Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

mollydog · Joined: 08 May 2008 Posts: 59 Location: Pennsylvania

I'm 50 years old, married for 17 years, two teenage children been in therapy for over a year and just heard of the term narcissist. That is my H. I have struggled to please, care for, change myself, avoid conflict, but to no avail he has not had respect for me for years and presently he has turned my daughter and son totally against me. They too, disrespect and verbally abuse me. They have decided to live with their father because he has now made promises of materialistc possessions ie. new car for the 16 year old d etc. I have fought since the very beginning for court ordered counselling for the children. NH verbablly threatened the first counsellor (female) which resulted in not being able to represent the children. My attorney suggested, at this time, to back off because at this age, the children's decision weighs heavily with the judge on who they would like to live with. My question is How can you prove a N in court regarding custody issues and getting help for my children. I, along with my therapist know, this is not a healthy envirnoment for them to be in.

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 905

Molly,

Welcome to the Forum.
Your story sounds so familiar, like a shortened version of mine and others I have read that posted on the Forum.
N also refused court orders for my kid's counseling.
Having a Kids Attorney helped protect my S-15,somewhat, and the N was accused of alienation, and when N was called on it, the alienation for the most part stopped-which was lucky because it was caught early before my relationship with my son was completely destroyed...but this still did not cause any change in custody, we share joint legal custody.
All I can think of to tell you is to remain true to yourself and be as calm and loving to the kids as you can while you remain as total NC as you can with the N.
Do not accept any verbal abuse or disrepect from the kids, even if the N taught them this,you are already teaching them its wrong by divorcing the N, one step at a time!!

The more you are away form the N, and the more you are in NC, the better your relationship will improve with the kids as they will see you as a stronger person/mother who made the right choices to get away from the abuse.All this takes time and patience but its on your side.

Even if you prove the N is an N, it will not affect any custody decisions and your attorney is right that the kids after they reach a certain age (13) have some clout in the courts decisions.
Keep loving your kids unconditionally, as teenagers they are already struggling enough but have to figure out and decide on their own about the N, but they will surely see you changing for the better and that you are a survivor.
You made the right decision in divorcing an N and its a long healing process but your kids will see your progress and start respecting you.

Stay strong and keep coming here, you will have alot of good advice and support!

Summer

mollydog · Joined: 08 May 2008 Posts: 59 Location: Pennsylvania

Summer-

Thank you for your words of encouragement. Parent alienation has been in play for many years prior to the N completely destroying my relationship with both S and D. It is just very difficult to see the healing in all this madness. Now that I understand that knowledge is power in this destructive disorder, this, in my opinion is far worse than physical abuse and the N should be held accountable. Where is the justice in our court system? and why is this acceptable? Why can't I get help for MY children whom I so desperately love?

Molly

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 905

Molly,

I understand your frustration and I agree about Parental Alienation.It's just another form of child abuse and it is something hard to prove in court and totally unfair when the N,s get away with it.

The N here was turning my kids away from me before I filed for divorce too, but it got even worse after I filed and he started alienating them ten-fold.
What helped me was,surprizingly, the N himself-when in the begining of the custody battle he insisted on hiring a kids attorney to represent my youngest son.
As time went on, my son was being alienated worse, and the Kids Attorney recognized this right away-the Kids Attorney saw the negative changes in my son,he confronted the N and threatened we would do a Parental Investigation,telling N he would be found guilty and probably lose custody, this scared the N and N and his lawyer fought it and the N pretty much backed off of the alienation, but it was still the worst part of this whole nightmare-watching the N abuse our own child like this.Luckily though my relationship with my son was salvaged, because it was caught early, but I will say because of the N and the alienation, it will never be the same as it was in the begining.

In the mean time I read everything I could about Alienation, there is a great book for reference, which might help you,"Divorce Poison" by Dr. Richard Warschack.

