Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 339 Location: Minnesota

my therapist suggested I ask friends if they would be on my list of people I could contact if I was having a panic attack/flashbacks from PTSD. I hesitated for 3 months but then got up the guts to ask. I just asked if people could just talk about themselves and the present if I indicated I was having an attack, as that helps ground me in the present and reminds me I am safe. Its one of many tools I have to help me calm down. (By the way, EMDR is great-but thats another post).

Well two friends said yes, but the person I consider my best friend (we have known each other 27 years) said no. she said she would be afraid she would say the wrong thing and that I should contact my therapist or other professional if I was having a panic attack. I explained that this was not a psychotic episode or anything, and that the attacks only last for 10 minutes or so, and if I called my therapist and left a message, by the time he would call back it would be over. I explained that it could be a month before I would ever need to call her, my friend, as I am not having them as much anymore.

Well she still said no and along with that, said she was busy for 3 weeks and we should "go for a walk then." This is from a person who I know like my own sister. We used to spend tons and tons of time together doing different things until my spouse had a brain tumor, we moved away, and I ended up in a burnout caregiving role for 14 years. I moved back 5 years ago and she is still treating me at arms length. I have tried everything I can think of to rekindle our friendship-inviting her to things with me and my other friends, asking her out to lunch on days off, or a movie, etc etc. She frequently says no and its almost always no unless it has been organized weeks in advance. I asked if I had done something wrong or offended her or anything and she said no, it was her. Then I asked if I could just call her spontaneously sometime as we now live closer, and she says she NEVER has spontaneous phone calls and that her life is very structured, and that that is why we have to schedule our time together 3-4 weeks in advance and by email only. I know her entire family and get along well with her spouse and children. I gently questioned if she has been distancing herself from me and if we could talk about it. She then went off the deep end, refusing to email me and discuss it.

What could be going on? I am getting freaked out. I feel like she thinks I am too needy or something but wont say it. I WAS needy for about 3 months during my divorce 2 years ago, but that is one of only two times I have ever really leaned on her in 27 years. Call me--paranoid!!!!!!!!! What do you think?

thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 453

Maybe she feels uncomfortable with that level of honesty or intimacy?

artichokeheart · Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject:

I don't know her.. but maybe it is just like she said, that it is about her and not you. I wouldn't take it personally until you know for sure. If you did something wrong then she needs to talk to you about it, if she doesn't then it is really her loss. I hate to say that because I know how painful losing a friend is, but what choice do you have here? You're not a mind reader, she has to talk to you if she's upset with you or you can't fix it.

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 339 Location: Minnesota

thanks for your insights. if anyone else has any observations on this they would like to share I would be most grateful, as I have known her for so many years and dont want to lose her friendship - I dont have alot of friends, because I was trapped in this horrible situation with my brain injured spouse and had to care for him constantly.

I now called (against her wishes) and left a message that I think this was a big misunderstanding and that I apologized if I have done anything to upset her, etc. and I hoped we could talk in the next few days. But the truth is, doing that that feels alot like the "I am always the one at fault" role I took on with my Nsis for so many years (due to her brainwashing) so I am not really comfortable with what I said on the voice mail either. I have really had enough of being the person who apologizes for anything and everything in every relationship.

I think part of it was that I am feeling so isolated because of No Contact with my Nsis and her family, and I kind of got a little paranoid that my friend was also "abandoning" me. But I also think part of it is because my situation with Nsis and the traumatic memories I have recently uncovered thanks to my therapist and EMDR, have rung "close to home" with my friend, as her mother was a HUGE N and was extremely abusive to her and her siblings, like dragging her down the stairs by her hair when she was a little kid and other physical and emotional abuse, etc. None of the siblings even have contact with the mother anymore. So I am pretty sure my sharing my recovered memories have been uncomfortable and I was even careful not to say too much about them because of what I knew she had been through. Still, I do think thats part of whats going on. I had just hoped she would be honest with me about that if that was the case -she got really defensive when I even showed concern that she might be pulling back--I didnt even say anything about that I thought it might be because I was triggering memories for her.

Help! What do I do now? I am not good at this stuff because I really dont know what is normal in relationships-my family was too dysfunctional when I was growing up to know what "normal" relationship problem solving is like.

