instead of calling 911 is inconsistent with what a reasonable parent would have done. He doesn't KNOW what a reasonable parent would have done. I am a medical professional and if my child, or anyone else I knew had a seizure (especially a first one) I would have immediately called 911 and gotten them to a medical facility ASAP for a complete evaluation. Peopole who frequently have seizures sometimes you don't call every time they do, but that is only after they have been well evaluated and are under treatment.

About your question of was it a family member my son murdered, the answer is No, but---murder between friends and family is much more common than between strangers. Many of these murders in my opinion, I am not sure if statistics will back me up, are because the killer's are Ps who have been frustrated by the victim and go iinto a rage. Sometimes it is cold rage (my term) but never the less, rage. Revenge. Plotted and planned and executed.

If your deeper question is "could I drive this man into enough of a rage that he would kill?" I do not know, and my only advice about this is that you NEED TO NOT UNDERESTIMATE HIS CAPACITY FOR EVIL, and at ALL COSTS BE SAFE.

When I say ALL COSTS, I mean A-L-L costs. I up rooted myself from my family's home since 1833 and LEFT and went INTO HIDING. I am still there in a temporary safe place--an RV in a holiday area where peoople don't "notice" someone "new" or think it strange or ask too many questions about you being there--you're on holiday. I have no intention of ever going back to my home to live. When I left, I took only essential personal items (papers etc) a few things to stock the RV (sheets, towels, etc.) some clothing, and last, my dogs. I actually managed to get out before the Trojan Horse P knew I was gone and I "disappeared' and he had no way or idea or the resources to find me. I firmly believe it saved my life, as they went to Plan B, but that ended them up in jail. YOu might ask, if they are in jail, why are you not safe? They will never give up is my answer and even if they are physically in jail or prison, they will get one of their convict friends to execute "revenge" on me for putting them there. It was not their crimnal behavior that put them in jail/prison (of course) but all MY fault (in their eyes) and so they are very justified in seeking revenge against such a person as me. It is all about THEM. They are unable to acknowledge that their own behavior put them in prison. They do NOT learn from their mistakes.

It is almost like dealing with a "superhuman demon"--and is the thing of which nightmares are made. You think they are "dead" and they come back to life to haunt you as a ghost. It is sometimes, I think in my case anyway a "The Best of Jerry Springer." People also don't want to "believe" such things until they are involved themselves.

READ and READ and LEARN--read some of the threads here about the way people have been treated by these monsters, and then been sucked back in for more.

At least you are away from this monster--but look back at how he abused you and you still went back for more, trying in the past to "normalize" him, to think he HAD to have had some good, some emotions, some empathy---JUST WHAT YOU ALREADY TOLD ME is enough to make me know he can be charming and manipulative.

I am sorry though, that your previous therapist didn't realize and clue you in to what Ns and Ps are. I can't "long distance diagnose" this man, but he sure sounds like one for sure--and if it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck and flies, it just might be a duck. Educating yourself and your son about the personality disorders is your best defense against this man. I think Robert Hare, who studied these people for his entire career is a good place to start, but there are 1,000s of pages on the net and on this site which are also good information too.

God bless you Kathryn, you have a difficult road ahead, but I think you are bright enough and determined enough to win this war--just be careful. PLEASE be careful and don't underestimate this monster...and what else could he be to care so little about his son--which is obvious from the way you say he acted when the boy was smaller. But he does know that YOU care about the boy, so he USES him. I will keep you and your son in my prayers (and I believe God answers those prayers--not maybe the way we think should be done, or at the time we think is appropriate, but He answers them in a BETTER WAY at a BETTER TIME and in ways that He knows are for the best. I trust that He loves us and will take care of us.)
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Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

Kathryn Sullivan · Joined: 09 Sep 2007 Posts: 8 Location: Estacada, Oregon

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Dear Kathryn,

That is one of the questions I guess we all ask ourselves at one point or another--NO! REsoundingly NO!

The only thing I can suggest is that you LEARN AND LEARN AND LEARN. Just like in WWII the allied troops didn't have to become Japanese to "whip em" but we had to LEARN HOW THEY THOUGHT...Psychopaths are a different "culture" than we are. Words don't mean the same thing to them as to us. Their brains are hardwired differently.

Ifg I say the word "love" to you, YOU know it means that you feed, care for and nurture your child. They know the WORD but not that it really has anything to do with "nurturing"---Other people are supplies of "adoration" and "Narcissistic supply" but not "people" to them. We are like cattle to give them "emotional food" and if we don't do what they want us to at the time they want us to, they feel no more "guilt" slaughtering us than I would sending a cow to the butcher. I used to raise "natural" meat on my farm---nor hormones, antibiotics, etc. and if I had a cow that "didn't produce" a calf every year, or kicked at me, or any problem with her at all, off to become "meat" and no guilt on my part. They view US the same way, as "supply"---

There is NO HOPE of changing them by "therapy" or "medication" or anything else---because THEY don't see a NEED to change--now they can "pretend" to "be sorry" but it is just as much a pretend emotion as "love"--they are onnly sorry they got caught--it is all a GAME to them. Even if they "lose" they get the adreniline rush--the challenge, the thrill, etc. All 2 yr olds and most teenagers are Narcissists to some extent, but they out grow it and develop a conscience---it hurts the kitty when you pull it's tail. Poor kitty, I won't do that. Not the N or P---skin the kitty alive and see what fun it can be. (Many Ps are animal molesters and killers and torturers---not all, but many) My son actually "loved" animals much more than he did humans and at least gave a good pretense of caring for them.

