Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

snowynight · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject:

Hope, I couldn't have written that better. Good analysis. Yep, I think that believing that they loved only keeps us stuck in fantasyland and doesn't help us move on at all. If you can believe they loved and move on at the same time, go for it.

I still hold that if they really did love they are not N or CP, but rather something else, and that this board will not therefore match your experience. So Star, if you can relate to 99 things you read here, but hold on to one thing that keeps you believing he's not this, then I believe the real problem is denial to accept the truth. My 2 cents. I haven't read one behavior in your description of him that fits genuine adult mutual love, but again, it wasn't my experience, so who knows?

gunnie · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 180

I'm compelled to add my two cents.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I believe there are only two possible scenarios:

Star:

You are either disillusioned with regard to your belief in this so-called "real" love that you thought you experienced with him

OR

He is not an N

You have to remember that central to this disorder is a lack of empathy. Don't you make the connection that he is incapable of love as you and I know it to be? Please stop trying to convince yourself that it was there and that it was real. If that's the truth, then you're on the wrong board because if you truly shared a genuine love, then he's not an N.

If it's not true, then you have to accept the bitter reality. Stop disillusioning yourself.

Gunnie

snowynight · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject:

SassyAnnie13131 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 228 Location: Minnesota

I've been thinking a lot about this and perhaps there is one element we have not addressed. Perhaps someone who is emmeshed with an N has their definition of love altered to go along with their current experience?

When I was with Nxbf I recall thinking, "I've never experienced such bluntness (for example). I guess he loves me enough to tell me the truth." (Not knowing it was HIS skewed view of the 'truth' through an NPD and NS colored glasses.) Pre-N my definition of what love is would read one way. I know as the 4 years of hell progressed, my definition changed. I warped it to fit my circumstances because the alternative (that he could not and can not love, that I was being abused & that it was all a sham from Day 1) was too painful to acknowledge. It didn't help that Nxbf fed into that.

"Annie, I have the strength to be selfish when I need to. IF you love me THEN you would understand." (The If-Then Game). "Looking out for myself means I am looking out for us." Shocked

Yet, I fell for it. The alternative was too terrible to swallow. My brain or psyche or denial or whatever wouldn't allow me to own that he couldn't love me. His actions and word salads did not match. Ever.

There was also the one-upmanship. "Annie, I wouldn't have gotten you that nice Xmas present if I didn't love you." I would say, "N? A pack of rewritable CD's so that I could burn disks for YOU is not a nice present." He would respond, "Well, I thought we could pick out songs that mean a lot to us. Cuz....I love you." Can I puke now? Anytime I was upset and brought up things I had done for him, he would one-up me. "Well, remember that time when I......" It was almost competitive.

Anyway, I think that while we are in the N-fog two things happen. One, we have to bend and mold our definition of love to fit the situation we are in with N. Two, we do that because the alternative is too painful to acknowledge at the time.

I think most of us here have a "Oh hell no" moment. You know, when the thought of seeing him, hearing his voice or having the N touch you is so sickening and disturbing that we put our foot down and say, "Oh hell no. I won't tolerate one more second with that a-hole." A switch gets flipped. It could be over something mundane, or something huge. Regardless, we reach a moment when our emotional gas tank is empty and there simply is no freaking way we'll let him use word salad and manipulations to fill it up again. No more denial. No more rationalizations. In an instant we say, "Oh hell no....not one more time, not one more moment." Then we begin NC and while it's common to N-dip and waiver, more and more frequently we say, "Oh hell no, not again." It takes people different lengths of time to get to that point. Eventually? We all do. Because the alternative of being around him for 10 more seconds is worse than being alone. It's an evolution. One that CANNOT happen if we idealize, romanticize and deny.

disengaging · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 1341

Star,

I'm an auditor and my very favorite saying is, "Just because you say so doesn't make it true!" My second is, "Don't tell me, show me the paperwork!"

And the more people try to convince me of something on nothing more than their "say so", the more the convinced I become that they're hiding something--and I almost always eventually find out just what that is too!

The words mean absolutely nothing when they are being used for nothing more than their rhetorical value, as a tool for deception and manipulation. In auditing, the truth is in the documentation, and in relationships--the truth is in their actions, which always speak louder than words.

Star, you keep telling us what this guy SAYS to you, but his actions prove otherwise. I've heard plenty of women defend their alcoholic and abusive husbands and boyfriends actions too by trying to tell me how these guys SAY how much they love them too. I've heard women who were hospitalized with broken bones as a result of physical abuse tell me how very sorry their man TOLD them they were--and they believed them too!

But that's because, generally speaking, people tend to believe what they WANT to believe, and usually pretty good at rationalizing away any and all evidence that contradicts with this desire.

I feel you may be believing that this guy truely loves you because that's what you want to believe, and that's your perogative. I don't think it's true, and that you may be ignoring all evidence to the contrary, but again, it's your perogative to do so.

What I'm not understanding is why you seem to find it important to try to convince the rest of us here of this?

paperbagprincess · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 23

It has been my experience that when one is trying to convince others over and over they are really trying to convince themselves of something they inherently know to be wrong.