Grace677 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 51

Dear oaktree
how sad your best friend let you down by being there for you. You really shouldn't need to email a real friend 3 wks in advance to see her. I think like thayflies she is uncomfortable with intamacy. You say you know her like your own sister, then that your own sister is an N and you have NC, hope I have got that right. If I have can you see some answers there? Emotions hurt sometimes, some people not only N's simply don't want to look at them, keep theirselves busy to avoid them. I think you have shown you have emotions and she is scared of her own. My thoughts are that she is what I and some of my close friends would call a "weather" person. That is a friend we can only ever discuss such simple things as the nice day stuff with them. I have friends like that they are not close and never will or never can be. You can "know" these people for many years and like and love them just the same they are not bad people, not all of them some are kind and sweet they just run a mile if you get personal, my own dear mother is one. So lots of friendship, practical help, social superflous stuff, but ask them how they feel, they will run a mile, tell them how you feel and see the dust.
It's not you, not at all you have been a friend with with feelings that scare her.
My thoughts are stay with your other friends who understand and accept that this friend is a weather friend, because you have been through so much emotional pain she has seen her own stuff and doesn't want to. Accept her capabilities don't ask her for anything at least for now, you can still be friends but give her some space, ask nothing of her and look around at others who may need you and your experiences to help them also.
Don't write her of just switch to casual, let her contact you. If she doesn't please realise it's not personal you simply showed her things she didn't want to look at or deal with. Some friends run their course, it is sad but our lives become too different for some to cope with. There are others who are going through same things as you. You are not alone keep an open mind for new people too. You have been through a lot stay strong don't be hurt she can't relate to you on this emotional and intimate level, like she said it's not you it's her. With love G xxxxxx

LILYLIVES · Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 39 Location: PA.

Dear Oaktree,

I really have a lot of empathy for you. I do agree with Grace. Since you said her mother was an N, and the things that have happened to her, it seems to me that this is too scary or intimate for her, and maybe brings up PTSD in her?

My brother and I were reunited recently after many years. We both grew up in the same household, with a mother with N. Anyway, he is very different now, and similar to the way you described your friend. He states he has an Attachment Disorder, and is now very obsessive-compulsive. He too, I am learning, likes to be the one to initiate contact. (be in control). I am willing to accept him this way, but for a variety of reasons.

It is sad for you, but I would not regress or initiate contact. I do not feel you did anything wrong, at all.

I hope you find other support, it seems like you will.

PEACE, LOVE AND JOY,

LILY

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 339 Location: Minnesota

thank you all.

she called back. we are just going to drop it on both sides. these things rang true in my gut:

You really shouldn't need to email a real friend 3 wks in advance to see her.

I agree, she is structuring her time because spontaneity makes her uncomfortable. This never used to be the case at all. Something changed while we lived apart. She agreed that she does not allow for anything spontaneous in her life

Emotions hurt sometimes, some people not only N's simply don't want to look at them, keep themselves busy to avoid them. I think you have shown you have emotions and she is scared of her own.

Yes I think you are probably right on there, although she denies that my recent experiences have triggered anything unpleasant in her.

ask them how they feel, they will run a mile, tell them how you feel and see the dust.

The perplexing thing is--our relationship never used to be this way at all. So I am confused.

You have been through a lot stay strong don't be hurt she can't relate to you on this emotional and intimate level, like she said it's not you it's her.

I think we cleared this up at least in her return call. She swears it is not me or my emotional responses to recent events, and that she is not avoiding me in particular. Its just how she is right now. And I believe it now.

it seems to me that this is too scary or intimate for her, and maybe brings up PTSD in her?

Yes I totally agree, although she denies it. But thats okay. I can accept that and give her space and let her make the next contact. I value this relationship too much not to accept where she is at and just hang in there.

Accept her capabilities don't ask her for anything at least for now, you can still be friends but give her some space, ask nothing of her.

Yes THANK you for helping me get my feet back on the ground. It has just been such an overwhelming amount of Nfog clearing lately. I do know I have been pretty clingy. But since I never used to open up or rely on ANYONE, guess the pendulum has to swing the other way for awhile. I can accept that about myself and just will be sensitive about who to bring up my recent revelations with. THANK GOD FOR EVERYONE HERE! Shocked

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Riccy101 · Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 287

Hi Oaktree.

I wonder if you are touching a nerve with her. Is there a secret in her closet? Is she in denial about her own childhood and you are bringing those things out by talking to her about your life?

That's the first thing that jumped into my head as I was reading your post. Something is going on in her head, and she is scared to death to share it with you and perhaps anyone else. Perhaps there is shame in it, incest?

Just a thought.

Riccy

Nomosettl · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 11

Whatever her reasons are, they are her reasons, she has a right to them and she is not required to spill her guts about the whys and the wherefores. It is up to her to make her feelings known when and how she wishes to.

