Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Seachelle · Moderator Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 102

Truthseeker2, I'm curious. If you believe Dr. Sam Vaknin is himself an N, why would you post on a board he is so involved in? Has Dr. Sam Vaknin said he is an N or is that only Dr. Peck's claim? Question

Imho, it is a serious claim and, if true, it concerns me very much and I will look for another board to post on because I am trying to avoid N's, not look to them for help. If this is merely the opinion of Dr. Peck and yourself, then you're entitled to that (as is Dr. Peck), but be aware that such a claim might discourage some people desperately seeking support and help to avoid this board (whether or not the claim is true).
Thanks.

Seachelle · Moderator Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 102

baby_kay · member Joined: 05 Mar 2008 Posts: 237

This post brings up something in me, that I just remembered, in relation to Seachelle's sharing of the email, and all the details behind and in front of her NM doing so. First, I remember when my husband and I were going to get married, she pulled him aside and told him, I had a chemical imbalance in my brain, and that accounts for why I can't tell the truth, and why I lie!!!!!!!!! My husband and I had been good friends for about 3-4 years, and he knew first hand what my mother and family situation was up front. He told her, that he knew that that was not so............and that she must be the one with the brain imbalance. It was the first, first hand, experience he had with her and her craziness. I had forgotten about it, what with all the crap over the last 15 years she has done. They project. Whatever they are about, they project onto otheres. Seachelle, the horrible things she wrote tell more of a tale about her, than you. And she does this, to illude the responsibility of HER ACTIONS, while you stepped out and helped her out. You put your life on hold to help her, and she crapped on you, (which is what they do) then they flip it, so to justify themselves. A simple thank you for your kindness, and care would be nice, but she is not capable of it, so she slanders you. My mother and yours are the same. My mother slanders me, as a mother, wife, and as a person. She slanders my husband, and has slandered my kids. The thing now is, no one is around to listen or care. Seems you mom has no audience anymore either, so she tried to bug you through your husband. The only motive is to get someone anyone to listen to their made up crap. They are still sapping us for their supply even in NC, and even though you have no emotional attachment to her. They will never change, and it does come across evil. It hurts and it is done purposly to hurt us, for their expense. I am truly sorry for your heart, and know that all here support your efforts, and now healing. If she makes her bed, once and for all, she will have lay in it, as miserable of a woman as she is. Whether or not they CHOOSE to be this way, is something we can not know. We just know us, and their behaviors are not right. And.............people eventually see it for what it is. And with that said, you can not even pity them, because they are threir own worse enemy.
No good vs evil, just protecting ones ass, from the harm and constant condemning and hurt from our N parents. And excepting them for what they are. And having faith in ourselves to get on with the joy of living a meaningful existence. Thats our job. The only business that is at hand. To constantly dwell on THEM only makes them happier. So..........we just get on. They produce what looks like and feels like evil, but are they truly evil???? WHo know and quite frankly who gives a shit. At the end of the day, they suck, hurt, pound, and ripe our hearts out, and those of good people, and for that maybe they already live in their own private hell on earth. SO.....to all, no debate is needed when what happens to us is our own decision.'
Peace

Seachelle · Moderator Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 102

thayilflies · member Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 520

"No good vs evil, just protecting ones ass, from the harm and constant condemning and hurt from our N parents. And excepting them for what they are. And having faith in ourselves to get on with the joy of living a meaningful existence. Thats our job. The only business that is at hand. To constantly dwell on THEM only makes them happier. So..........we just get on. They produce what looks like and feels like evil, but are they truly evil???? WHo know and quite frankly who gives a shit. At the end of the day, they suck, hurt, pound, and ripe our hearts out, and those of good people, and for that maybe they already live in their own private hell on earth. SO.....to all, no debate is needed when what happens to us is our own decision.'"

I agree with all of this. Accepting people as they are is difficult. You want your parents to be the parents you want! But realistically each person has their own journey through life and you just can't expect of someone what they can't provide. I think the best approach is to life is to tackle it is an individual soul and deal as best you can with all the other variables the tongue of life spits out. One of my favourite books is "The Dhammapada" - The Buddha and Jesus are both A-OK in my book. I think they are both pointing to one the Truth but I will refrain from going on about this because there is no point at this time (I just can't help myself). Rolling Eyes

But to quote old mate Buddha on the importance of cultivating oneself:

"If a man should conquer in battle a thousand and a thousand more, and another man should conquer himself, his would be the greater victory, because the greatest of victories is the victory over oneself; and neither the gods in heaven above nor the demons down below can turn into defeat the victory of such a man."

So the point is that life is an individual journey, so if we can become completely independent souls then this is good news indeed! Far more productive than blaming others and focusing on who has done us wrong in the past and dwelling on the bleak is to take the approach of self-realisation or cultivation of self. Fulfilling that untapped potential we all have but most neglect! Part of that cultivation is working through the issues of the past that have led to whatever predicament we find ourselves in but the focus should primarily be on oneself not on others.

We don't want to be like Napoleon and try to conquer the world for no particular reason. We want to conquer ourselves. This is the ultimate victory and the reward is peace, harmony, happiness, love and all the good things that make it worthwhile to live! The things we really want!

