Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Seachelle · Moderator Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 102

First, sorry for the long post. But my heart is broken right now and I need to get it all out. I hope that's okay.

Crying or Very sad

Well, my NPM sent an e-mail to my husband's account. It is really my account but she didn't know that. I created it because before she came to live with us she wanted to send my hubby an e-card and he didn't want her to have his "real" e-mail address so later I just used the account myself for times when message boards, etc. needed an e-mail address.

I sobbed after I read this e-mail. I have just never been so hurt before. I don't understand this--and I don't understand why she would outright lie to my husband when he's been with me all these years and knows the truth? Is she that delusional?

My husband said, and he is right, that to let her hurt or scare me is to let her win. But I can't help being hurt. I mean, wouldn't you be?
Hubby wrote back to her and, I guess what I'm really afraid of is what she might do next. She terrifies me.

bubblers · member Joined: 31 Dec 2007 Posts: 37

Seachelle,

Wow! Is your mother, my grandmother? We are going through this exact same thing in our household. It is sad when they get old and start making this stuff up out of nowhere. You're so lucky to have a husband as loving an supportive as he is. Just my two cents, but it almost seems as if you have a mix of a narcissist and senility/dementia on your hands. My great grandmother would acuse me of stealing her money, when I was 5 yrs. old. And now my grandmother is saying the exact same things, that we're ( hubby and I) are having family gatherings and not inviting her, we're not calling her(not true) she just doesn't remember and not helping her when she needs it. She has a very "Selective Memory" . I've washed my hands of the situation and if any other aunts or uncles want to jump in and care for THEIR mother, more power to them. If your mother has access to phone, internet, email, then she has ways to find help she needs if it ever gets that bad for her. You've done all you can do and bless you for doing it, because I wouldn't beable to take my grandmother in. Bubblers

Serenity710 · member Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 84

Hi Seachelle,

I'm Serenity710 -- I've been on the group for a couple of years but haven't posted much lately.

First of all, you are entirely within reason to be hurt beyond belief. Your NM is very, very hurtful. To be hurt is normal and natural -- it doesn't mean that she has won. All these years our dysfunctional parents prohibited us from feeling our real feelings. Now, as an adult, you get to feel them as long as you want to. You have the right to be hurt. Your mother is a horrible Narcissist.

Second, people with NPD lash out when they are challenged or attacked -- or even ignored. If we don't give them N Supply, they lose it. Any attention is better than no attention for a person with NPD.

I have been through similiar experiences with my own NM. When I confronted her about the way she treated me, she lost it and lashed out. I was so hurt and couldn't understand it.

Then I came to this discussion forum, and I read books like "Children of the Self-Absorbed," and I realized that there was no changing her. She was disordered, and always would be, and her treatment of me would always be abusive -- unless I was giving her undying flattery and adulation.

Well, I can't do that. So I have chosen the other two tools of recovery: NC and JADE. No Contact, and no Justifying, Arguing, Defending or Explaining as to why I have No Contact. Anyone who knows my NM knows why I have NC, and they are supportive of me.

It took me a very long time to get to this point. Probably about 10 years after I first realized how abusive she was, and about 6 years after I started really learning about NPD.

All my best to you, Seashelle. You are not alone. Your mother doesn't deserve a daughter like you. Give your love to someone who can return it to you. Most of all, give your love to yourself.

--Serenity710

Seachelle · Moderator Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 102

Thanks, bubblers.

LOL, I used to live in an area of the country that called drinking fountains "bubblers'.

Anyway, yes, she is getting senile in many ways. Hard of hearing. Hallucinates sometimes--she once told me two men were peeking in our privacy fence and rattling the gate but there was no one there. She won't use one of her bathrooms because she swears every time she does a 'possum (or raccoon sometimes) runs over to the skylight to look at her. Sigh. Sometimes she doesn't hear well, gets dates and people wrong--example, she told me she attended my high school graduation and we sang a certain song, she wore a mink coat and took me out, etc. Thing is, she wasn't there at all. My dad and stepmother were there, not her.

