Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

tattooedscarlett · Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Posts: 30

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thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 488

I mentioned it in your other post, but that initial relief from the revelation that there is a reason behind the predicament was my first taste of liberation. Once you've pried open the door a fraction you've entered a new plane of existence. At the time I mistakenly believed that it would all end now that I was aware of the reality behind my conditioning. This proved false and a number of years later I'm still accumulating water in the pot (one drop at a time) as I work through the related issues. But my advice is knowledge is power: the more you know the looser the chains become; so read the literature, become familiar with the phenomenon of toxicity and begin to understand the world.

Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

The good news is that the ball is always in your court: if you look for it you'll find it.

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

I agree, there is an initial sense of relief in understanding how the N mind works. There is also a lift of all the sense of guilt that weigh us down when we come to realize that we are not the cause or even contributed to cause all of our family's pain and contorted mechanics. My problem is that I have internalized a lot of the negative perception my N parent dished out to me for years, especially formative years. I still have trouble with this, as explaining rationally to myself that negative thoughts and insecurity are based on false premises, does not remove them from whatever recess of my mind where they still live and seems to control a lot of my emotional life.

baby_kay · Joined: 05 Mar 2008 Posts: 172

I felt, the moment I discovered all the information, literature, and research that I did on Narc. behavior and the condition that NM has, I actually felt liberated. I felt like for once, in my life, there was something concrete, and then I found this forum. Both very close together, and all of a sudden, there was someone else out there in this world that actually "got my pain". I was not alone any more. I no longer had to know all that was going on, was not some figment of my imagination, even though I knew it, rationally. Does that make sense???? Then, I did not have to experience the "pain" that for me was the feeling that I was somehow "marked" by a parent whose behavior my whole life, was so off. The more support and stories I read, and share here, the better I feel. I know the pain of wanting your parent to be "NORMAL", but if god brought you to it, he'll bring you through it. I am the realist, and nothing she did and said, made me believe that there was something deperatly wrong with me. I always knew even as a little girl, she was not right. There was something really wrong with her. The condition, its name, did not matter, I thought??? BUt it does matter...........it explained so much. And the enlightened awareness, has been good. The pain, no never goes away of all the bad memories, and others stories, of same, and like. But.....we are not alone. We are not bad, wrong, etc. We are!!!!! Humans, children of this.......This is part of our journey and all it is suppose to be. We are to learn, and realize what a gift it is to be good. Because the N's can't and won't ever be this, good. So, on that note, just thought I would share.
Peace

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Baby-Kay, you just got me to think about...how I always thought that the more severe the N traits the more damage to the children, but you got a point , if I understood you right: your mother's behavior was "off" enough that you knew there was something wrong with her all along. I knew we had a bad relationship, but I was told "my bad character" was at the root of our problems. I thought she was wrong, but did not realize her pathology until I was an adult. Maybe she wasn't as blatantly crazy, and she's pretty smart...So I never bought that I had a bad character or that I was mediocre, rationally, but my subconscious absorbed it, because every time I have success, or I have a professional improvement, I also have a sense of discomfort, just like I was a impostor, and I manage to change/remove myself from that position. I feel like I'm fulfilling my N mother proposition to be in the "right" position of mediocrity she wanted to see me in.

baby_kay · Joined: 05 Mar 2008 Posts: 172

And.........that is exactly the N's motive and plan. To make us think there is something very wrong with us. Challenge this, and look at the whole picture truthfully. If this is always the case, why then can we have good positive relationships with outside people. But....the trouble with this when the child reaches adulthood, is...that the N is not the primary relationship anymore, and so with being the case, we can experience a more well rounded life. I know my N, thinks the worst of me, but really deep down, she is drawn to me, and my goodness. It is when they take your good stuff, it is feeding their N supply, because they have issues of not feeling good enough, but they protray it as their are everything, and we are nothing. In retrospect, we are something, their supply. So.....as a child I just had a very strong sense of self, because the NM was so over the top, with all of her behavior all the time. I would say she could be normal sometimes, but the whole world was always wrong, and she was ever so the victim. BUt not in a sappy way, she would then have to get "EVEN" with someone. My mom is a maliscious N. She wil do every thing in her power, to make someone pay. She judge and jurry, and excecutioner. She is all, she is like god, she even thinks god, only listens to her and her side of things. SHe is so important. SHe is a dillusional slut, mean, selfish, unfair, phyco bitch, and she should have never gotten married, or had kids. She is emotionally unavailable to anyone, and everyone should be available to her. I should consider her feelings always first. Mine don't matter. See......this is my experience, and if you got to look at this relationship fairly, you could see some sinilarities.
Just my two cents.
Kim

thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 488

"My problem is that I have internalized a lot of the negative perception my N parent dished out to me for years, especially formative years. I still have trouble with this, as explaining rationally to myself that negative thoughts and insecurity are based on false premises, does not remove them from whatever recess of my mind where they still live and seems to control a lot of my emotional life."

