Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Makeshift · Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 1

I really appreciate this forum. I see the experiences of others with narcissists, and some of them sound just like my mom's experience with her N sister (NS, or my narcissistic aunt--NA). My aunt began to exhibit N traits around the time when she got married for the 2nd time, and had a child, about 18 years ago. Shortly after she was married her mother-in-law died. She got involved with estate matters, and she began to show these traits. Before getting married she had isolated herself, but she was not deceitful that anyone could tell, nor hostile. She came to visit with her mother and father occasionally, but she never wrote and never called. Sometimes we'd meet her when I and/or my mother would come out to visit. She seemed pleasant enough.

When my NA's mother-in-law's estate was being settled, she began to lie about other family members, but as far as my mother was concerned, she was not hostile. Then an incident happened a little more than 10 years ago that showed my aunt's dark side. It was kind of an emotional time because my grandmother had just had hip surgery, and was recovering. My aunt blew up at my mother over a minor control issue. My mom was so blown away by the experience she vowed to have NC with her sister until she apologized. She had no idea what NPD was, and she had no idea what brought on the attack. She said it felt like a "psychic attack". It left her jangled, horrified, and bewildered for days.

Here's the setup. My NA had moved out to a town near where her mother and father lived, years ago, after she got married, to help take care of their medical needs. She's lived there with her husband and child ever since. There are two other relatives in this story: another sister, who lives in another state, and a brother with Down Syndrome (DS) who has lived in the same city as his mother and father for many years. My mother did not marry. I grew up in a single parent household. She and I have lived near each other in another state for many years. She is still unmarried.

My grandmother died about a month ago. My grandfather died 5 years before. On the day of her death (a Thursday) my mother contacted her NS for the first time since the aforementioned incident. I was also on the call. My mother explained her concern for her brother, that his mother's death will be traumatic for him. My mother and I had discussed a plan years ago that we would drive out to be with her brother during this trying time, so that we could be with him for an extended period (we would have my mother's car). She anticipated that we would need to stay for a few months at least. Her brother is now in a nursing home in the same city. My mom explained the plan to her NS. Her sister complained that this would create a situation where she could not predict when we would be out there for the funeral, which she wanted to have sometime the following week. She acted exasperated. She complained that my mother made travel plans without consulting with her (gee, I wonder why...). She yelled, "I don't know *anyone* who couldn't be at their mother's funeral in 3 days!" Despite her insensitivity, my mom expressed her thanks for the amount of time she put into caring for their mom and dad. I think she had wanted to say that for years. She also gave her condolensces.

My mom explained that we could be out there within a predictable time range, and she acknowledged it conflicted with when she wanted to hold the funeral. It created a scheduling conflict for when my cousin (the NS's daughter) could attend it that week. My mom tried to negotiate with her, asking if the funeral could be delayed so that everyone could attend. The NS would have none of it. She insisted that we be out there for the funeral, when she scheduled it, and that we fly out. She insisted she would not have the funeral without us. She belittled my mother for the idea of driving out. She chided, "Your brother won't need your help," for the time period my mom was talking about (how would she know? I get to this later). My mom told her about four times we were not going to fly out. Finally the NS hung up on her. My mom once again vowed to have NC with her. I couldn't blame her. The tone of my NA in the conversation was like that of a boss chewing out an underling at work. No tears. No sadness for the loss. No sympathy for the grieving of her two sisters. And this was on the same day her mother died. Unbelievable! I had already read about some of the characteristics of a narcissist. For the first time I began to get the idea that my aunt was one.

Another wrinkle was that when my grandmother's health took a turn for the worse, and was dying, the other sister and her husband went away on a weekend trip to a remote area around the same time. She was totally out of phone contact, and she did not know that her mother's health had taken a steep downturn. During their trip she had a fall and suffered a minor concussion. She almost went to the hospital (IMO she should've gone. A concussion is nothing to take lightly). She also injured her back. The NS had been desperately trying to contact her, because of their mother's failing health. That's all I know. She got no response because they had no idea she was trying to contact them. After a few days of this, in exasperation, feeling slighted I assume, she left a message on the sister's answering machine yelling, "I'm just not going to call you again until your mother dies!" My grandmother died four days later.

Despite her wildly insensitive behavior, the other sister contacted the NS on the day of their mother's death, and they talked about funeral plans. The NS laid out how it was going to be. The funeral was going to be in the middle of the following week, because that would work best for her daughter who had finals coming up. Period. The other sister tried to explain that this would be difficult, because they would have to inform all of their clients that they wouldn't be available (her and her husband run their own small business), and she wasn't sure if her injuries would make the trip impossible in the near term. She had pain sitting up for more than a few hours. The NS was not sympathetic. The other sister complied with her wishes, despite having to turn her life upside down to do it. My mother refused. It turned her life upside down nevertheless, but she did it on her own terms. We went with our original plan, and drove out. We missed the funeral.

