Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

femfree · Site Admin Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 654

Can fledgling Psychopaths be spotted in childhood?

http://www.autismwebsite.com/crimetimes/97c/w97cp3.htm

wahela11 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 182 Location: Iowa

Hi Fem, I read the article with interest. As you know, I helped raise two little psychopaths. And neither fit the description of a hyperactive child (and one didn't even fit the description of a CD child). They have both been diagnosed as BPD, ASPD with thrill seeking, in a major psych eval with a well known Psychiatrist in Colorado. Here's what I observed:

1. The oldest one appeared friendly, loving, caring. She lied a lot, we thought that was her only problem. These girls went through 7 years of therapy weekly with two therapists. By the time she was 12, she was getting caught with lists of boys in school that she had given oral sex to. They gave the list to us. When her period started, she would not change, she would leave on the same pad for days, and would have dark stains on all of her clothes, not wash her clothes and thenw ear them again (I thought this was perhaps a major mental illness thing. ) She tried to drown small animals all the time. By the time she was 16, she was taking money from guys for sex. Her classmates voted her "Most Likely to be a Bartender with two illegitimate children." LOL. Seriously! She would shower only when made to, and would not wash off her makeup for weeks at a time. She was "biker chick" type and smoked and drank like a fish by the time she was 16. She never got to go on a date, because she was always grounded for skipping school, sneaking out, beating up her sister, lying, stealing, fighting with the neighbors, etc. But until she reached puberty, we thought her only problem was lying. She also was "sexualized" by the age of 5 (when I met them) and was extremely electra complexed even then. I often wondered about this, but she never said anything about it in therapy, either.

2. SEcond child fit description of CD . She sucked her thumb and pooped her pants until she was well over 10 years old. I thought perhaps she had been sexually molested, but nothing ever came up in therapy. She killed 16 baby chicks by drowning them 1 by 1 with a look of excitement on her face. Then left them in the water and walkedaway. Both girls get something out of drowning things. I fear for their children. Second child assaulted kindergarten and also first grade teacher, getting suspended. Broke out windows, beat up animals, tore the phone apart, lied, cheated, stealed, burglarized, (gave oral sex to her sister's boy acquaintances when she was 10, because "he" was too big for her sister). Refused to shower, peed on her floor in her room because she didn't want to go to the bathroom, also refused to change pads (even tho a large box under sink in bathroom), smoked and drank before 12. Took her bed apart in anger, tore sheets to pieces, tried to beat me up many times, tried to beat up her therapist once, (therapist made her walk home , 2 miles, lol). She was the psychological incested daughter, who tried to compete with me all the time for her father's attention.

The second one was very difficult, but the older one was much more damaging to everyone and everything around her, much more anger, lying, crimes, etc. And when we started therapy, their Father (the major NP) told the therapist "K is allright, she just lies a little bit." LOL
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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, each time, hoping for a different ending

Rak-Dee · Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Posts: 9 Location: UK

Dear wahela11

When I read your post, and plus I have a friend living temporary in my house,I feel like 'I don't want to study Psychology anymore....I wanted to be Psychologist, or a counsellor and my dream is one day I have a school name 'school of life' teach and raise children to grown up in the right way.
but now I go back to the old belieft again....'some children born to be bad girls or boys....it's their nature, it what they made to be.....
some children in my country they born in a very poor family and enviroment, from a nasty parent, but many now become a successful person in our society.....
in your case they have been in good care &Theraphy for years.But still doesn't change or get better.
So I immagine that this is the way of life.....earth&world....that we need them.....
if everyone, every thing nice, good , positive, beautiful, wonderful,...etc
I wonder what we are going to call 'it'?

How long human have trying to make lives and world better?
How far we got to?
Are we better, happier than 1,000 yrs ago?, 100 yrs ago?10 yrs ago?
Yes we have so much comfortable things, we have many organisations, charities to help people......but is it really better than the past?
I am thinking that what human society is going to be like in the 50 or 100 yrs time?...There are more better person and happily people?
Less problem?....peacful world?.....

wahela11 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 182 Location: Iowa

Hi Rak dee. I met the P stepdaughters when they were 6 and 4 years old. I insisted on therapy for them because the youngest child seemed to have a conduct disorder (didn't know the name for it then tho). She broke windows, drowned chicks, was going in her pants and sucking her thumb. Clearly she needed some help.

the older girl "seemed" better and nicer. But she was hating and raging inside, unable to say it on the outside because of her NP Father. He was a raging, throw kids who argue, drinking, evil man.

But as they grew up, the younger girl calmed down somewhat. And the older girl became unmanageable, sneaky, more lying, sexualized and angrier. I would hate to see her now, because she'dprobably have a knife behind her back.

