Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

iwillsurvive · Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

I apologize for the cross-post, but I put this in the general discussion when really I should have put it here...

I realized my soon to be x is an N after I left. We start our custody battle officially in the courts soon. Not too long after he left I signed an informal agreement with him (NOT a court order) giving him visitation with our 20-month old daughter 12 days out of every 28. I reaaaaaally reaaaaally didn't want to do it, but his manipulation and his strong willed attorney pressured me in to it.

So while I'm going in to this battle with *some* things in my favor, I have the whole "status-quo" thing very much against me. He's had this generous visitation schedule with her for almost two months now. I've hated to let her go every time but I'm afraid of the court citing me with keeping her away from him. And hes not going to stand for me not going along with that agreement. Its been affecting our daughter negatively. She's been lashing out, crying, just not acting herself lately. She had always been so sweet and easygoing. But he wants to hear none of my concerns about her.

So I'm very nervous to go to court. He's already making things up about me and bending the truth to fit his agenda. And I don't think any of this custody battle is about loving her. Its about getting back at me. When he doesn't have her, he never asks how she's doing. I'm afraid his strong personality is going to prevail in the courtroom over my generally quiet and easy going nature.

I just don't know how to bring up or get them to believe this NPD thing. He isn't diagnosed but I can't believe how much the symptoms of this disorder match him. I cried so hard the first time I read about it and realized finally this thing has a name. And the more and more I read, the more and more I'm convinced. I am just at a loss as to what to do.

I'm so afraid the court is just going to look at this as a simple case and say "maintain status quo" and he'll get all that visitiation and my daughter will be negatively affected by it. I did everything for her up until now. Nurtured her, loved her, fed her, clothed her. And I think even at her young age, she knows it. So its difficult for her to now have this drastic amount of time away from me.

I'm just scared to death. Anyone who's been through this - please help!

Thanks,
iwillsurvive

livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 965

iwillsurvive,

I think Alamobelle has already given you a great response on the NPD board, but here is what I could add:

-If you haven't already, go to the learning/resources forums and read all you can on the Divorce/custody links.

-Does your family law court have alternative dispute options -such as mediation or case management? If so, ask your attorney if this is an option for you--and try to find a mediator or case manager with a therapy background, someone who understands personality disorders. Avoid attorneys in this role, because it's hard to beat an N in a "legal battle," but easier to get them to show their true colors when being scrutinized by a therapist.

-Don't say he has NPD, just provide the information to the court that allows the court to reasonably draw the conclusion that it's NPD.

-As far as how your child is affected, you need to get this documented by third parties, neutral third parties if at possible. Document, document, document.

-Make sure your attorney is experienced in high-conflict custody disputes. If you know other individuals in your area who have experienced a high-conflict dispute, ask them who they would recommend (or who they would not recommend).

-If you aren't already, I would get into therapy, but don't share this with the N unless you need to...

-Can you get your child into therapy? What does your attorney think about asking for this through the court? If your child is negatively affected by the visits, she needs to be in therapy. But tell the therapist you are concerned and give her the specific reasons why you are concerned, but DON'T tell her that the ExN is NPD, just the specific observations you are concerned about. Let the therapist make that diagnosis his/herself. Okay, I just reread your post and your d is too young for therapy, sorry.

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1371 Location: Connecticut, USA

LeaveLone can probably give you the best advice, as she recently won her custody battle.

Step outside the custody issue and take a look at your daughter. You say she's been lashing out and crying, just not being herself? Is she already in therapy? Any child going through a divorce, even a normal one, should be in therapy. All that lashing out may simply be the result of the separation. It's always hard on kids. Or it may be something worse, but it will take a professional to reveal the true issues here.

I took my kids' therapist's advice and agreed to full shared custody. In my case, severing N's parental rights was not an option that would best serve my sons, ages 12 and 14. The children would be pawns in the divorce, wielded like weapons by the N. Where I live, it is very difficult to sever a parent's rights, and the long, drawn-out court battle would do more damage to the kids, and would feed the N. Agreeing to shared custody removed them from the battle.

The theory is that once they are removed from the chess board, and he learns that shared custody will not save him from paying child support, he will lose interest and decrease his visitation voluntarily. Also, the kids love him and don't understand any of this NPD stuff, it's just Dad. Nor is it advisable to try to explain it to them. Having their father forcibly severed would do more damage at this point than what the N may inflict during his parenting time.

My kids are being closely monitored by their therapist. Also, I meet with her regularly to report any issues or behavior problems I see as they come up.

In this case, there was no overt child abuse. If your N has abused your daughter, that is an entirely different story. Otherwise, I would let the girl's therapist determine if there is anything inappropriate going on. Don't let your anger and resentment cloud your judgement of what is best for your daughter. A good therapist can teach her skills to deal with the backlash from her father's disorder.

It seems that what worked best for LeaveLone in gaining sole custody was the threat of a full psychiatric evaluation. It is the one thing Ns fear most - exposure. If you are determined to win sole custody, it is probably the only way to go. From what I understand, it's costly, and you would probably have to agree to be subjected to the same battery of tests as the N.

But get that poor kid into therapy right away. Remember, it's not about winning, it's about her.

LeaveLone · Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 100

Oh, been there, done that...LIVED in the shirt!

Mine weren't that young, and I had the advantage of plucking them away FULLY before we went to battle. I had to battle to keep them away from my X.