I'm with the post that states there are two choices
A: either he is not an N
B: Denial, denial, denial
pbp

BloomingintheSON · Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 345

[quote="Starsilver"]
But as time goes by I had a real problem. I'm thinking that perhaps my X is not an N after all. You see I know I was loved. He may have raged and abused me after we broke up and have some of the traits but I know how he was feeling and he felt love.

Oops. I think I did the quote wrong!

I am new to this board -- about a week. But, it was the OW thread that drew me in. Now, this one seems to be giving me the same insights.

I have read all of the postings -- including Sam's -- and all say the same. Ns are not capable of real love. I am still trying to get my head around this, too. I have just come out of my denial that I was held hostage to my Narcissistic/borderline/psyhopathic husband (who was NEVER a partner) of 46.5 years. (I escaped with just a suitcase and a laptop to save my life.) A man who SAID -- and sometimes acted like -- he loved me could try to kill me???? NO WAY!

It has taken FIVE years to reach the point that I KNOW he was incapable of love, real love, and it had nothing to do with me.

Skipping ahead -- This week I have been wondering if I had to keep holding onto the "reality" of his love in order to save my own sanity all those years (46.5) I'm not sure how to word this because the whole thought is so new -- but, I think I am coming to the conclusion that it was the deepest hook he had sunk into me to keep me as as his hostage. Four years ago, a counselor told me they thought I was a Stockholm victim. I read and read and read and denied it to myself over and over again. He LOVED me and surely knew I wouldn't leave him so why would he have to pretend to love me?

I have only had one appointment with the counselor--that I thought I wouldn't need again after 2 years of healing of the PTSD from the physical abuse -- so I don't know. BUT, this is CLEAR: HE DIDN"T EVER LOVE ME or he couldn't have mistreated me so badly through "loving" control and power over me. HE WAS INCAPABLE OF LOVING ME. I DELUDED MYSELF! I had allowed myself to be "chosen" by a very charming, intellgent man with a terribly disordered mind!

OK, why did I hang onto my delusin so long? It is painful to write it out but I'm going to -- for the very first time in my 70 years. I somehow thought that if he didn't love me there was something wrong with me -- that I wasn't loveable. (EVEN THOUGH, deep inside I knew this wasn't true.)

IT WASN'T ME. IT WAS HIM. Painful Prainful Painul to give up delusions.

Stars, you are still young. Whether yours is N or not, he has hurt you with showing you his dark side. He does not deserve you and your goodness.
_________________
"My intuition is God's gift to me. Using it is my gift to God."

snowynight · Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:07 am Post subject:

(((((Blooming))))),
You sound so much like my Mom. She is 77, married to my Dad for 53 years. She only began to see through his N behavior about 12 years ago. In the end she has decided to stay with him because "she knows how to handle him, she's too old, and it's just easier this way". She lays out all the medals he gets from his Senior Olympics BS. We're supposed to coo and caw about those and everything he does. Everything is still all about him even in retirement, where he could be choosing to contribute to the good of others instead. We're supposed to honor and admire him at every possible chance (there are 7 of us kids). But, if you were to ask my Dad who I am, what's going on in my life, what's important to me, who is my son, what's he all about, etc. , he'd have no clue. I remember once he said he was keeping a file on us and writing everything down because he couldn't keep it straight!!! His own children for God sakes!!! I remember the N in my life that I am here about today making similar innuendos - that if he didn't have something written down he couldn't remember exactly where he was at with someone. So strange. I so admire you for making the break, despite all your years together. What a strong woman you are. Anyway, it's never too late, as you clearly demonstrate!!!! Kudos to you!!! I only wish my Mom had the same strength. I offered to have her come live here with me as I have a spare room but she wanted nothing to do with it, and I am the youngest of us all. She would have gotten even better from the older ones!
Love,
Snowy

marie · Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Posts: 1

Narcissistic types are often not shown the kind of love that your average everyday loving, caring person would. Since they weren't able to make the same connections that inspire us to reach out and love more affectionately, they show for us they don't understand love, and really, the meaning of love is irrelevant if you and your partners idea of love way differ. Anyway, I don't think 2 incompatible people should be trying to manifest unhealthy relationship.

Most ppl with mental disorders have a skewed *idea* of love. I personally don't really believe in the word love itself, it really is all about what you put behind it. I have dated an "N" and he was extremely difficult to get on with but I find they're very clever manipulators, the best defense for them is a mirror. They become rather human at the sight of their own spitting image.

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1327 Location: Connecticut, USA

Blooming, I cried when I read your post. I feel the same. How could he not love me after 24 years? I'm good. I'm lovable. What have I done to be so unloved by him? What have I done to bring this all on? Is there something wrong with me? He certainly thinks so. If it weren't for my therapist consistently reinforcing that he has the issues, not me, I don't know if I'd be able to handle any of this at all.

SassyAnnie13131 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 228 Location: Minnesota

aphrodite* · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 300 Location: usa

Hi Blooming,

I was very moved by your story. You are a very brave, honest, and strong woman. I am sure it has not been easy to leave that relationship after all these years. Yes, some people are just truly incapable of love-a very hard and sad fact to confront. I understand how you got locked into this relationship. But now you are free. And if the Son in your nic is who I think it is, you are free indeed.

A fellow Son worshipper,

Aphro