Finally, I think attributing "evil" to strange human behaviour is perhaps being over dramatic. I think "evil" manifests as a symptom of fear and pain. To attribute more meaning to something that is in reality quite simple may be a mistake. Sometimes us humans make things out to be bigger than they are. I do it a lot. I habitually complicate instead of simplify! Rolling Eyes

TruthSeeker2 · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:18 am Post subject:

Seachelle, Wink

when I first came across this forum, I didn't know anything about it. My cyberfriend sent it to me. I started to read the postings. I didn't know anything about Dr. Sam Vaknin, and I'm not saying he's a for-real narcissist. I don't know that. I gave you the quote from Dr. Peck where Dr. Peck himself said it. It has nothing to do with me, and I'm certainly not looking to stir up controversy/trouble. I have enough stress in my life without that. I was just startled to hear Dr. Peck say such a thing about the guy who started this site. I told you where to find the entire article, if you want to read it for yourself.

Yes, it is a serious claim, but I'm not the one who made it. I'm not looking to ruin anyone's reputation/name, perish that thought. Dr. Peck said it in black and white, and I don't know nearly enough to say whether or not I agree with him about it. I just put it out there for people to read because it was so startling, and I'm not trying to discourage you or anyone else from seeking help and support from this blog. And yes, if Dr. Vaknin turned out to be a genuine N, I don't blame you for not wanting help from the very type of person you're looking to escape from. I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression by what I wrote. Maybe I didn't express myself as carefully as I should have, but I'm not the one who originally said it nor am I saying I agree with Dr. Peck about it, okay? I just reported it. What I agree with Dr. Peck about is his take on evil, Evil or Very Mad

the subject of the article. Is this misunderstanding settled now? Question

_________________
Be civil to all, social with some and known by few.

limited · member Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Hello Seachelle and Truth Seeker,
I have never read Sam Vankin's book on narcissism, "Malignant Self Love", but he has some excerpt from the book and a lot of other articles on the subject, available online. I read some of them, by any means not all of them, and I had the impression that he himself stated to have NPD. He realized to suffer from NPD after his whole life unraveled and lost his job, the woman he was with and ended up in jail. He also states that NPD in incurable and NPD people are incapable to look at themselves critically and therefore realize what their problem is exactly. Now the big mistery for me is...how come he, Sam Vankin, could, contrary to his own statements came to this realization. After reading your posts, Seachelle and Truth Seeker, I did have a moment of doubt. Could it be that he is actually talking about a fictional character? I'm going to give you a link to the site I mentioned, so you can check for yourself. I think his material is interesting.
http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissisticroots.html

http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissistwasted.html
(Copy and paste, then you have to scroll down the page)

TruthSeeker2 · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject:

Hello, Seachelle, limited, thayilflies and baby kay/Kim, Wink

First, it's nice to see you here in this topic, baby kay. Haven't seen you for a while. Surprised

Well, as for Sam Vaknin being a narcissist, it looks like he is, because he has said so himself very openly in the excerpts used from his book. I read the info about him you sent on the link in your last posting, limited. So, I guess that's settled. No second and third party hearsay or quotes from an article. It's from the man, himself, and he's written his story in the book. Not a fictional character, either. I ordered his book, Malignant Self-Love, too, and another one called Why Is It Always About You? by some Hotchkiss individual. And Seachelle, you see now I never made any "serious claim", so no harm intended or done. I suppose Dr. Peck knows Vaknin's history, which is why he said what he said. Thanks, limited, for supplying the link to the direct information as "proof", so to speak. You must be a good researcher.

Yes, I know what you mean, limited, about it being a big mystery as to how a narcissist could be capable of helping others suffering from the abuse dealt by fellow narcissists and have set up a forum. Vaknin sounds like he was, indeed, a virulent narcissist. We know by the very nature of this mental illness that it can't be cured in most cases because narcissists are incapable, maybe congenitally, of accepting criticism, correction, and change. They can't admit to anything, cry (I have never seen my NM cry, absolutely never.) or say they're genuinely sorry. Therefore, what happened with Sam Vaknin is most unusual for a narcissist. I think what may have happened, judging only by what I've learned about NPD and from Sam Vaknin's own personal experience, that he saw what he had lost in his life, and that scared him enough to force him to take a good look at himself and make the connection the problem was his, not theirs (jail, losing wife and job etc.). NPD is for the most part incurable, but occasionally, I suppose, when the N sees what's at sake if he/she continues on this destructive path, he realizes he has to change. A kind of self-interest motivates change, yes, because the narcissist's life is one of loss and is a mess by the time he gets to the point of having to face it. Do we know his change is genuine and complete? That's hard to say, and I can't say it with any certainty since I don't know much about him. It's a question that is asked about narcissists all the time. Can the change be trusted? Could it be another N maneuver? It's hard to say. Sam Vaknin will have to fight the battle all his life to stay on top of it, because that narcissism is so ingrained. As for a narcissist's ability to help others, gosh, that's a tough one. Perhaps in Sam's case, the shock of realizaton was so profound, so deep that he said to himself "I have to get this NPD out there on the map because it's so horrific and who better to do than a person like me who has it but has got it under control for the most part?". That supposition, but who knows, maybe something like that happened with him. I don't agree with his take on evil and whether or not narcissists are evil, but perhaps he's struggling with that issue himself. A little too close for comfort to admit narcissists are evil. If it looks, walks and smells and sounds like a duck, it's a duck. I suppose we'll just have to see how it plays out. If Sam Vaknin's rehabilitation is genuine, more power to him, because he's one in a million, that's for sure. Surprised