Her therapist said that both girls had RAD (reactive attachment disorder). They were born knowing that their Mother did not want them and the entire world was unsafe to them because they could not love or trust anyone. Because of their Mom. However, their Father was/is a raging angry screaming, drunken, abusive Father. So perhaps it is RAD. I don't know. Or perhaps its their environment, being raised by this FAther. Perhaps it is genetic, because both parents have some kind of disorder.

Hopefully the world will be a better place in the future. Life seems to be more complicated every year. But throughout history, we have all had hope for the future. We wouldn't have love or birth children without hope.
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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, each time, hoping for a different ending

mommybunny1 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 264 Location: Middle Atlantic

Wahela, the similarities between your stepchildren and mine leave me speechless....

MB
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Mommybunny

wahela11 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 182 Location: Iowa

I am amazed that I am not the only one that lived through that. I always feel that people don't really believe that they are/were this bad. When I met them, I thought (like a lot of people do), that they needed a Mother figure and because they felt unloved, perhaps that's why they were so bad. Well, now that I know their DX, I realize that again, I am working so hard to help and love, and its all for nothing, because one can't change an NP diagnosis. Just like with the exNP, I felt if I loved him enough, and worked hard enough, he would relax and feel loved and be nicer. And I did the same with his children.

When the youngest stepdaughter was about five, I used to sit in a rocking chair and watch TV, and she would ask to sit with me. So we would watch TV with her snuggled up on my lap. Then minutes later, she'd ruin something of mine (probably to avoid any feeling of closeness).

AFter I had detached from the whole family, about six months before I left, I quit having eye contact with any of them. Of course, then the exNP blamed all of their bad behavior on the fact that I would not look at them all, and said that I was showing that I didn't love any of them. When they would do something bad, I would again remember to think , "Not my kid, not my problem." Which meant the exNp had to parent then. That really angered him, and also the girls. He continually tried to make me the parent, so he didn't have to be, (even tho he changed the rules behind my back and forgot to tell me the new ones). It was a chaotic confused mess all the time.

The exNP and I would sit down and decide on the rules for the girls, and what disciplines they would get if they broke these rules. Then I would go to the store, and come home and they would be doing the exact thing we had decided was a rule. I would tell them to stop doing this and go to their room. And that they had broken a rule in the house. And they would say, "Dad told us just a few minutes ago that this was okay." So I would go ask him, and he would say, "Oh sure, I forgot to tell you that I told them it was okay." "Didn't you remember that we had decided that this was one of the rules we had made?" "Oh yeah, but I decided that you were just being mean when you made that rule." GRRRRRRR How aggravating.

And that was just one little bit of my day, back then. I had no control or power in my house. I brought in the money, they spent it, yet I had no control over anything.

The exNP could never figure out why I would say it was not my house, that I felt like I was in a Hotel. He'd say "of course, its your house." But then he would do what he wanted, and everything was HIS control and power issue. When I was sick, I would be homesick and wish I was in my own little house, with my stuff around me, and nobody to make me feel like I was an orphan. Now I have my own little house, and everything in it is mine (needs cleaning, lol). and I am amazed at the years I put up with being the "outsider".

wahela
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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, each time, hoping for a different ending

want_to_learn · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 33 Location: Scotland, UK

Well I wish I knew then what I knew now.it may not have changed anything in the long run cos I believe my daughter is as she is no matter what..but it would have changed my outlook on klife with her...there may not have been the same amount of confusion and I may have made changes to my life that would have left me happier and calmer just now.

wahela11 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 182 Location: Iowa

Want to learn, I believe that hindsight is 20/20. If we only knew then what we know now................

I think it is difficult to try to show love to these children and continue to have boundaries, because they equate love with being weak. And when you try to show them love, they think its now time to take advantage and get what you want. We CAN show love even with huge boundaries. But its difficult in any case. We just want to relax and show them they are loved. But we cannot relax and do that. We have to be on our toes all the time.

One time, I spent hours hooking up DSL for the oldest P stepdaughter, we joked and laughed, had fun (for once). And the next day, she turned me in to social services for abuse. She had a red mark on her arm (her therapist luckily saw her do it), and said I beat her. I had to have social services call the therapist to confirm that I didn't do it. I am a nurse. She could have really screwed up my career with that.

And nothing was ever straightened out. After she called SS on me, it never got talked about, we all just walked around each other angry. (I did walk into her room and undo the DSL and told the exNP that I'm not going to pay for this after what she did. But it is never resolved, it just goes on and on, adding one more thing to the top of the pile, day after day. Pretty soon, it seems to be about 50' tall and no one can even figure out what happened.