I remained very calm and when my son acted up, I kept composed, loving him unconditionally, continued to instill discipline and rules and expectations of respect during the times he talked back to me.The N was constantly telling S-15 that I was crazy, hysterical, screamed,yelled and flipped out all the time..In reality, I was doing none of this and it took time but my S-15 saw the truth and relaized the N was LYING and badmouthing me.

Always remember you are the normal parent, and will not ever have manipulate,"buy" them ,or lie to them like the N always will.Kids want discipline, unconditional love, understanding, truth, honesty and consistency in their lives,and we are the parents who can give them this.

Alienation is hard to prove in court but there are several things you can do;

1. Hire Representation for your Kids to protect them, for teenagers this would mean a Kids Attorney instead of a GAL.
2.Insist on counseling for the kids,and have your attorney ask the courts Judge to court order counseling .N will refuse but then he will be in violation of a court order.
3.Remain yourself, do not react when the kids act up,this takes alot of patience but belive me it will pay off.Kids learn what they live.
4.Remain as NC with the N as you possibly can, I suggest email communication only so it is documented in writing and keep it about the kids only.
5.Never badmouth the N to the kids or enmesh them in the litigation, the N is already doing this and the kids will tire of it.When the kids realize this, they will become angry at the N,if not now-in the near future when they are more mature.
6.Document everything that is relevant, regarding the N and things he is saying/doing with the kids that shows a pattern of alienation.Witnessess are great.
7.Although it is hard to prove in the courts, you still should point out what is going on and how this is the same as child abuse and how it is affecting the welfare of the kids negatively.
8.Keep updated at the kids school and school counselors-I went to them and explained the situation, and asked them to look out for any behavior or any other problems so it could be documented and used to show that the kids are being affected badly.Alot of times when kids are being alienated-the first place the problems show up are bad behavior at school, or grades slipping, etc.
9.Seek one on one counseling for yourself to cope and learn so you can be the best Mother possible during these trying times.

All of this can be used in the courts later to show how concerned you are about the kids welfare and how the custody/divorce/ alienation is a problem and YOU are trying to help the kids, looking out for their best interests, versus the N who will continue to LIE and act as if nothing is wrong.

There are just some thoughts, there really are no real answers, it is a mother's worst nightmare for sure going through this and watching helplessly but you will learn to cope and realize that at the age the kids are, they can not be controlled, and you have to have hope and faith and know that this will eventually backfire on the N.I have already seen this happen with my oldest son.

This will be the hardest time because the N is on a smear campaign and badmouthing you and the N has no consideration to the kids-alienating them.
Kids are smarter than we think and most of the time they figure out the truth, N's can not keep up the facade forever, and the kids will recognize this, hopefully sooner than later.
Just be there for them as much as you can emotionally because the N never will be.
You can do this and we are all here to support you!
I wish I had the solution, but please remember you are not in this alone.Never give up.Hugs.

Summer

mollydog · Joined: 08 May 2008 Posts: 59 Location: Pennsylvania

Summer-

What an emotional rollercoaster! Just removed all of my personal possessions from the residence yesterday and the u-haul will complete the rest on Monday. I haven't talked to the kids at all and I won't be holding my breath for Mother's Day either. I guess I shouldn't be surprised given the circumstances, I just wonder how they will feel sitting in church with their father tomorrow when the sermon is about Mothers.

Parent alienation has been so severe in this case. The N has done everything you are no suppose to do for children. The N brought them to the very first hearing, took them out of school while their grades are suffering and then also brought them to an exclusive possession hearing. So many adult issues have been discussed to them regarding our finances, counselling and divorce and I've also been accused of having an affair by the N and this has also been discussed to my S and D. Fortunately, I have an excellent attorney who will not tolerate the N behavior. I can guarantee that when I am on the road to healing, I will inform and educate every woman I come in contact with about this distructive disorder.

On a postive note, I wish you and every mother a blessed and joyous Mother's Day.