Here's what I would suggest: 1) no, she's not necessarily too young for a counselor. I would get a referral to one and ASK the therapist for a consultation. Explain your concerns and observations to him/her. They may give you some terrific advice. If counseling is in order, insist that the costs be shared 50/50 between you and your ex -- in SEPARATE accounts so that you don't become liable for the amount he doesn't pay if he falls behind or reneges.

2) Your child is much too young to be able to speak for herself so one thing you can do is ask for a Guardian ad Litem to be appointed in your case. The Guardian's job is to speak for the child and operate in the best interests of the child.

3) You say you suspect your soon-to-be ex is NPD. What makes you say that? If you have evidence or observations of things that look threatening or potentially dangerous, you might be able to convince the court that your ex undergo a psych eval and use that eval as a basis to determine visitation/custody. Be prepared that you may be ordered to go, too, as an "equity" position. It's NOT cheap -- can be thousands of dollars. But, if you truly suspect he's N, it may be your best insurance policy.

4) Has he ever threatened/frightened you or or your daughter? Or anyone else? My experience has been that ANY incidents or threats of Domestic Violence can have a MAJOR impact on custody/visitiation. Check with your local courts if you think this may apply to you, because there are differing definitions of "Domestic Violence" from state to state. Most courts have a DV Advocate that can help you go through the process and it doesn't necessarily require an attorney -- the advocates help A LOT.

5) Finally, start keeping a detailed log -- track visits, your daughter's behaviors, what occurred, when, anything said/done...this may be very helpful, not only for now to get clarity on what's happening with your daughter, but may be admitted into evidence if you are showing that you are keeping careful records of events, especially when any "incidents" occur. Keep ANYTHING he gives you in writing, no matter how "meaningless" it seems now. Our N's tend to provide us with a ton of information and documentation on their crazy behavior that comes in handy down the road.

This is only the tip of the iceberg but remember that EVERYTHING and ANYTHING is valuable and important when you are trying to keep your daughter safe and sane.

Good luck and write with any specific questions/concerns that I may not have answered in this quick "primer."

LL

iwillsurvive · Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 6

My dilema with the therapy is that no therapist I've called so far will see her without both parents signatures. We don't have a court order yet, so its assumed we have joint custody and we will likely get joint legal. So I'm in a catch 22 because he doesn't really want her to go to therapy. I have to wait until it is court ordered.

I asked my lawyer yesterday about how we deal with the potential personality disorder. I would like for the court to order an independant evaluation. I would submit to it, no problem. But my lawyer said right now is not the right time.

What I'm learning most from this situation is that its really coming down to patience. Thinking that this should be solved and solved right now, just isn't going to happen, unfortunatley. We have our first hearing (a scheduling hearing I believe) on 9/4. So I just have to hold out til then maybe to see how it goes.

Thanks for your replies!

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1371 Location: Connecticut, USA

Sorry, I somehow missed the part about your daughter being only 20 months old. My kids are a lot older, and are able to recognize and verbalize their feelings. I don't know how much it would benefit a child so young.

I've actually had my sons in therapy long before the divorce started. My youngest was diagnosed ADD at age 6, and I immediately found a mental health professional to help him, with a referral from the school. They are hard to get here, with long waiting lists. If I had wanted him to see a neurologist, the wait would have been close to 2 years. There is a serious mental health care crisis in the US, a topic for another day.

I put both kids into therapy so I would have someone to help them if the need arose, especially with the teen years fast approaching. This was before NPD reared it's ugly head in our lives. Now, I'm so very glad I did.

I never had any problems with needing both parents' signatures, although I did recently have the therapist get verbal permission from the N to continue seeing our kids past the divorce.

I would trust the lawyer to determine when the time is right for the psych evaluations. He's done this before. Mine held onto proof of physical abuse until it was the right time to play that card. It appears that she did so brilliantly, and so far (fingers crossed, knock on wood), the settlement appears to be equitable, and even in my favor. I know I have the psych eval in my arsenal too, and will only play it when and if the need arises.

And yes, it will take lots of patience. The more you both agree to, the faster it will all go, and the less it will cost. Sometimes you have to weigh out what you want vs. how soon you want it, and what you are willing to compromise on.

I have to keep reminding myself that it's not about winning. Your marriage is over. You're part is done. Now, it's about your child. You need to determine what is best for her, and be sure that the settlement is in her best interest in every way. It's the only thing that matters.

livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 965

iwillsurvive,

I agree with your attorney about the psych evaluation. I wanted one right out of the gate with the ExN -- yet asking for one can make you look like a malicious mother if you don't have a strong, credible reason for asking for one.

We weren't really sure when to ask for one in my case. I have a legal assistant degree and I knew that courts will deny the request if they feel the request is unsubstantiated. What ended up happening in my case is that we were assigned to case management. The case manager was a therapist. She asked the ExN to complete a parent/child evaluation with psychological testing. He agreed to it verbally, then never went. She recommended the evaluation to the court, and again, he agreed to do it. He started the process, wouldn't go finish and wouldn't pay the evaluator. We finally took him back to court to finish up, and although the Judge felt sorry for ExN and ordered me to pay for a third of it, it was well worth it. My understanding is that the game playing and stall tactics are the norm for Narcissists. I didn't have to have my own evaluation, but would have done it if they asked.

Another thing, if you do get the evaluation at some point -- make sure that the person doing the evaluation is known for giving accurate evaluations. Narcissists can fool some therapists -- my case manager would only send the ExN to someone she knew would give her an accurate evaluation. I still have yet to see the evaluation as ExN refuses to let me see it, but his parenting time is suspended now for non-compliance anyway. I have been told the evaluation is dead-on accurate.

Good luck, you have done your homework well and seem well-informed.