Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Summer · member Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 923

This thread is for Molly, a new member, who is currently going through a horrible alienation process right now with her children.Molly has tenagers and she just filed for divorce from an N.

I was hoping any members could post suggestions or advice,share our own experiences,how we survived ,or even just support for Molly because we all know that our children being alienated from us by the N is a parent's worst nightmare.It's just another form of child abuse.

Molly~

My kids were 19, 16 and 13 when I filed for divorce from the N.I expereinced Alienation and I understand your pain.I understand the heartache.The N was alienating all 3 of my children against me, 2 years ago , almost immediately after I filed for divorce.Later I realized N had been doing this DURING the marraige also.This explains N was "setting" me up for a fall as I had tried to divorce him once before in the past, in 1999.I was always threatened by the n if I ever tried to divorce him again, he would get full custody of the kids.Now it all makes scense.

I had NO idea what Parental Alienation even was. But,I am here to tell you that I survived it, and although things are not perfect now, my children and I all have good relationships with each other and alot of times this process backfired on the N.I am not saying the N has stopped-in fact he is still alienating our youngest son, 15 who is the last pawn left for N in this custody battle.

One of my kids, my oldest son (16 then), 19 now,was not affected as badly as the other two.Things did not always go smoothly, though,-from the start,S-19 had opted to live with me 24/7, this made the N extremely angry and he went on a mission to tear S-19 away from me,-at one point N did bribe S-19 into movig back in with him, after numerous promises of material things and eventually the ultimate- a brand new truck for S-19! Within 2 months, my son was sorry he was living with the N, and now plans to attend college out of state to escape the N.In the begining S-19 never took sides, then eventally he saw right through the N and S-19 became very supportive of me.Yesterday on Mother's Day, he brought me a card and flowers and spent the evening with me.I am telling you this because at one point I felt he was on the verge of taking the N,s side and turning against me too.My S-19 and I have regular contact and see each other often, and every single time I speak with S-19, he tells me he loves me.Out of all my kids, my relationship with S-19 is the strongest.

The N also "used" my daughter when she was going through a rough time,(a long and complicated story), she was not involved in the custody battle because she was 19 when I filed, but this did not stop the N from taking her to the Kids Attorney and convincing her to tell the Kids Attorney horrible things about me that were not true-the N actually bribed her and gave her money and other gifts for this!It's a long story but the Kid's Attorney did not believe a word D-21 said and refused to see her again, since she was not a part of the custody battle.The Kid's Attorney said he found he N "disgusting" for the way he used his own daughter as a pawn.In all it took seveal sessions with the N and I seperately and with S-15 before the Kid's Attorney started catching the N is numerous LIES.N's story just wasn't adding up-plus the Kid's Attorney saw the extreme changes in S-15, changes for the worse, behavior wise.This past January, D-21 graduated college and was moving back home-she chose to move in with me full time while she works 2 jobs,and saves for her future.Because of this, N has kicked it up a notch in the alienation of her again, against me.But it doesn't seem to be working like it was in the past for N.D-21 and I are pretty close and yesterday she took e out for a Mother's Day Brunch.She tells me she loves me daily.

The N alienated my youngest son the worst.S-15 said some very hateful things to me,he completely sided with the N.One, of many examples of what S-15 has said to me is this, "I am going to tell the Judge I want to only live with Dad full time so he doesn't have to pay you anything because you do not deserve child support".
I thought I had lost S forever. S-15 was court ordered into counseling because the Kids Attorney recognized alienation was taking place.The N fought this tooth and nail and convinced S not to go-S made it to one session and then the counselor refused to see S anymore, stating S was 14 (at the time) and the counselor said he could not "force" S into attending counseling.
Apparently the Counselor did not do a thorough investigation, plus the N managed to get an appointment with the Counselor first and convince him of a bunch of LIES about me.

The N "won" this round. Then the Kids Attorney accused the N of alienation, telling N he as going to order a Parental Evalution from the courts and if N was found guilty he would lose custody completley..This is when the N "lightened" up a bit and stopped "most" of the alienation.

After that the N still alienated S-15, but ever so subtly, very stealthly, so it was hard to prove or pinpoint.,especially n a teenager who at that age is already going through the gammit with emotions night and day.It's still going on to this day.
By the way-my Mom was out here from another state, trying to help and support me during the divorce,actually moved in with me for several months, and N even alienated S-15 against his own Grandmother-I am telling you it was hell on earth.If my Mother wasn't here to experience it with her own two eyes-she would not have believed me.She was just as absolutely shocked and heartbroken as I was.My Mom even wrote a letter to the Kid's Attorney at how she was astounded at the severe change in her Grandson, and I cry to this day when I read it and how she expressed that t was like someone had stolen his soul..Before this, my Mom and my son had one of the closest and best relationships ever, and my son had written a beautiful heartfelt poem for her and had it framed, the very Christmas 2 months before the alienation started!