I am sorry to hear of your troubles too but glad to know you're coping.

Before this, although I didn't want contact, I couldn't bear to leave an animal hungry. I'm the type of person who goes and buys good for derelicts I see with signs that say "Hungry". I thought I had compassion. But now? Now I think I've lost any compassion for this sick, twisted person.

I told my husband that now that I've had a couple days to get over my grief over this, if she does try to harm my dogs or tries to further damage my reputation or marriage, then I'll pull out all the stops and have her committed. I have tons of evidence--before we took her in, she would send me sometimes up to 15 e-mails a day and want to chat too.

I feel as if I've aged a lifetime in the past couple months. And now I'm experiencing anger. I hope that's normal because I'm not usually an angry person--I try to understand and put myself in the other person's shoes, usually.

Good luck, bubblers!

TruthSeeker2 · Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:46 am Post subject:

Hi, Seachelle and all others here, Wink

Wow, Seachelle, your story is heinous, just plain heinous, one of the worst I've read here. Another shocker was baby kay's, who I got to know on some other topics where you posted as well.

First of all, Seachelle, perhaps you've changed your mind about how wise it was to have ever taken this demon into your home based on your compassion. When I read your reasons for having taken her in and that you don't regret having done so, I said you're very altruistic and that a lot of us could never do that. It's not for everyone. That was a polite way of saying "stupid move". I didn't want to hurt your feelings in any way, but now I'm going to say it as it is. Well, perhaps now you see it wasn't really for you, either. That you're still willing to help her from a distance is okay, and that's what I want to emphasize here. DISTANCE is very important to have between an NP and you. It is a survival mechanism. Your NM took advantage of your good and compassionate heart. That's what NP's do, look to use a weakness they perceive in you as a means to their end. Any time you do something for an NP, especially something sacrificial like you did, rest assured it will come back to haunt you. Therefore, learn from this and never do it again.

What your NM did when she moved into your home was to invade it. It gave her an opportunity to gather information, to get the lay of your particular land so she could eventually use it against you, and now she has. Do you see that now? As bubblers told you, you've really done all you can do. Let her go and don't concern yourself with what happens to her and let it get to you. She has reaped what she's sown - evil. Twisted Evil

You let a snake into your house and knowing NM is a snake, didn't you realize at some point she would bite you? After all, she's what she is. I'm alluding to that popular moral story about the snake who tried to convince someone to pick him up and put him into his coat to warm him. When the snake bit him, the person asked why, and the snake said he was still a snake. N's are human snakes. They can't help but to venomously bite. Twisted Evil

DISTANCE is something I've always kept from my NM even though she has always tried to lure me in. I would never take her in or go to live with her. She even made an offer to buy a 2-family house with us. I'd rather die first than ever be in so close a proximity to her where she could get at me. We live 60 miles away, close enough for a visit but far enough away so we can't be at her beck and call. Really, Seachelle, that's what you need to do. Now that she's gone home, how far away does she live from you? If it's far enough away, good. Keep that distance. Keep that boundary. If she lives too close for comfort, MOVE, if you can. I have a cyberfriend and fellow sufferer who moved four (?) states away. Unfortunately for her, she's married to an NH, so she's still suffering big time. Crying or Very sad

You're very blessed to have such a kind and understanding husband who appreciates and loves you. He protects and shields you and comforts you when you're hurting. He even wrote your NM that very articulate and level-headed e-mail. If I had been the one to write it, I would have been a lot more forceful. I guarantee you your NM will not understand what he wrote. I'm fortunate and blessed to have a Superman of a husband who is my buffer against my NM. I don't know what I would do without him, which is why, I suppose, God blessed me with him. He knew I would need such a man. Take comfort in and enjoy yours! Smile