Molly

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 905

((((Molly)))),

Thank You.Awwww.You brought back memories and this makes me want to cry reading your pain.I am so so sorry, I hear you loud and clear though-all of it sounds VERY familiar, this is similar to what was happening to me and my kids almost exactly,in the begining when I first filed 2 1/2 years ago.
There IS hope, ther IS a light~

From experience, I can tell you, you WILL survive this, and come out much stronger,this WILL backfire on the N ,the kids will SEE the truth,and things WILL get better for you and the kids,they did for me, not completely but -I will write more later when I have time and so I don't put a damper on the up-coming holiday,(the first Mother's Day after I filed, the N kept my youngest son from me in violation of the court order and I never got to see him at all)-tomorrow I am spending the day with all three of my kids (I didn't think this was possible 2 years ago the alienation was so horrible)--trying to give you hope and strength to realize that things WILL change,,and want you to know you are in my prayers and thoughts and I am wishing you;

Happy Mother's Day!

And Happy Mother's Day to all the Mothers on the Forum!

Hugs,
Summer

mollydog · Joined: 08 May 2008 Posts: 59 Location: Pennsylvania

Summer-

Read all of your past messages and can't believe how similar our cases are. It is so sad to hear that there are other men out there like this. Therapy has helped me throughout this trama in my life, but my heart breaks for my children. They are ONLY children who deserve a happy childhood, I want to say to the N, "do what you want to me, but leave the children alone". I know now, that if I discussed with the N how much this hurts me, he will do it all the more. So sad. This N will stomp on his own children and use them as pawns if it destroys me all the more.

I often wonder what goes through a N mind daily. Everything he does is so calculating and downright evil. My pastor advised me years ago to just "get on with your life", you cannot win the fight against a N and to not get caught up in the court system. Well, it has turned into just the opposite. The local magistrate, counsellors at school and the courts are now a part of this. Although, the N must have put on an academy award performance for the evaluator which was appointed through the courts because he recommended the children stay with the N. How could this be? They are professionals who are supposed to be able to radar in on a person like this. Where were the red flags? Not to mention, the expense an evaluator charges. I ripped apart this evaluation and questioned the evaluator's reasoning behind this, it was NOT presented to the judge. Yeepie, one win for the normal parent!!!!!!! Finally.

I will take this journey, one day and step at a time and always know, I am doing what is best for my children. My therapist advice, "stay true to yourself because the truth will always be revealed".

I am grateful for your support.

Molly

mollydog · Joined: 08 May 2008 Posts: 59 Location: Pennsylvania

Summer-

Forgot to mention, I ordered the book you recommended, "Divorce Poision". I'm committed to learning as much as I can about N and their evil ways. If anyone can recommend any books that may be helpful on N, please advise. Thanks.

Molly

dianeusa · Joined: 13 May 2008 Posts: 2

Yes Mollydog, its me dianeusa, hey you should find out if summer lives somewhere where you fly to and meet her or at least talk with her at some point in time. It does seem as though she knows your pain exactly. Misery loves company and it sounds as though you have alot here. I am glad we found this site and hope it helps you in the days, weeks ahead. You atre a strong woman and I know you and your children will pull through this somehow some way. Never give up on them, they need you more than ever, even though they do not realize it. Have a good trip. Hugs to ya! Smile

Stand4Change · Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 67

Molly,
Something you said triggered a question for me.

Could you give more info on how you questioned the custody evaluation report and it was not sent in to the judge?

Mine was court-ordered, and it overturned completely the previously done home study. My atty said our only remedy was to have teh court assigna reviwer which wcost 6000 and then get a new evaluation done costing about 20,000 together. That was a bombshell I was not prepared for and the report was presented and upheld. The custody was split 50/50 to "prevent parental alienation".

there are some stupid things in my ce and the evaluator kept talkinga bout how her husband was a worse narcissist than mine, then she claimed the N did not show up on the test results so she did not put her concerns in the report. it was a setup. I'd like to tell the judge this becuase it's a new judge, but i've been told it would look like sour grapes and make me look vindictive or like a victim/manipulative.