Perhaps some brave soul should could ask the man, himself. Question

_________________
Be civil to all, social with some and known by few.

limited · member Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Hi Truth Seeker,
I think that S. Vaknin had a moment of insight, almost a moment of enlightenment, in which, due to a total loss of NS, he realized his problem. I don't know if, just because he is aware of his NPD, he's actually "changed". According to him this kind of change doesn't happen. Being an "expert" on his own disorder can be gratifying in itself (most knowledgeable, many publication/honors, and lots of people looking up to him). I see his publications as valuable, even if he's affected by the disorder that he analyzes and discusses. It 's like a rare glimpse in the mind of a NPD. He gets his NS and we get to see what's really inside the mind of a narcissist. Our insight-less N-parents use too many defensive walls, lyes and their need for NS from close family doesn't allow us in. Sam Vaknin gets NS by giving out information and "shining" for his knowledge. I think it would be very wise to keep a critical mind reading any literature, including his.
Let's the sin vs. disorder debate rest: we can agree that we disagree, and I have the feeling that nobody else wants to continue on this subject. :^)

TruthSeeker2 · Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:51 pm Post subject:

Hi, limited, Wink

Thanks so much for your most recent posting. You made a lot of valid points about Sam Vaknin's possible motivation for helping the victims of his disorder. That's why it's so difficult to know if, when an N "changes", it's genuine. Could be he's "getting off" on his position of facilitator of NPD knowledge, writing articles, having debates and reading his own forum. Could be that's his NS. These people are so full of deception that to keep ahead of it is mind-numbing. I agree with your statement about it being wise to keep a critical eye/mind open reading any literature, including his. Of course, I will because that's the kind of mind I have. That's the kind of experience I've gained in the world after all these years of being a survivor of an NM. I never take anything so important at face value. The only reason I took seriously what my cyberfriend and fellow sufferer sent me in the beginning about NPD is because it rang so true in my case that it hit me like a wrecking ball. Shocked

Talk about a moment of enlightenment, that was it for me. So, we've settled the issue of Sam Vaknin's being a narcissist since it's out there for all to see, if they look for it and read it.

As for the sin vs. disorder issue, let's just say it's a little of both, really. I, too, don't want to beat this issue to death and cause dissension among the ranks. I just put it out there for people to do with whatever they want. I don't need to keep at it and surely don't want to. All I want is peace. All any of us want is peace. Thanks for not tearing me apart about it, limited. Embarassed

And by the way, would you mind telling me why you chose the user name of "limited"? What meaning does that user name have for you? What does it say about you? To be limited, as we all are in many ways especially because we've been crippled by NP's, means we're confined, restricted, held back or restrained, bound by certain strictures in our scope, our abilities, in some way. The lack of life skills in our youth and how we all had to make up for it and learn the hard way in our adulthood is a topic here that went into the subject of limitations to some degree. As for my user name, the meaning is obvious. Smile

Keep up the good fight. Very Happy

_________________
Be civil to all, social with some and known by few.

lynn1234 · member Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 769

Limited.. I agree with you that we did not become N's because there was someone there in our family to show love and empathy for us and although our childhood was hell I think our N's childhood was PURE HELL and they weren't able to cope with it the same way we did..

TruthSeeker...
I think our N's childhood was just enough worse than ours to create our N's.. or they lacked skills to cope with what they were dealing with... I know my NM saw far worse abuse than I did.. Her father beat her brother with a stick regularily and there has been hints of sexual abuse by her father towards my uncle (her brother)! I can't imagine the horror although I had my own living with an NM who was also a drug addict.. But I had a close friend who I am still friends with.. I bonded to her.. and I recieved love from my baby sister who I nurtured...I think I found love and balance by nurturing other people.. sister,.. friend.. dog... to keep my sanity.. I started to give love and created what I wasn't recieving from my NM... My NM went inward and shut out the world out of fear and anger.. Her parents sepperated the kids so that they didn't bond with eachother for the most part.. I have no doubt that if my NM had recieved love in childhood she would not have become an N. For that I feel sad...She is a broken human being... I wish she could be healed but looks like there is no cure for an N..If she is evil at this point I don't give a crap either.. like Baby-kay said...
Let God judge my NM if she is evil or reacting out of fear, pain and jealousy all a result of her evil up-bringing by a sadistic N father who was also severly abused as a kid....It's up to God to judge my NM if she is evil.. certainly her actions aren't usually kind but anyway. it's up to God to be the judge...