You asked why do they lie and destroy lives, especially the lives of those closest to them. In another topic, I explained the nature of evil in this world from the standpoint of the Bible, which is what I believe. I did that close to the time when I first started posting here in May. I will just say briefly here that we live in a sinful and fallen world. When God kicked Lucifer out of Heaven, where do you think he landed with all his fallen angels - here. And he's been corrupting this world ever since. If you want to read what I wrote about that in more detail, it might be in one of the first topics I posted in. Dr. Vaknin is a narcissist himself. I found that out while reading his discussion with Dr. Peck, who believes N's are evil and is not afraid to say so. Perhaps Dr. V was hesitant to call N's evil because that would mean then that he himself is evil. I believe N's are evil, as Dr. Peck does. What they are is so horrific it goes beyond mere sickness. Twisted Evil

Seachelle, you spoke of the degree of hatred, anger, loss of compassion for her (Remember sympathy for a devil is a door that lets him in.) and the resolve to put her away if you have to. Resolve is good. It shows you've become stronger. The buck stops here! Well, welcome to the club! You're normal! Perhaps you had to get to this point of no return with her before you could start to heal, and the feelings of rage are a part of the process. Perhaps now you can better protect your boundaries and deal with evil from a position of strength. I found out about NPD a couple of months ago and am still in shock Evil or Very Mad

over the magnitude of this evil. Gotta accept the fact that half my DNA comes from an emotional soul-sucking serial killer. The tremendous rage is there, too, along with being in a constant state of fight or flight anxiety. We all go through it. Evil or Very Mad

If you don't have a therapist, do find a good one who can help you through this process and give you affirmation and strength. Smile

I really hope what I've said here has been able to help you and encourage you along the path to healing. Keep up the good fight! Very Happy

_________________
Be civil to all, social with some and known by few.

lynn1234 · member Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 769

Seachelle..
I am sorry to hear what your mother has put you through recently..It reminds me that N's need constant attention and they don't care if it is negative or postitive as long as they are in your life..

N's will try to force their way back into our lives when we have backed off.. I don't know what triggered your mothers anger.. maybe she feels that she isn't the center of your life and you have backed off a little bit or maybe she is just angry from something totally irrational.. In anycase it reminds me of a situation I had with my NM.. She said something to me that really pissed me off and when I confronted her about it she lied and then tried to make me look like the bad guy to my husband... my NM has always tried to poison my relationship with my husband usually in suttle gaslighting ways.. She used to plant doubt in my head about his sincerity on things and told me lies like he is controlling etc... My NM has also slandered me to my husband when she hasn't gotten her way with me...

These N's think they can fool everyone and they can fool some but not us.. I think this causes some of their anger towards us... Also, they think that our Husbands would actually go against us and side with our N mothers.. My NM slandered me to my husband last year and then wanted him to see her twisted side of things but my husband did what your husband did. He protected me and sided with me to my NM's shock and surprise.. These N's are so used to manipulating people they do it all the time.. They are big bullys and can't handle it when people don't bow down to them and give them their way even if their way is distructive or hurts you... they don't care who they harm as long as they get what they want and if it's not given to them then watch out!!! They will start a slander campaign to all who know you....
We have to come to a point where we are strong and can not let the slander affect us.... Recently I have let go of worrying what my NM says about me to my grandmother.. My NM has also slandered my husband to all my relatives and painted him in a disgusting light even though he is one of the most gentle kindhearted people you will ever meet.. I still get pissed off about that but for the most part I have let that go.. I can't control what my NM does and I can't control what other people think when she does her slander campaign..
But NC keeps my frustration down with her...Just yesterday my NM called my husband again. She is trying to get back in with me and thinks she can manipulate my husband..But he knows she is an N and I have chosen NC...so she can't win this battle...Now, for the most part I don't care what she says to anybody about me.. If they can't see through her B.S now they will later so I have hope that I will be vindicated.. Already and uncle of mine thinks she is totally crazy because of something she did to him when he was sick.. she was hopeing to inherit some money if he died... she started to get in the middle of him and his wife.. So other people war seeing what she does... I am not gloating over it, it actually makes me sad but at the same time... I just want to encourage you to not let your mothers slander or twisted lashing out on you hurt you too much.. She is a sick person with a mental illness and the email was a symptom and evidence of her disorder... Your husband cares about you and loves you.. you have eachother.. your NM will probably go into hideing now for awhile since she didn't get the reaction from you or your hubby that she was hopeing for.. I think that she was hoepeing that he woud side with her but it didn't happen... N crazy makeing..... Confused

lynn1234 · member Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 769

I just wanted to say that I think it is perfectly normal to feel the way you did after getting your NM's email... just that be encouraged.. your husband is by your side and your NM didn't cause the devide that she wanted between your husband and you....
Take care...