I think its easier to have control and power in your home with a child P, rather than an adult P. At least you can maintain boundaries with children (for awhile anyway). But the total dysfunction and chaos is just as bad, or worse when it is a child (who supposedly doesn't understand and you can't be as gruff with as with an adult) KWIM?
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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, each time, hoping for a different ending

want_to_learn · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 33 Location: Scotland, UK

To Wahela.your replies are like a breath of fresh air.thank you.and even with hindsight etc, my daughter would still be as she is. She is now 20 and we were thrown into the abyss with her when she reached around 14/puberty and it has gone downhill ever since. She had a good family life....she had plenty but wouldn't say she was spoiled..spare the rod and spoil the child???lol!.......and discipline and respect were always high on our agenda.along with good manners.and she was fine, manipluative etc when younger but there was no indication she is as she is............in some ways, i am glad we only found out recently cos having to go through her childhood and knowing would have been awful. I looked back at people I went to school with.some real handfuls there etc and now almost all of them have settled down to responsible careers etc.so you live in hope....but this with her will never settle down or go away, its too severe.and the lies...omg!!.........she came here screaming and crying on new years day (2006).begging me to adopt her 18month old baby.......said all sorts of stuff that knocked us off our feet.......then went to the police and said I had kidnapped her and stolen her baby!.......no logic at all with these people.

wahela11 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 182 Location: Iowa

Hi, well, it IS logical.....................to them. They think they have perfectly wonderful reasons for the things they do. Neither your nor I know what they are, but I suppose there ARE reasons (even if it revenge from ten years ago).

I finally learned before leaving the exNP that whenever something sounds good, there is a "down" side to it. And we all know that I will be the one to get screwed over. Never the NP. If he volunteered his car for me to drive to work (I had the car with no radio or heater, lol), there was a reason. Usually it just meant he had no gas in his car and was too lazy to fill up. Or his tires would be bald and he didn't want to drive around town on bare tires, so he let me take his car 45 miles to work. (can you see the problems here?). If he wanted to take me out dancing, I learned that he wanted to go drinking (not dancing) and wanted me to sit at the bar, bored stiff for about 10 hours while he drank with all of his buddies. And staying there til 2 am, having to go to work at six (45 miles away). Then, of course, when we got home, I'd be furious and he'd want sex.

Everything that they do is for their benefit. Sometimes its nice for us, but its always good for them. I spent a lot of money after I left, paying off the check into cash bills, the pawn shop bills, etc. He knew I was a sucker and didn't want him and two children to be without. So I had bought 300dollars worth of food, paid all the bills, then spent the next few months paying off the pawn shops, etc. His oldest daughter (who had been giving oral sex to every boy in school for years), told the Police that I had stolen 250 dollars from her when I left. It was bad for me, but she thought she could get some money out of me, I guess. I told her exNP father, "Where in heck did she get 250 dollars? did she prostitute herself for money now instead of just cigarettes?" His answer, "Well, I don't know, but you owe her that money." I knew then and I know now she had absolutely no money. She spent every penny she ever got. But they both thought I was a real money bags, I guess. I never said another word about it, and the exNP never brought it up again.

The P children are so damaging to the adults around them. We are raised to believe that children are innocent, loving, caring people. That the mean people around them are the reason for their lack of caring. So of course, we take care to NOT damage them. What people don't realize is, they damage us a whole lot more than people can imagine. I don't even like being around teenagers anymore. I get extremely uncomfortable around young people now. My grandchildren are the only ones that I am comfortable around.

When I met the exNP and his children, I was determined that I would not force changes around them, that their life should continue with their Father disciplining them, etc. As the years went by, they got used to my putting up with and never having a say in what happened in my own house. Then I got to the point where no one listened or wanted my imput. so I was merely the money tree, and continued miserable around that house. I am glad, in a way, that the P stepchildren were diagnosed ASPD, BPD with thrill seeking, because that validates my feelings were not screwy, they REALLY WERE screwed up.

I used to think, "Everybody in this house is crazy except me. And I'm really beginning to worry about ME!"
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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, each time, hoping for a different ending

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

I remember the joy with which I received my first son in my arms--he became the center of my life, and 17 months later, I held my second son in my arms and loved him and the two of them became my joy and my job (at that point I was a stay at home mom, and managed the apartment complex we lived in)

Later, when we moved back to Arkansas from California so we could raise the kids in a "small town atmosphere" I worked at jobs that would leave me home with the kids while they were awake and I worked evenings while they slept. Most everything centered around "family life' and I thoroughly enjoyed the boys. When my first son started school it became apparent that he was hyper--and had him tested, ADHD, but elected not to put him on medication and to put him instead on the Feingold diet (no artificial colors, no cow milk, no artificial flavors) and the diet helped a great deal and he did well in the first 4 years of school.

My younger son was quite the little angel, much less "trouble" than the older ADHD one, and blossomed in Kindergarten and in first and second grades.