This is the fallacy of the ego I was referring to in Zander's post. The mistaken belief that we are who we think we are. All this bullshit: negative self-talk, distorted perceptions and self-hatred is conditioned. It aint true except in our conditioned minds. And what is true in our minds directly affects our behaviour, so if the mind is impure then our actions will reflect this. So breaking the grip of the ego, our conditioned false selves is key to the flowering soul. Breaking the grip of the ego is difficult, the most useful advice I can give is to observe the mind. Everytime you recognise the ego at work, you are loosening the chains, you are beginning to transcend the conditioned self. This process of liberating the soul, dissolving the ego is one of attrition. It takes time. In my case, and probably most of us here, a torturous one. But you just stick at it. There isn't much else you can do.

"The pain, no never goes away of all the bad memories, and others stories, of same, and like. But.....we are not alone. We are not bad, wrong, etc. We are!!!!! Humans, children of this.......This is part of our journey and all it is suppose to be. We are to learn, and realize what a gift it is to be good."

I don't know if the pain ever completely goes but it certainly loses its bigness as you gain your independence and create a future for yourself. I have difficulty loving the goodness in the world, it is one of my great problems. Negativity and cynicism are so ingrained in my psyche, it has been such a massive force in my life, relationships etc that I still feel like the "good" people are "them." I'm addicted to "sharing a cigarette with negativity" to quote Chris Cornell from the 90s. Rolling Eyes

tattooedscarlett · Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Posts: 30

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zanderman1 · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 391

I find it very useful, when I catch my ego "at it again", to write it down, and if convenient, share it with someone who is inclined to "get" it. The process of putting it into words and coherent sentences, and then reading it back to myself, kind of burns it into my brain so I REMEMBER and see the process really clearly. Then the process gets easier with practice. The magic happens when you shine the light of consciousness into the dark places, the dark stuf just disappears in a puff!

Of course, simple and easy are 2 different things . . . Cool

I catch myself THINKING I'm stupid, incompetent, careless, irresponsible, disorganized, etc., and I watch how it happens, how it makes me feel, and the more attention I pay to it the more it loses its power over me, and the less compelled I am to act out those stupid, etc. stories I habitually tell myself.

Don't believe everything you think!

baby_kay · Joined: 05 Mar 2008 Posts: 172

I agree,
I do this one, I tell myself, in like an affirmation, or mantra, I say "I am not....my problems, my family, my history, my pain, my house, my bankaccount, (or lack there of) my anything.....I am me. Just me. It is becoming aware of all of this in my own time, and catching myself, in my self-destructive thoughts. I have a problem, with always feeling like (when something goes bad in my life) like I am in trouble. NM always liked the blame the whole world for her troubles, and including her kids. My sister and I. I am aware, that when this happens, thats how I feel immediatly. Whether I had anything to do with it or not. Its like a default setting inside of my head. Its automatic reaction. I am aware of this now, and now I let myself feel it, and then rationally deal with whatever is going on. But no matter how much work, I do, both emotionally and spirtuatlly it comes up first. The other thing I notice, is the physical effects. Since I was a kid, the stomach drop feeling, and like I am gonna literally crap myself, sucken stomach feeling. And sometimes, like a wave of fear comes over me, and through me. Like because when I was little living with the NM you never knew when and were she was gonna come undone, and over what. Like living on egg shells, because I was always the target, even if it had nothing to do with me. But she always made me the target of her aggressions, when she was under stress, or something wasn't going good for her. SHe was a single mother and so she was very easily bothered, which I understood, because she was scared a lot of the time, trying and struggling to make all ends meet. Like we all do, single or otherwise, in our lives with our children. I had so much empathy for her, even when she would turn on me. I lost that empathy thing, around 7 years ago, when she turned that wrath on me and my family for the LAST TIME. So....I think its fair, to say, that we all have some defense mechanisms, in place to cope. The bad talk, happens, and we have to know better in our hearts, that we can not possilbly be responsible for everything.
Peace

thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 488

"breaking the grip of the ego,
our conditioned false selves
is key
to the flowering soul.

y e s !"

Is this approach resonates with you there is a wealth of wisdom out there on the subject. Eckhart Tolle deals directly with these ideas in straightfoward, to-the-point language in his books "The Power of Now", "Stillness Speaks" and "A New Earth." If "new-age" aint your biscuit, the great prophets said as much and more. There is a wealth of information out there. Many people miss the point when it comes to religion (the actions of many "pious" followers blatantly contradict the teachings of the prophets) but if you can pick the truths from the untruths there is a wealth of timeless wisdom contained in all the great religions. To reiterate: Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

"I find it very useful, when I catch my ego "at it again", to write it down, and if convenient, share it with someone who is inclined to "get" it. The process of putting it into words and coherent sentences, and then reading it back to myself, kind of burns it into my brain so I REMEMBER and see the process really clearly. Then the process gets easier with practice. The magic happens when you shine the light of consciousness into the dark places, the dark stuf just disappears in a puff!"

The process gets easier with practice - this is true. It is worth bearing in mind that the further you get the easier it becomes. And at an accelerating rate. So the hard work always pays dividends. Perhaps not immediately, but the seeds you sow today and nurture tomorrow will blossom in due time. This principle of karma is fundamental to the Buddhist doctrines and is true. It is also dogma that light eliminates dark, consciousness eliminates unconsciousness.