Somehow because the N was afraid of being exposed, my relationship with my S-15 was salvaged.It is good now but will never be the same as it used to be.The N has tainted the relationship and things will never be like it once was..Our relationship is a little shakey, S-15 doesn't express emotions well, and S idolizes the N because the N lets S do and hae anything he wants, he is being completely spoiled and has no rules or guidance from the N,,My son and I get along okay for now,and for the most part,he respects me again, but this is only because the Kids Attorney stepped in and called the N on the alienation.I still have hope and faith though.
This all went on for a period of about 8 months straight.I had no idea what was happening,I just continued to love my son unconditionally, I remained calm and did not react when my son said hateful things to me.Then I discovered what was going on, alienaton, and I read everything I could get my hands on about it so I could educate myself and learn to deal with it.
One of the best books I read was "Divorce Poison" by Dr. Richard Warschack.I highly recomend this book-you can get it on Amazon,slightly used, and really cheap.
The advice I can give you for now is to stay yourself and do not let your kids see you react to their "words/threats/accusations".I mean do not even cry or get upset or hysterical, because the N is telling them that you are crazy,emotional, and that you flip out and act like a phsyco person.

If you remain calm, and the kids keep seeing this consistently, they will see right through the N and realize the truth.
The kids eventually will get tired of the N devaluing you.No kids like to hear bad things about one of their parents. Ever.!This will come back to haunt the N later.Hopefully sooner than later.

All of this takes a tremendous amount of patience and strength.You can do this, as hard as it sounds, it is possible when you realize that this is just a stage, and you can look at it as an analogy compared to a drug addict under the influence-when people are under the influence they say and do things they do not mean.Think of this when the kids are mistreating you.
Your kids do not mean what they are doing, they do not intend to hurt you, the N is brainwashing them to turn against you, they are still innocent children, they still love you, and always will.

And like the N here, it sounds like your N is going to great lengths to totally alienate them right now, right at the time when you are leaving the N.This is the worst time.

Two things that are crucial and that is one-getting someone to be a voice for your children, a Guardian at Litem, or a Kid's Attorney to represent them and interview them "seperately" from the N. And the second thing is what you are doing now, trying to get Counseling.You are doing the best thing!

The N will fight both these things but you must persevere and never give up.
I promise you this will not go on forever, and things will get better.Many parents have survived this.I am here to tell you that I have and still am.We are all here for you, you are NOT alone and please never ever give up.Time is on your side.

Prayers to You!
Summer

mollydog · Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: Summer/Many Thanks

Summer-

Many thanks for taking the time to tell your story. Here is all of mine:

The N is the one that filed for divorce last May, (received the papers on our 16th wedding anniversary) such a N way. I knew many years ago the relationship was over, long over. We were just going through the motions, not fighting, just no communication. I could not please, I was being criticized, the house wasn't clean enough, everything was an issue. To avoid confrontation with the N, it was easier for me to just do everything. I wouldn't even ask the N to stop for a gallon of milk.

This is the N second marriage and had a s to the first wife. His s was 3 years old at the time when we married. The N fought for custody for his first s and we met a year after his divorce. His s and i got along extremely well. I realize now all the pieces of the puzzle has been in place. The N only used me to get back at his first wife. We took great vacations with his s, he was definitely the fun week-end N. We bought a beautiful 4 bedroom home and decided to start a family immediately. Had a d, now 16 and s, now 15. Two siblings for his s. Get the picture? Using me thinking his s will now want to come and live with us. Only he didn't. He wasn't going to leave his mom. Time to chew me up and spit me out, see ya later! And it was all downhill thereafter.

The N is a professional, well-educated man. The job market in our area began to suffer and the N lost many jobs due to downsizing. His title was stripped away, damaging his ego and we all know what an ego means to the N. He became unbearable with our children so I decided to take a leave of absence from my job for one year. I have been a flight attendant with a major airline for 20 years now, which made it all the easier for the N to alienate the children while I was away. I gradually started to realize what was happening and what the N was up to, wondering why the children were so against me especially when I came home from a four day trip. The N is very calculating. The N waited until he could fully turn my s and d against me by buying them materialistic items, ie a new car for our d etc. knowing that I could never keep up with the N financially. Well, it's working. Telling them lies, that I'm having an affair, when I find out he is the one having the affair. And the N loves playing games and push my buttons , he even tried to set me up to get me out of the residence. Yes, we are all still living in the same home because I refuse to give up my home, he is the one that filed!