We cannot and should not judge our friends just because they cannot meet a need at a particular time. That's why we have more than one friend.

Friends should not be required to fulfill each and every need for the same reason that a husband cannot and should not be required fulfill each and every need of his wife. It's just not possible nor is it reasonable and it doesn't mean they are being unkind just because they say no.

Your friend has obviously experienced some unpleasantness in her life and has created a structure that makes her feel safe and contributes to her well-being. It sounds like she does not want to let anything in that would threaten her well-being. Can we blame her?

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 339 Location: Minnesota

You wrote: Whatever her reasons are, they are her reasons, she has a right to them and she is not required to spill her guts about the whys and the wherefores. It is up to her to make her feelings known when and how she wishes to.

Yes I agree. to clarify, though, I was not trying to make her spill her guts about the whys and wherefores. I was only expressing my own feelings so that she could respond with hers, if she wished to share anything with me, or if it was something I had done, I wished to apologize. Thats how I see complex long term relationships working.

We cannot and should not judge our friends just because they cannot meet a need at a particular time. That's why we have more than one friend.

I wasnt judging her and I wasnt asking her to meet a need at a particular time. I was asking her if we could spend more time together or if there was something I had done to upset her. And I dont have alot of friends, for reasons which are too complicated to explain here. Let me just say this though, having a family member with Alzheimers/early dementia who you are responsible for 16 hours per day does not allow you to have many friends. We all have different levels of friendship with different people. This person happens to be "my person" as they say on Greys Anatomy, and I was very very afraid I was losing her friendship. You may be trying to help here but it doesnt feel like that. It feels like you are rebuking me for needing someone and asking for that support, which is something I learned NOT to do for years and which I am trying to get over. Excuse me if I seem defensive. I probably am.

Friends should not be required to fulfill each and every need for the same reason that a husband cannot and should not be required fulfill each and every need of his wife. It's just not possible nor is it reasonable and it doesn't mean they are being unkind just because they say no.

ditto the above statement. Thank you for your opinion. I agree. I feel This is not what I was asking of her. But maybe she thought so.

Your friend has obviously experienced some unpleasantness in her life and has created a structure that makes her feel safe and contributes to her well-being. It sounds like she does not want to let anything in that would threaten her well-being. Can we blame her?

I dont think you understand. This is a person that I have known for 27 years. I certainly would not be threatening her well being. I held her when she was having a nervous breakdown, I gave her my blood when she almost died with her first child being born, and I supported her in many rough times in her life. HOWEVER, you are correct in that there is something about what I am going through that would remind her of a horrible childhood. And even if she says it isnt an issue. I think it is. And thats okay. I love this friend very much and sure dont want to make her uncomfortable. As she has said recently, her ex therapist used to say that it was a miracle she was walking on this earth. Thats I think why I got worried she was pulling back because of that--as this statement from her when I talked about my own recent Nfog lifting was about the same time she started spending less time with me. Basically her mother is not only an N but a psychopath. She dealt with her issues 3 x per week in therapy for about 6 years, and she doesnt want to go back there. And I remind her of that. So I am just going to give it all some space, not mention my innermost feelings and things I am dealing with in therapy, and let her decide when she has time for me. I did ask her if we can not have our friendship by email though, as we live only 10 miles apart and there are too many chances for misunderstanding in email.

So thanks to all of you for your posts and they gave me some things to think about, as did my therapist when I discussed it with him. It all helps.

Oaktree

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 339 Location: Minnesota

ya I thought the same thing you did. incest. or something else. because when she said the thing about it being a miracle she is walking on this earth, according to her ex therapist--it has been at least 10 years since she saw him. so she waited along time to say even that to me. i later asked her if she wanted to share why he would say that its a miracle she is alive---and she said no-that she has never told anyone except her therapist and her husband. i never asked about it again, but as soon as i mentioned the recovered memories i had about my sisters ex molesting me is about the same time she started really pulling back.

i feel so bad for her. cuz i know it had to be really awful when she worked through that with her T. I was in another state coping with my ex having brain surgery at the time, so wasnt available to her when she was dealing with that old memory.

but she is my "person," so I am not going to bring up any of the details of my therapy to her anymore, because even though she says it doesnt trigger anything in her, I can tell it does. Also, I can tell she still hasnt worked through all the issues with her Nmother, because when she was ill and supposed to die, and happens to live in another country now, all 5 of the kids (my friend and her 4 siblings-who all have little or no contact with her) started saying "well if she dies, YOU have to deal with it and make the arrangements. I cant." They were throwing that around between them like a hot potato! Laughing

ah, life is so complicated, isnt it? interesting, but complicated. well gotta go to bed. We are supposed to get 12-14 inches tonight overnight and tomorrow and I have to get up and take my son about 12 miles to an appt at 8 AM. YUK!!