Seachelle · Moderator Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 102

Truthseeker2, I am very fortunate that my NM lives more than 1500 miles away.

I still don't believe in evil people, only sick people who may do horrible things to others. I don't understand why you believe Dr. Vankin is an N. Did he say he was? Or do you believe that only because he doesn't believe N's are evil, only sick? I'm sorry, I haven't read his discussion with Dr. Peck, which is why I'm asking you to explain further.

No, I would never take her in again. My husband tried to warn me but even he felt so sorry for her and so we took her in. I won't do it again. This time the NC is permanent.

Thanks.

Seachelle · Moderator Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 102

Lynn1234, you mentioned your uncle realizes your NM is crazy.
Gotta tell you, my NM had 5 siblings who all had NC with her and, in fact, two sisters and one brother went so far as to leave directions and money for us to hire security guards to barr her from their funerals. Another aunt and I followed their instructions.

Hearing your story, and reading others in the other forums here, I realize I'm not alone and while that makes me glad, I feel so bad that we all have this in common. Good luck to you and thanks for your reply.

TruthSeeker2 · Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject:

Hi, Seachelle,

From your posting of Thurs., 6/5/08:
"I still don't believe in evil people, only sick people who may do horrible I c things to others. I don't understand why you believe Dr. Vankin is an N. Did he say he was? Or do you believe that only because he doesn't believe N's are evil, only sick? I'm sorry, I haven't read his discussion with Dr. Peck, which is why I'm asking you to explain further."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the link to that article: http://www.narcissisticabuse.com/evil.html

Here's a quote from a section of the article (entitled "Evil"):

"STOPPING THE NARCISSIST and Concept of Evil

Dr. Peckl If you have ever lived in quiet desperation fearing the release of rage from the narcissist, then decided to stop the abuse, you have been the victim ofa campaign designed to destroy you. It is as systematic and well-thought-out as that of any battle plan of war.

Sam Vaknin disagrees: As opposed tot hwat Scott Peck says, narcissists are not evil - they lack the intention to cause harm. They are simply indifferent, callous and careless in their conduct and in their treatment of their fellow humans.

Dr. Peck: I READ THIS AND RECOGNIZE THE NARCISSISM IN THE WORDS. BECAUSE SAM IS A NARCISSIST, he can say "simply indifferent". Sam does not see that indifference is never simple. The results of indifference, callousness and carelessness are destructive and malignant. In a talk he gave at the White House, Elie Wiesel, concentration camp survivor and philosopher, says that from anger and hatred we can often make a difference, but to be indifferent is evil."

Remember that Edmond Burke quote: "All it takes for evil to thrive is that good men do nothing."

I put in bold upper case letters the part of this quote where Dr. Peck says Vaknin is a narcissist and then explains why he said that. Believe me, I wouldn't make this up about a person. I agree with Dr. Peck, not Sam Vaknin. I see Vaknin trying to weasel out of Wiesel's statement. I agree with Wiesel, too. Righteous anger against evil is the only way to deal with it. God has righteous anger and so can mankind when faced with abuse, injustice and anything wrought by evil people. Indifference is being a Caspar Milquetoast and by omission and default allows the evil to go on. Indifference is a facilitator of evil. One can't have sympathy for the devil, as I said before, or be indifferent and lukewarm when dealing with evil. Notice the two words - evil is devil without the d. I find that to be very interesting, because the devil likes to hide his evil. What an illustration of the nature of evil those two words actually are. It's almost as if he took the d out so you wouldn't see he's there and that he's the source of all evil.
Twisted Evil

Do you understand it better now? Why not look up the entire article for yourself?

