Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

You may know the answer to my question, maybe some of you are better versed in psychology then me, but I often wonder if my mother has a full blown NPD or if she just has very strong personality traits without qualifying as a personality disorder. Where do you draw the line? Her selfcenteredness, lyes, irrationality, and psychological abuse, overvaluing/undervaluing family members and others things fit, but she was also able to achieve academically, hold a professional job for years, help her children economically...those traits don't seem to fit in. Can you help me figure this out? I am also not sure if it would make any major difference for me if she is the one or the other! Thanks...

Tearlet · Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Posts: 29

louxloux · Joined: 20 Jul 2007 Posts: 1523

Hi Limited,

I can certainly understand your desire to know for sure the difference, but none of us here are qualified to make a diagnosis. Even if there are some psych's here with diagnostic privileges, you cannot make a diagnosis by pure story relating by a second party. It would require a Psych. spending time with the person in question... and even then, people with high degrees of N traits are pretty good a deception. Even trained Psych's miss the diagnosis a good part of the time.

Irregardless of whether or not your person has NPD or just a high degree of traits; their behavior is still very disturbing and at times catastrophic. The diagnosis is really irrelevant in that regard - you still treat those people in the very same way - instituting healthy boundaries. Sometimes minimal boundaries are needed (avoiding certain situations or topics with that person); sometimes moderate (telling them that if they act 'this' way; or bring up certain topics you will leave); to more intense boundaries such as No Contact whatsoever. In short, taking a firm stand NOT to allow them to abuse you physically, mentally, emotionally or spiritually. Unfortunately, you are the only one who can decide what degree to implement... and it's directly correlated to how much havoc and pain they inflict in your life; daily living and decision making.

Welcome to the board.

loux
_________________
Beautiful light is born of darkness, so the faith that springs from conflict is the strongest and the best. Light is the symbol of truth. Give light, & the darkness will disappear of itself.

~ This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine...

louxloux · Joined: 20 Jul 2007 Posts: 1523

p.s. economic assistance is often a form of control. Does not necessarily rule out NPD. Only if done with NOT wanting some form of credit for it is 'money giving' truly altruistic. If they use it as a means of having you do something for them later (i.e. "after all I do for you, you could at the very least do this")... then it is a manipulation tool - nothing more; nothing less.
_________________
Beautiful light is born of darkness, so the faith that springs from conflict is the strongest and the best. Light is the symbol of truth. Give light, & the darkness will disappear of itself.

~ This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine...

louxloux · Joined: 20 Jul 2007 Posts: 1523

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Hi Tearlet,
Thank you for answering. I think my mother has close to ZERO empathy, but she knows how to fake sensitivity and caring, mostly to look good. What I think is making it a bit confusing to me is that, (hard to believe!) my mother had a much worse mother than she turned out to be herself. Her mother, that I remember as an iceberg cold witch, managed to place her with a "wet nurse" at birth 'til she was past a year old. Then she give her no love or much material help, but did not miss a chance to tell her she would not amount to anything. All of that while showering my NM's younger sister with attention/"love". When my mother married,moved to a city 2 hrs away and had her first son, my grandmother visited ONCE (in 30 years) and within hrs she told that she was missing her younger daughter (which was living in her same town!) and left. My mother made sure not to repeat the practical, material neglect that she received, but never analyzed/understood the emotional abuse mechanism and she created her own brand. Sorry I'm so verbose...hard to explain a situation that went on for decades! Few examples: she either asks what you would like for a gift or not, but always buy only what she wants. When I was a child -->to teen she criticized harshly and despised her SIL and then told me I was just like SIL many, many times. If you tell her not to say something that you find hurtful you can be guaranteed that she will repeat the same words any chance she gets. As a child I was made to feel mediocre, while my older brother was of "superior" intelligence and that, as I recall, was already going on when I was in 1st or 2nd grade! When I was supposed to continue my studies she told my father that I wasn't material for high school (not mandatory in Europe at the time, "mediocre" people went to trade/tech schools). She told me it was my fault my father divorced her and in another occasion that she wished I was never born. Subsequently she denied ever saying either. Now, I was a very ANGRY rebellious teen, but...I was reacting to the situation and it is no excuse for her...Enough!

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Hello louxloux
I realize that none of you can give me a diagnosis over the internet, psychologist or not. I was more looking for individual opinion based on your personal experience/readings, a bit like what came up discussing that inflated balloon of Trump!
I was in therapy and I did limited conversation topics and also contact, since I' m in the US since 1981, but It's impossible to neutralize them completely, they are too toxic!! My brother has a lot of my mother traits and being a successful professionally brought out the worse in him.
Now taking my mother to a shrink would be exceedingly interesting, but she would NEVER go! Been there, suggested forcefully that, and she was offended.
By the way my mother seems to think highly of herself, but in rare moments of confusion/embarrassment you could see that she really does not like/love herself and feels deeply insecure.