Again, thanks to all of you for your posts.

Nomosettl · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 11

Oaktree,
I did not intend to come on so strong in my post. I guess I was relating to your friend and taking up for her (not that she needed it). I had a "friend" at a job once (younger than I) who just about wore me out over a period of several years with her incessant calls wantin to talk about her husband problems. I couldn't graciously get her off the phone and she just about wore me down over a period of years with her incessant calls.
I don't like for anyone to need me that much. It was a burden. I wish I had had the courage to tell her early on that she was calling way too much.

I am not saying that you would abuse the calling as much as this girl did but your friend may be afraid that it would turn into that.

You did mention that you had already talked to 2 other friends who said it was okay for you to call them if you had a panic attack and needed support, so it's not like you are totally friendless.

I'm just expressing my opinion. I may be way off base so just ignore me if I am and, again, I am sorry if I came on too strong. I wish you the best in your recovery. I think you're gonna be fine.

JulesJ2 · Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 1

Oaktree-
Unless theres something I'm missing in reading your posts, I'm thinking that your friend has SO MUCH resurfacing from her past that she is unable to process anyone elses dilemmas and is having trouble processing her own. Being as how she is seeing a therapist tells me shes dealing with it. Just be your best and let her know that you value and miss her friendship and will always be there if she needs a supportive friend to talk to and leave it at that. Know in your heart that you didn't do the wrong thing by shutting her out. Two wrongs don't make a right. Question

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 339 Location: Minnesota

Jules--My friend is not seeing a therapist. She hasnt seen one for 10 years which I put in one of my rambling posts above. I did not shut her out-she has shut me out-both by refusing to take my occasional (probably once per month) panic calls, and refusing to include me or be included with other friends.

In my opinion she HAS been dealing with something recently and I am finally realizing its not me. (I have some hunches). She has been developing some rigid, isolating behaviors (like saying, "I never talk spontaneously on the phone," or, "I never spontaneously go to lunch or a movie, I have to keep to a rigid schedule of work, exercise, and running errands to maintain my health") (I need to schedule everything at least 3 weeks in advance) and I am the opposite-I am becoming "thawed out from the Nfog emotionally and self esteem wise," responsive to others, enjoying doing different things I haven't been able to do for years because of my ex spouse with dementia, more relaxed MOST of the time (except when I have these horrible panic attacks about once per week), enjoying life, etc. We both have the same level of responsibilities with work and kids, so thats not it.

I am pretty sure that some of the things I have discovered in the last two years have been difficult for her to listen to (although she denies that), but I really don't "lean" on her that much. In the last two years, usually she would initiate contact, emailing me a couple of times per week at work, and then we would get together about once per week. So it has been perplexing to see this difference in her behavior. It makes me sad, but like I said, we have been friends for 27 years, so I am very hopeful that she will come around. Meanwhile, I am just going to work on me, and let it be. If I am only to talk to her by phone or in person once every 3 weeks now, so be it. (bummer). But I DID ask her not to email me at work, because I don't want our primary communication to be by email. Its too easy to confuse words--as is evidenced right here Confused

My therapist has given me his cell number so that will help if I have a panic attack and if I cant reach one of my other two contacts to go through the exercise recommended by him.

I am just going to pray that my dear, dear friend thaws out/opens up, and relaxes a bit more to enjoy life a little more spontaneously than scheduling everything 3 weeks in advance, and I am going to pray that she occasionally includes me in activities with her other friends, and vice versa.

Thanks for all of your insights.

movedon · Site Admin Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 818

I had a therepist who told me to draw a mental line on people who ring up and need help as they have to understand you have your time to
but I disagree I'm always there for my friend day or night.
If she has issues fair enough thats her choice and I feel so sorry when you need her she cant be there for you.Reading what you have written it sounded to me like she just couldnt cope with it , I wouldnt blame her for that.(Which im sure your not either it must seem confusing to you it would to me)
I hope you find someone else who will be kind to you and give you a calming influence to quell your panic attacks(my daughter had them aqupunture helped hers )
(((((((((((((hugs to you )))))))))) and i hope you can get help through this
I will pray you can

hugs
movedon
xxxxxx
xxxxxx