I tell this story to give you an idea of the dynamic going on in the family. I'm now going to back up some.

Several months before my grandmother died, the brother with DS was moved from his group home, where he had been living for about 25 years, to a nursing home, because he was supposedly showing signs of Alzheimer's Disease. That's a whole 'nother ball of wax, which I won't go into. A few years before then my grandmother decided to make my NA the brother's co-guardian since she was the only relative local to the area. Since the brother had been moved to the nursing home, my NA has not visited him once.

My mother and I visited with the nursing home staff when we got to our destination. They told us it was news to them the brother had a sister living nearby. The NA planned to finally come visit and tell her brother about his mother's death the weekend after the funeral (she and the other sister deemed him unfit to attend it), but got a stomach ache (Was it real? Who knows) and asked the other sister visiting from out of state to do it. She did. To date she has not engaged in her official role as his guardian.

My mother has tried to use the other sister as a "message carrier" to her NS, to try to get her engaged in at least visiting her brother. The other sister was unsympathetic, saying, "Why don't you two talk this out?" Oh if only it were that easy! She thinks this whole thing between my mom and my NA is just sibling rivalry. There is an element of that, but as far as I'm concerned it's all on my NA's side. My mom held nothing against her until she started acting weird. I suspect the other sister doesn't particularly like interacting with the NS, but she has been able to do so on at least polite terms for the most part. For whatever reason the other sister feels it necessary to be on good terms with the NS. I suspect her and her husband see her wild behavior as cries for help. They both believe in spiritual healing, and so their hearts go out to those who show signs of needing help. What they haven't considered is they're pouring their energies into a bottomless pit.

The thing that's tempting about this situation is that the other sister and her husband are aware that the NS has some personality problems, but they see them as managable. I remember my mother and I had a conversation with them about this a couple years ago and they said, "She feels like she needs to have control over certain things. If you just don't get in her way, you're fine." Well, it's not that simple. She got irate at my mother for not complying with her funeral schedule. There's no way to avoid her dark side if the thing she wants to control is you. Another defense they made for her is that her daughter became deathly ill earlier this year. My NA was worried sick about her. Her daughter managed to recover in late spring, pass her tests in high school and graduate, despite being "out of commission" for more than a month. She also went through some surgery a few weeks later. I do imagine that was hard. It would've been hard on anybody. My mom knows a friend whose daughter almost died from drinking too much. Her sister died right around the same time. She was an emotional basket case, but she didn't react the way my NA has. Despite the fact that the other sister and her husband have this notion of themselves as being enlightened, I'm sad to say they sound like they're in denial, and are being snowed by the NS.

One of my worries is that one of these days the NS, using whatever accusations she can make up, will try to block access to the brother as a way of getting at my mom. So far this hasn't happened, thankfully. It seems as though she's almost totally ignoring him. We just got word recently that she's called the nursing home a couple times, but hasn't come to visit. I have no doubt she would use him as a pawn if she thought it would be to her advantage. My mom has discussed this issue with some of her friends. A couple have speculated that she may want to relinquish her role as guardian if my mom wanted to take it on, though my mother hasn't come to that bridge yet.

Through all this an eery thing dawned on me. I realized how my NA perceived her world. In the first "blow up" incident with my mom, my grandfather explained that my NA always thought my mom got more attention from him and my grandmother than she did. My mom had told me years earlier that my NA complained that her daughter was not receiving the same kind of attention from her grandparents as I got from them when I was young. She explained to me a long time ago that her family was dysfunctional and emotionally abusive. My mom explained to me recently that when my NA was a young girl she became a "wallflower" during family conflicts. She didn't get involved.

What I realized is after she got married, had a child, and went through all the machinations that resulted from her mother-in-law's death, she decided that her world was her, and her daughter, and maybe my grandfather. That's it. She also desired control over her parents, at least as much as she could get away with. Everyone else was a mere object for her to control. At least that was the way she perceived it. She doesn't have the time or energy to control everything in reality. Plus, since she tends to be introverted, she only tries to control the objects of her interest.

She was devoted to taking care of her father until his death. She spent some time taking care of her mother when her health began to fail, but eventually poured her life into her work and had almost no time to visit her. This began to happen a few years ago. She became very involved again when her mother went into the final stages of heart failure in the hospital. She would spend hours at her bedside every day. My grandmother's helpers commented that when she came into the picture, she tried to take as much control of the situation as she could. A couple of her helpers commented that she would "blow up" at them without provocation. This even rankled her mother, because at times my NA countermanded her own health care decisions (she had power of attorney--POA).