My s and d are both verbally abusive towards me and highly disrespect me. I owe this all to the N over the years, it has just really come out in full force since they are now teenagers. Their grades are both horrific. My d quit dance, which she has done for years and my s no longer wants to play baseball. And the N is going to give my d a new car? What kind of parent are you? A N one, that's for sure.

My s and d did not call me for Mother's Day. Today, I rented a u-haul and moved out of the residence, taking only the bare essentials. They all knew is was coming, and my s repeatedly would ask "when are you going to move out already"? My attorney said all three of them are going to fall flat on their face, just back off and let them. Do you know how hard this is? I did not have milk in my house for two weeks. Guess the N was too busy being with his other then paying attention to his children. Doesn't surprise me. All for show, I know the pattern, you know, the church scene and the good father scene, all behind closed doors, but I know differently. I lived it. The N is so use to using people, he will stomp on anyone, even use his own children as pawns in the divorce.

I am now in the midst of a huge, I mean huge divorce/custody battle. My pastor told me years ago, just get on with your life and don't get caught up with attorneys and the courts. Don't play into the N hands because all he wants to do is fight, if you walk away you will give him exactly what he doesnt want. I could not walk away, what mother could walk away from her children ? I have fought only for counselling for the kids because I know how much it has helped me. I've been seeing a therapist for almost two years. Although, I've done just the opposite, and I didn't think it would ever get this far. I now have the local magistrate, school counsellors and the courts involved and possibly CYS. My s has so much anger towards me and I know this has been caused by the N.

I am forever grateful to all of you for your words of wisdom and encouragement. I have learned so much in such a short amount of time. Most importantly, document EVERYTHING! I went as far as purchasing a mp3 player and recorded how my children talk to me. BEST THING I ever did. The N has taught my s and d to lie like him, but I have the proof.

Please contact me with any advice you could possibly give. I am committed to getting help for my s and d and will do whatever it takes. The N has met his match, only I love my children for different reasons, healthy reasons and men like this should be put away. This is far worse than sexual or physical abuse and we must all stick together and stop these evil monsters. Question: Does anyone know what a N can be charged with through the courts for parent alienation, or is this just a slap on the wrist? If it is, this needs to change, anyone with me?

One day and prayer at a time. I will get through this.
This too shall pass.

Molly

Summer · member Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 923

deleted

1ablueprincess · member Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 195

I just want to thank you both for sharing your stories. I am going thru my own personal hell right now with a 15 year old s and his N father. I cant get into all the details, but reading your stories gives me encouragement.

Thank you
_________________
survivor

Stand4Change · member Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 67

Parental Alienation was used by N/X to get 50/50 custody. I was asking the court to continue primary custody and for child support (he wasn't paying and he was cruel about it).

The judge fell for the plan and called me over-concerned (and N atty put that in the order). This is classic PAS (not PA). I believe I have to find a way to get the Court to see this, but I have no $ for an attorney. I am told it will cost $60,000.

I can't express how much grief has been caused by the claim of PA (no time) but I can tell you that PA IS IN EFFECT in our lives. But what could be evidence that would hold up in court?

What really happened here is Parental Alienation Syndrome, a custody standard when our divorce began. They shifted gears and called it PA and it stuck even though it was b.s. My attorneys didn't protect my children (or me). Find out what PAS is before you try to claim PA, just a thought.

Call your local clerk's office and be friendly and ask the clerk outright. Maybe they can put you in touch with someone who can answer your question. Also try to get a free appt with a family law atty. Some charge, but the best ones will give you advice for free. Double-check what you hear.

Summer · member Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 923

One thing certain about Parental Alination and the reason it is so easy for an N to alienate and brainwash our children is because the child is put in a position of knowing that if they do not appease the N, there will be hell to pay.
The children are in fear of the N and know they are in a situation of "conditional" love with the N,and they are afaid they better do what the N says , or they will suffer the consequences, of punishment or rejection from the N.
Kinda sums up our relationships with the N too, huh?

My son was obviously frightened of the N.I watched S actually stutter when talking to the N on the phone when he had to tell the N he got in trouble at school once.It was pitiful.No child should be subjected to this.No child should have to live in fear, especially of their own parent.

Stand2Change~

I understand you say you can not afford an Attorney, really none of us can, Attorney's are highly expensive and most of us do not have the funds.
But on the other hand I have read many times that trying to represent yourself is a bad choice and you would be better off with any kind of legal help you can get.
Ther are a couple different choices;
1.The Woman's Shelter offers legal asisstance in case where ther is abuse.
2.Legal Aide-If you can prove you do not have the funds and need financial assistance.
3.Legal Help for Famlies through the Courts-This is a place at the courts where you can get advice and guidance free of charge.
4.Borrow the money from family, or if need be take out a loan.
5.Sometimes you can find an Attorney who will take your case Pro-bono.