I still say, Seachelle, that you can't afford to have compassion on your NM because she will use it against you. No sympathy for a devil. These types need to be dealt with by righteous anger, force and strength. Mad

It's good that your NM is so far away. Make sure she stays far away . . .
_________________
Be civil to all, social with some and known by few.

limited · member Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Seashelle, what your mother did to you is really a demontration that N can NOT feel love or empathy. I am really sorry that she sent you that @#$% e-mail and I feel your pain. I disagree with Truth Seeker, though. The concepts of devil vs. evil as express by T.S. is purely a religious one. Seachelle's mother is mentally ill. A mental illness that she did not ask for, maybe a predisposition to mental disease she was born with and, possibly, abuse of some sort that she endured when she was a child. What she does now is nasty and causing Seachelle incredible pain that she doesn't deserve and should not endure. So NC is a great idea/solution. If we are angry it is fine to feel angry too. I certainly was very angry for years. Even without knowing about narcissism I knew that my NM behavior was unjust, irrational and unloving.
What I disagree with is to demonize a disease. It does not make any sense to me. Even if we consider evil as defined by Webster, we don't really know how much of the N behavior is actually a choice, libero arbitrio or just a incredibly strong, mostly subconscious drive to do what they perceive is needed for the survival of their facade, that to them is really the survival of themselves. Staying away seems the best choice, otherwise we have to emotionally detach from them and see them for what they are, with an anthropologist eye...

thayilflies · member Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 520

On the topic of "evil." When people are ignorant they behave in ways that we sometimes call evil. When Christ was nailed to the cross what did he say: "forgive them for they know not what they do." They know not what they do.

My personal feeling is that "evil" is a myth. People are conduit to err but evil isn't inherent in anyone. No one is born evil. People are conditioned to hate the world and are conditioned to be morally blind. But in the same way that you can't condemn the visually blind for bumping into you, you can't condemn the morally blind from acting out of ignorance. They know not what they do.

Doesn't mean you should subject yourself to other people's insanity but it is difficult to point the finger at someone who doesn't know better. I believe that it is dangerous to categorise people into "good" and "evil." Each and every person is blinded by the veil of ignorance to varying degrees.

We can attribute other peoples stupid and strange behaviour to "evil" if we want to but it is of no use. It is unfortunate that people act out of toxicity and to be on the receiving end is a bitter pill to swallow but they know not what they do. Simple as that.

TruthSeeker2 · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:03 am Post subject:

Thanks, limited, for your input, Wink

Are you an anthropologist, per chance? I don't deny you made some very valid points about NPD being a mental illness and the circumstances that create it. You are right about that, but you're addressing the symptoms of evil, not the source, and unless you address the source, you can't in my view effectively fight evil. Speaking of disease, treating the symptoms may bring temporary relief, but it won't cure the disease. I know a lot of people nowadays feel uncomfortable with the concept of God, the devil and religion in general, especially the Judeo-Christian, Biblical explanation of the origin of evil. That's because it gets a little too close to home, and people just don't want to deal with the problem of sin. However, one can't avoid it in discussing evil or to be effective in fighting against it. It is on the very primal and elemental level spiritual warfare. In explaining evil and whether or not the word "evil" should be applied to NP's, I go to the very core of the origin of evil. Twisted Evil

You have every right to express your opinion here, limited, but how can we fight an enemy if we refuse to see exactly who and what it is. NPD is a mental illness for which there is only the slimmest hope of a cure, because these people refuse to see where the problem originates and blame everyone else but themselves. Where do you think mental illness comes from when you get past genetics and environment? Why are there such things as mental illness to begin with? Because we live in a fallen world. NPD is the result of evil and is evil, no two ways about it. Few of us "normal" people ask for the things that befall us in this fallen world, but because of the condition of the world, they are bound to happen. There are people who choose evil. There is random chance. There are those who will do anything to survive and do it without a conscience. They are called psychopaths. People like Seachelle's mother go beyond sickness. My NM, though not as overtly malevolent, made her choice and she is evil. That is not an easy thing to come to terms with, for sure, and the shock Shocked

of it is where I presently am on the journey to wholeness. It doesn't help the sufferer to pussyfoot around it and make excuses for (enable) the NP. Confused