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

There are always string attached when she gives money, but more in the realm of reminding you how generous she is, a times how ungrateful I am and telling me how to spend it, i.e. for the education of the grandchildren, so it's bad, but not to bad I guess...
Thanks for all of your answers!

louxloux · Joined: 20 Jul 2007 Posts: 1523

thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 488

I agree with Loux's analysis: that Donald Trump is an icon of idiotic rapacity and fits snugly into the mould of the delusional Hero. Entertaining as one of the many great advocates of stupidity but devoid of commonsense. He'd be good in a circus actually, a bit of light entertainment for the easily amused and a target for peanut-throwing children. Not all entrepreneur's follow the Trump path of the indulgent, tantrum throwing child with chocolate stains around the mouth, blindly craving another new toy, however. Richard Branson and "Google" to name two that I've been impressed with. There seems to be a "greater-good" ethos and evidence of moral enteprise in these two examples. Trump on the other hand is talking-meat.

As for diagnosing NPD, I disagree with Loux: I think it is possible to make an unofficial diagnosis yourself. An accurate one. Where do you draw the line between traits and a PD? Well, I think there is an intuitive dimension that tells you if someone is exhibiting traits or if someone is a basket-case. Someone who appears N'sistic and who isn't will have at least a limited capacity to empathise, you can at least converse in a limited way. N's are 100% delusional, there is no empathy there, you might as well converse with your dinner. I guess the more you understand the phenomenon, the more you learn, the clearer the picture gets. The fact that you are here, pondering it, suggests to me that chances are that she is.

"Her selfcenteredness, lyes, irrationality, and psychological abuse, overvaluing/undervaluing family members and others things fit, but she was also able to achieve academically, hold a professional job for years, help her children economically...those traits don't seem to fit in."

Intelligence and ability to maintain a facade has nothing to with it. There is what you are and then there is who you are, you have to seperate the two before you can make a diagnosis.

louxloux · Joined: 20 Jul 2007 Posts: 1523

Hi Thay,

I actually agree with you. I think it is possible to diagnose on your own - my Mom in particular, I have delineated as NOT having full blown NPD, but rather a high degree of traits - mostly b/c she does, from time to time, help other people out anonymously - with no expectation or desire for credit.

However, having self diagnosis or a professional diagnosis doesn't change the current state of things or how THEY relate to others - which was my point. The focus is still on them and not on 'how do I help repair me so that I can live a happy, healthy/less anxious, productive life AND have/maintain healthy relationships with others'.

Perhaps it may be helpful to some - but for me, having an official or unofficial diagnosis wouldn't really accomplish much, if anything. It doesn't so much matter whether they are truly NPD or just have high traits of N'sm - because either/or is so damaging and toxic.

To begin healing, we must implement boundaries, take care of ourselves and work on the breaking down the collective damaging effects of their abuse. It is a process - one that doesn't so much focus on them, their needs/wants, their diagnosis, etc... but rather focuses on our needs/wants, and what we need to do to repair and/or minimize the effects so that they don't spill over into other relationships... or even lay groundwork for selecting unhealthy mates (breaking the pattern of abuse).

Sorry for the confusion.

loux
_________________
Beautiful light is born of darkness, so the faith that springs from conflict is the strongest and the best. Light is the symbol of truth. Give light, & the darkness will disappear of itself.

~ This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine...

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Mmm...I don't know where to start!
Tearlet, sorry I did not answer your question. No, I think my mother would react differently, but not necessarily because she is more capable of empathy. I think she would feel compelled to act as the caring mother to keep up her image and also the loss of her son would mean to her a big loss in the NS department. After that there would be drama, in which she would be the main tragic, sorrowful victim. That would attract a lot of attention and pity, that she likes.
For the NPD vs traits only: I agree with you loux, I don't think it would make any difference for me or for reconditioning my brain away from all the negative projection I incorporated. I was more curious about the degree of severity. I spent years oscillating between anger and guilt (more anger though)and the best thing of therapy and waking up to reality was that my guilt dissipated completely and my anger is greatly diminished. So...when I not seething after one of my NM lovely remarks I can actually feel sorry for her as I at least have seen the light aand she is groping in the dark and, really, not happy. I know I have to think of myself and that she can't be fixed, but she did go through more abuse than I did and she is a bit of a pathetic, sad figure now...

windinthetrees · Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 128

"It is more than just a bit ironic, that in order to heal and recover from N abuse - you have to become more like them; more selfish and more concerned with your own needs.... something which we were groomed NOT to do, and feels as if it goes against our very nature. "

so true!

Tearlet · Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Posts: 29

Limited,

It does sound you've suffered a great deal from your mother's behavior. You do understand how it is to be treated as an object rather than a human being. You do know what it is like to be a tool and not a child. Regardless of dx, which I simply cannot understand how a person can ever be dx'd, you suffer what we all have here. (How can you ever get a N in to be evaluated ... seems like an oxymoron to me!)

Aknowledgement and then education are good first steps in your own recovery.

Peace be with you.

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Thank you to all.
This forum is a wonderful sounding board! I think one of my worse deficiencies growing up was a severe lack of validation. Either I was told that my thoughts or feeling were not true/wrong, my feelings were ridiculed or minimized with the excuse of "helping me out" or they just didn't hear me -as in walking away while you are speaking! As an adult I should not need so much validation now, but I believe it very helpful to me. Hearing your voices does confirm that I'm just not imagining things. Even when my rational mind KNOWS I'm right I often have a subconscious part of me that says..what if their (NM e N brother) version of reality is the true one?