Another N trait is her immature personality. She acts like a teenager, yet she's in her 50s. She really couldn't handle her mother's death. When her mother tried to talk about the inevitable with her, she refused to talk about it. My mom and the other sister were understandably troubled about the inevitable, but they were able to talk about it, even with their mother. Shortly before her death, my grandmother was unable to speak. She was disabled to the point that my NA's POA took effect in making health care decisions. My grandmother's helpers said that she had a terrible time making these sorts of decisions. She didn't have the maturity to handle it.

She has a sense of her own grandiosity. She considers herself the best daughter in the family, the most industrious, noble, and dignified. An image she constructed for herself. In years past both her mother and father showered praise on her. She set herself up as "the good daughter".

My NA's relationship with her daughter is interesting to me, because it seems she dotes on her. I heard from my grandmother and two of my grandmother's helpers that her daughter sweared at her to her face, and didn't seem to do anything about it. My grandmother told my NA "You shouldn't let her talk back to you like that." Apparently she ignored the advice. Where do you think her daughter learned this behavior? Even her mother's funeral arrangements were tailored around her daughter's schedule.

It seems to me that contrary to the perception of others, Ns are not monolithic. They have their behavior traits, but they don't seem to apply to everyone. They do care for certain people, but it seems they care to the exclusion of anyone else. I think what my NA wants more than anything is for her daughter to be the center of attention, giving her what she didn't have growing up.

What worries me some is what's to become of my uncle? He was always a dependent, but now he's moreso than ever. My mother and I are here for him now, but what about the future? I really don't know.

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 359 Location: Minnesota

sounds really complicated. thanks for sharing.

since I have worked with disabled adults for most of my adulthood, have an Nsis who is more like an aunt or mother than a sister (she is 16 yrs older), since my mother was the "maker" of the golden child, since my mother and her sisters were very much like what you describe, and since my much loved now ex husband developed dementia and I had to petition the court to have him moved to a group home, I have a few ideas.

your story sounds alot like my family was---no boundaries, no open communication. my mother and her sisters were very similar in their interactions.

i am probably missing alot of facts (i have PSTD) but it sounded like your uncle with Downs/dementia is some distance away.

what if you asked the N aunt if she would have any objection to you volunteering to be the guardian and even if she does have objections, could you petition the court why you think it should be changed? even if the county court- with your and others input--appointed a guardian other than you (there are people they work with who are trusted members of the community that do this for a living), could the county arrange with your county to have your uncle be moved closer to you? there may be facilities close to you that you do not know about. I would suggest calling your state or county agency for vulnerable adults or the county appointed social worker for him in the county he is in. in almost every state he would have a social worker even if the aunt is the guardian, unless he is wealthy and self paying at that nursing home. they are VERY familiar with family dilemmas like this and are trained to deal with them.

it seems quite obvious that you make a better fit to be the guardian due to your age and your interest in his well being, and although a change would be difficult initially for him, most folks with developmental disabilities with or without dementia adjust pretty well after a couple of months in the new facility (as long as its a good fit).

Another alternative would be for you or the county social worker to get a court appointed guardian and have him stay where he is--you or they can petition for a change at any time with just cause--but that wouldnt solve the problem of no one coming to visit him--because most guardians have a number of cases and dont get to see them often.

If you are worried that you or others would receive "backlash" from the N aunt on either of the above, you could always solicit the help of the nursing home social worker. there is no doubt in my mind that the staff there see what is going on, and actually the nursing home staff are legally mandated to report it to the county or state if your Aunt is neglecting him-even if she makes sure he is provided for--she is neglecting his emotional needs. They have to do this even if he is "self paying."

HUGS to you in your search for answers. Please take care of yourself and dont take on this issue unless you are up to it. And for SURE please dont allow yourself to feel guilty if you decide not to do ANYTHING. We relatives with the Ncrap in our families writing in here often take on too much responsibility because we were trained and it is often part of the culture of the family to have one or two people who take care of everyone elses needs but no one supports THEM. I will be thinking of you.
let us know how it goes...............
oaktree
_________________
Once You Have Been Bitten By A Snake, You Are Very Cautious, Even Of A Coiled Rope.

The Dalai Lama

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 359 Location: Minnesota

any news here, Makeshift? how is it going?
_________________
Once You Have Been Bitten By A Snake, You Are Very Cautious, Even Of A Coiled Rope.

The Dalai Lama