Why is it we made the choice to not follow in the NP's footsteps or let them defeat us? Because we were born with a conscience which guides us toward goodness and they weren't. They are evil. Period. Exclamation

_________________
Be civil to all, social with some and known by few.

limited · member Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Truth Seeker,
You have the right to say what you believe in this forum too, but you seem not to be able to see past your religious believes. Mind that the definition of faith is to believe in something that can not be proved, and the very essence of faith is shared similarly by fundamentalist Christians, Jews, Muslims or atheists. They all believe something that is not provable. I am not uncomfortable with the concept of God; I just think that more likely than God creating humans, humans created God to fulfill their own needs. But…who knows. I am really an agnostic.
Said that, when I talk about genetic predisposition and severe early child abuse, I am not talking about symptoms, but about etiology, the cause of the disease. If you want to go further then that, you end up in the research field of neuropsychology where they try to understand the basic mechanisms behind brain dysfunction . The symptoms are the lying, raging, condescendence et cetera. That is why I don’t think devils and evil have any place here. There are mental illnesses just the same way that there are other illnesses. I am sure you wouldn’t think somebody with diabetes has an evil nature, or like somebody stated, quite a few years ago, that AIDS was the rightful punishment for sinful gays.
NPD cannot be cured because the individuals affected are incapable of seeking treatment and incapable of self-analysis. Their very emotional survival lies on continuous lies that shore up a warped, shriveled, undeveloped child’s ego. There is no enemy to fight, unfortunately for us, just our sick parents that don’t love us, don’t care about our feeling, but are consumed with boosting their own image. NPD don’t need to be enabled, they are not able to be anything but NPD independently from our behavior or positions. More then fighting “evil” we need distancing. Emotionally for sure, or emotionally and physically. My personal belief is that we did not turn N (even though some of us may have some traits) because we had a “witness”, a person in our family or that we knew, that gave us a modicum of love and empathy. That was our lifeline.
Sorry for the length of the post!

ricochet echoes · member Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Europe

Hi Seachelle

I understand completely how you feel.

My NM has done all that also. What I find is that they are so infantile in their logic that often the things that they have done themselves pray on their minds and are turned around and pinned on another person. They are not capable of just keeping their mouths shut about it - they have to actually physically or verbally turn it around on someone else - usually their favourite victim whom they spend years trying to ruin reputation-wise.

It like the childish situation- : "did you do that bad thing?"and the child says "no! it was Ännie who did it, not me". Or they even make up the story first so they don't get as far as the point of being asked if they did ït or not in a one step further situation, they usually behave this way as adults when they are caught out behaving in a way that is not acceptable and they deflect the blame on to the person that they have spent years conditioning and ruining for just such a purpose. They also get a kick out of adding bits into it to make themselves a victim into the bargain.
You, as we all are, in varying degrees are their own personal scapegoats designed and conditioned to save their miserable skins.

I think that your NM has done something that you dont know yet 'what it is" - or has been caught out doing/saying something by someone or is planning to do something.... is my guess, which she has to deflect on to you either in advance or in hindsight and to back it up she is writing to your hubby.
Also there are many complex feelings mixed in with this like sick jealousy, not being able to bear the happiness or wellbeing of that person etc.. so they just have to try and mix up some trouble - its a compulsion that accompanies NPD as far as I have noted from my NM.

I have learned to think ahead of my NM (we really have to be 1 step ahead when dealing with them and be aware how theiir minds are ticking)and am able to catch her out as to that she has done something or said something most of the time, because I usually get that warning when she writes something similar to the email you got or makes a telephone call to my husband to tell him stuff about me and how she is a poor victim to something I have done.

Sympathy to you, the only thing that you can hang on to in these situations is that you know the truth, and the people who are worth knowing also know it Sad

RE