At least your P is not someone you love NOW, that's the up side. BUT, the down side is that he is connected to your child that you do love, so he will use the child as a base ball bat to hit you with, as long as you "react"---

Yes, you are right, the people "in the system" don't always believe you, and the Ns and Ps are SLICK.

Today I started a new therapist and I spent 2 hours telling him about my last 3 1/2 years of hell and the last 6 months where my son plotted to have me killed---and he actually asked me to bring in someone else to VALIDATE my "way out story"---I actually was NOT offended because the story is THAT way out! I am almost embarassed to tell lawyers and therapists about this "jerry springer episode" of my life---it is too much "white trash drama" for my taste. LOL

IMO you should find you a therapist that BELIEVES you--REALLY BELIEVES you---not because you don't "know" all this stuff, because that is what I did for a LIVING--i know it, IT IS JUST THAT WHEN YOU GET IN THE MIDDLE OF IT ALL---you "can't see the trees for the forest" and you need an OBJECTIVE "partner" to keep you from killing the jerk! To talk you down from the rages you may go into. Not that you "can't control" these yourself, you CAN--the point is though, that the "insanity" goes on and on and on and on and on, and how much more can I take? OMG! I can't believe he would do THAT! etc etc.

I am one helll of a "strong" "Can do" woman, but let me tell you, I have been "snookered" "fooled" "Conned" and out smarter so many times I have lost count. Psychological Torture of prisoners of war is COMPARED to these people and they may never lay a finger on you! I do NOT mean to belittle people who have been in prisoner camps during war, but I am just saying that these people can BE AS BAD. In many, in way too many, even one is too many, they kill their victims. But way more are scarred for life by the emotional abuse. This is the frustration I am hearing coming from you, and your feeling of powerlessness against it.

Your frustration in looking for an advocate---and that is why I suggest that you shop around until you find a therapist that is adept at dealing with these folks. Someone who KINOWS how they think, professionally knows. You and many many other women and men have this same problem in dealing with shared custody, you are fortunate to have the brains and resources to hang in there and the good sense, but I don't mean to discourage you in any way, but get ALL THE HELP YOU CAN MUSTER. Get private detectives, tape recorders, video cameras, anything that you can even imagine...and use them all, and it will still be a FIGHT.

And, plan to stay in it for the long haul if you have to. Your son's therapist can also help you to "explain" (slowly and in an age appropriate way) to your son what is going on so that he is FOREWARNED AND FORE ARMED in dealing with this man.

My own personal problem with both my son and my bio-father is that I tried to "normalize" them, assume that they had SOME GOOD in them, that there were limits to the evil they would do and conspire to do. There aren't any limits to some of them. Others, there are some "social" limits, but what they do in secret is another matter. This tendency is called "maligniant HOPE"---it keeps you sucked in, thinking, that there is some "magic word" that you can find that will "make them see"--there is not.

They are NOT normal. Their motives and "goals" are NOT any that you can really comprehend. There is NO way you would hurt your child just to "get even with your X"---HE WOULD, and it would not bother him one bit. He would chuckle about it.

Go to the Bible and read the story of Soloman. Where the two women are fighting over the one baby and Soloman says "well, we will just cut it in half and give half to each woman since we don't know whose baby it is. Of course the REAL mother says "Oh, no, give it to the other woman" and the thief says "That's fair, just cut the baby in half." The thief/mother is the Psychopath. She would rather the baby died than the real mother have it. The real mother of course LOVED the baby and wanted it to live even if the other woman got it. That is a good example of the "thinking" of a psychopath. Of course, the wise king knew who the "real" mothr was by the one that actually loved it, but unfortunately, not all our judges are so wise.

Hang in there, Kathryn, I don't' mean to sound discouraging, you CAN win over these monsters, but it takes planning, cunning, stratagey and every resource you can muster. It isn't always easy either. They are cunning and in many cases like bull dogs won't let go. You have to figure out some way to "bore" them, not react to them, not give them what they want, make it unrewarding to keep on with their "schemes"---and like a naughty 2 yr old they will keep breaking things until you "notice them"---and even punishment is negative attention and that is better than NO attention.

When I joined this forum in May of this year, I was "absolutely" beside myself---whipped, down, scared, my life in danger, and only a few friends beside me---this place has been a god send.

Look on the Divorce and Custody thread, read on there there are bunches of good LINKS put on there by Fem Free. She is one of the moderators here and there are all kinds of great folks on the thread. Get to know them and READ AND LEARN. That is your best offense!

(((Hugs)))) to you lady! You are in the RIGHT PLACE to help you keep your sanity and help your son and defeat this SOB in the end! Looking foward to the day you can post "HE IS OUT OF OUR LIVES!" God bless you , dear.
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Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.