This is important, especially when you are reprsenting yourself in a PAS case, it will be really difficult. I would not attempt to do this alone.The N,s are masters at disguise and turn the tables making us look like vindictive Mother's.

The only way to try and prove or get evidence is PAS/PA is to get credible witnesses who can testify in court,,a therapist and someone to represent the children,a GAL/Kids Attorney ASAP, immediately.
The therapist/GAL needs to interview and moniter the kids before the alienation gets any worse.They need to evaluate your kids and determine what their normal behavior usually is before alienation takes over and the kids are too brainwashed and have no voice.It is much harder to prove after the kids are too brainwashed and always siding with the N.

This is the only way I survived this-the N actually insisted in the begining to hire a Kids Attorney at the start of the custody battle.I am sure the N,s goal was that he was certain he could fool and convince this Kids Attorney that I was a bad mother and he should get full custody.
This eventually backfired on the N, so I am grateful N insisted that we hired the KA.

At first I was put on the defence, as N got in to see the Kids Attorney first and badmouthed me and made false accusations against me..
I then had to "prove" nothing the N said was true and I was a good Mother.
The Kids Attorney saw my son right when the alienation had started so he knew what my son was normally like in his usual behavior.
It was the fact that as time went on, and the alienation got worse, the Kids Attorney determined that N was alienating S.

It got really bad too-but it was all documented and the changes in my son were so severe, to the point where he even started turning against the KA,"not" liking the Kids Attorney anymore-the N had badmouthed the KA to S, calling the KA an idiot and stuff,because KA was taking up for me and agreeing that I was a good parent and none of the accusations N accused me of were true.

If it wasn;t for these early observations, and the fact we got my son interviewed in the begining, none of this would have been discovered.

Your kids need a voice, and they absolutely need a therapist/specialist who can investigate and interview everyone, seperately, and together,your child seperately, to see how they interact,then the child together with each parent to observe the behavior first hand.

N,s can not keep up the facade for long periods, and once there in as ongoing investigation, over time, the N will certainly slip up and his LIES will be exposed. Any negative behavior changes in your child will be regonized-especially if the child is turning cmpletely against one parent-it will be obvious alienation is occuring.

Good Luck to You,
Summer

truthshineson · member Joined: 08 May 2008 Posts: 4

For Molly and the rest of us.

What a terrible situation we are all in. Our stories are so similar that there must surely be a N guidebook that the Ns follow. My D is 13, my XN has primary residency of her for the past 1 1/2 years following his lies under oath. He is a police officer and the court believed him. I had no witnesses. He has continued to make false allegations almost on a weekly basis. It is exhausting. There is another forum on this website that gives really good advice for email communication with Ns. I highly recommend that if you don't have rules in place, take a look at these.

What is working for me? Firstly, my bond with D13 seems to be surviving, although there were a few months last year when the Ns alienation tactics seemed to be working and she was angry, defiant and hostile toward me and my family. She began calling her grandpa (her only living one) by his first name because the N hates him. She would not make eye contact with me or my husband. Finally we had a long talk and I told her, Honey I love you with all my heart and will always love you, no matter what. I know how hard this situation is for you and how caught in the middle you must feel. If you want me to stop trying (I always refrain from using the word "fight" with her) to make things better, I will and I promise to continue to love you. D looked at me and said please dont stop, I want to be with you. She has a better understanding now but is still helpless to stand up to the N, who has threatened her pet if she does not do what he wants. (we told her the pet could live with us if it came to that).

The next important piece is that witnesses are finally coming forward and are willing to testify. What a relief.

Document everything. I resisted getting a recording device for over a year. During that time the N made outrageous threats to me over the phone - I wish I had them on tape. But I have diary notes and I ask anyone who witnesses anything, to write it down. D made a beautiful little plaque for my parents signed it Love, **. It is evidence.

Try to get as much rest as possible. Research as much as you can on PTSD, since most of us have been traumatized by our N's abuse. Strive for as much balance as possible. Be gentle with yourself. Make yourself feel gratitude every day. It feels impossible at first but over time it gets easier until it doesn't seem so forced. I take vitamins and melatonin to help me get better sleep. It doesn't keep the nightmares away but I do get more rest than when I don't.

Be as analytical as possible with respect to your court case. I do most of my own research and digging. You will probably run into alot of dead ends. At times it feels like Alice in Wonderland. Lean on others who have gone through this, and never lose HOPE.

Hugs