"I catch myself THINKING I'm stupid, incompetent, careless, irresponsible, disorganized, etc., and I watch how it happens, how it makes me feel, and the more attention I pay to it the more it loses its power over me, and the less compelled I am to act out those stupid, etc. stories I habitually tell myself."

Your actions reflect your state of mind. So if you think it, you become it. Breaking these habitual patterns is key and man is it hard work! But it is do-able and realistic, just not easy. A further complication is other people confirming your dysfunction, avoid these people if possible.

"I do this one, I tell myself, in like an affirmation, or mantra, I say "I am not....my problems, my family, my history, my pain, my house, my bankaccount, (or lack there of) my anything.....I am me. Just me."

Exactly, externalise what isn't you. Separate it. Create distance, perspective, space between you and "the world" by refusing to identify with transient, temporary phenomena. Meditation is the practice of rejecting the transient, temporary by taking refuge in the eternal peace of thought-free pure awareness. Mantra's are an excellent way to begin to break the strangle-hold of conditioned thought. Another practice is to concentrate on your breathing. If you are concentrating on your breathing where are you? Answer: here and now! (not in a reverie).

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

"I find it very useful, when I catch my ego "at it again", to write it down, and if convenient, share it with someone who is inclined to "get" it. The process of putting it into words and coherent sentences, and then reading it back to myself, kind of burns it into my brain so I REMEMBER and see the process really clearly. Then the process gets easier with practice. The magic happens when you shine the light of consciousness into the dark places, the dark stuf just disappears in a puff!"

It sounds down the same path of cognitive therapy. I have a cognitive therapy manual that directs you to identify "automatic thoughts" that are usually negative and are precursors of negative emotions (sadness, anxiety, et cetera). After you identify the automatic thoughts you write them down and then you have substitute them with a different but as, or more, believable interpretation that are positive. So you are retraining your brain circuits. It takes a long time but it's worth it, it took even longer for the N to program our brains with negative perception of ourselves!

thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 488

"It sounds down the same path of cognitive therapy. I have a cognitive therapy manual that directs you to identify "automatic thoughts" that are usually negative and are precursors of negative emotions (sadness, anxiety, et cetera). After you identify the automatic thoughts you write them down and then you have substitute them with a different but as, or more, believable interpretation that are positive. So you are retraining your brain circuits. It takes a long time but it's worth it, it took even longer for the N to program our brains with negative perception of ourselves!"

According to this website: http://www.floridainstitute.com/Resources/glossary1.html#c1 cognition is "the conscious process of the mind by which one becomes aware of thoughts and perceptions, including all aspects of perceiving, thinking, and remembering."

But why replace a thought with a thought? Why not dissolve thought by observing it? I believe this is a less clumsy method than "retraining" the brain because be it a negative thought or a positive thought it is still a reverie. The point is to awaken from the dream (or nightmare).

Whatever works, go with it but I believe the easiest way to break the conditioned mind is simply to observe it. Identifying the thoughts is the objective, becoming aware of the ego at work and then putting it in its rightful place: a black hole. Like all pests, extermination is an ongoing and lengthy process and frustrating most of the time. But are you going to tolerate cockroaches in your bed? Hell no.

But I reiterate, do whatever works for you and if talking positively about yourself is helpful do that. Reassuring yourself, communicating with the lost child within, these are worthwhile practices too.

A final point. The goal is to be content. To be content in sadness and to be content in happiness. This is surrender to the moment, this is peace. I don't have it, but I believe this is the goal.

Serenity710 · Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 84

Being able to observe one's thoughts so that we can see that our thoughts are not us is very helpful. It is calming because we are also practicing detatchment -- not to be so caught up, or enmeshed with negative thoughts. This is a similar exercise as practicing detatchment around negative people. We disengage from their babble -- just as we disengage from the negative "chatter" within by observing it as a thought, or as chatter. We step back. It is calming.

It's also a laudable goal to be content in the moment with where we are at -- with sadness, or whatever we are feeling. That is the hard part -- not wanting to "fix" our negative feelings. Being able to sit with them. I am very sad right now about some professional-career dissapointments and humiliation. It's hard being in the thick of the sadness. But it is there -- no denying it.

Thanks for the reminders to detatch and be in the moment -- to stand firm whatever that moment is.

Serenity

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

I think very few people reach a Buddha like enlightenment. Even when you can eliminate thoughts during meditation, you have still a mind that thinks and interprets situations, conversations, events during the rest of the time. As good as it probably is to just "be", most of us will continue to have thoughts. The question is what kind of thoughts...substituting a negative and distorted interpretation of events that places us as the cause of the negative event itself, or uses the event as a confirmation of negative traits we have, with one more realistic and plausible that actually uses a rational interpretations of facts that allows us to perceive ourselves positively (or at least neutrally). Phew..long sentence, I hope I was not confusing. Anyway, I am not saying this method is better then the one you are talking about, I just can wrap my head around this one better!