When they were 9 and 10 I had a traumatic divorce from their father which left us financially destitute and me an emotionala cripple for a while. I started back to college, rented a small house near my parents, and got my nursing degree. The boys were not deprived of anything significant, in fact, I took the older one out of public school and put him into a private religious school that was very quiet and he did much better there (less destractions) than in public school. Both boys were very bright.

Then "Little Peter Perfect" (not his real name of course) my younger one began to show signs of N & P (though at the time I didn't recognize what they were.) I had had them in counseling for a couple of years after the traumatic divorce and they seemed to being well, until the N/P started stealing, became definant and ran away from home. He was taken out of public school, and sent to stay with my step dad and mom during the week so he could go to a private school and have more supervision than I could give him working and going to school myself. He came home on weekends. Over all, things went well until he became 15 and things went down hill from there with open definance and other conduct disorders.

Years later, after he was in prison for murder, and I went to work as a nurse at a psych hospital which was filled with budding N, P, and BPFs, that I finally realised what I had been dealing with all those years. I had seen the similarities to my bio-father, but reading Dr. Robert Hare's books opened my eyes with the "Ah Ha effect" and I started educating myself about personality disorders. Eventually I went into psych nursing and case management of chronicly mentally ill and worked with BPDs and Ps. I also found that there were parents with children "worse than mine" which was surprising to me..and actually some comfort, because I finally relaized that I was NOT ALONE. I wasn't the only parent distraught over the conduct of their child.

It helped me to not "blame myself" for my son "turning out this way" and the only different thing looking back with 20:20 hind sight that I would have done, was when he cursed me when he was 17 and at the police station...I would NEVER HAVE GONE BACK and gotten him. I would have established NC then. Would have ultimately saved me a great deal of pain.

Society at large, I think, never having dealt with this type of child, thinks that if the parents "do their best" that the child should turn out okay. But I think that the newly recognized "adoption syndrome" where most of the white babies available for adoption now come from personality disordered mothers are now showing up later as personality disordered children. The adoptive parents for the most part are loving, good parents--who are trying their best to raise these children who have the genetics of personality disorders and these parents are having great difficulty with them.

Having worked in mental hospitals working with these children on an inpatient basis is a scary job for sure. Many of them are dangerous predators by age 10, and it is not safe to leave them around smaller children or animals. How these parents cope with this 24/7 would be a task that would make any parent want to jump off a tall building!

Our jail and prisons are becoming the new "housing" for these Ps. Dr. Hare says 20% of the prison population is P. 4% of the general population are Ps.

Counseling,, therapy, inpatient treatment, and eventually prison for most of these children when they reach adulthood are the only options available, and I can't see that any of them help much.
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Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

wahela · Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 188 Location: Iowa

The longer I deal with and work on healing from the damage of Ps, the more I am tending to think its genetic. Everyone that has this disorder seems to have a relative above them with it too. Sometimes its in a straight line from parent to child, sometimes its an uncle or someone on the side.

Twenty five years ago, they said that schizophrenia was caused because a child was raised by a schizophrenicgenic Mother. Now they know that it isn't caused by being raised by a Mother that damages the child, its caused by genetically being passed on from Mother to child. Because they can raise a schizophrenic person in another household, and that child will still have schizophrenia.

RAD children, IMO, are the first line of P children. They tend to blame the parent (that RAD children had no one to bond with when they were born). Well, perhaps RAD children are unable to bond with anyone? Because of their P genetics? I don't believe any more that RAD children are made when Mother is distracted and the child cannot bring the Mother to bond. I believe that child is born unable to bond himself.

The P stepdaughters were initially diagnosed RAD. I was told stories about the adopted children with RAD, good parents adopting these children and finding out that they have a monster-child to raise. Nobody said anything about a possible genetic connection. Which is what I believe now.

When the P stepdaughter got her psych eval for BPD, ASPD with thrill seeking (a 15 page document), her therapist commented, "Just like over half of the women over the hill (Colorado Department of Corrections Women's Prison)". and then she cancelled all future appointments because "we have children we can help, waiting for these appointments."

wahela
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"Expect to have hope rekindled. Expect your prayers to be answered in wonderous ways. The dry seasons of life do not last. The spring rains will come again."
-Sara BanBreathnach

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Wahela, I agree with you. My N/P son was nursed (as was my previous son) and the "odd" thing about him was that rather than cuddling into my arms and molding himself to the front of my body with his face at the breast, he tilted his head backwards and his body OUTWARD from my body, so that I had to position him on the arm of the rocking chair with his feet pointed away from my body, and his face pressed up against the breast to nurse him. I was young and never told anyone about this odd positioning for nursing that he had but it was something I noted in my mind at the time.

I had to take him off the breast at 6 wks because I came down with measles and my 105 degree temp dried up my milk over night, and he seemed "okay" with the switch from breast to bottle. But reading about babies with "failure to bond" has always made me wonder about him and his odd positioning at birth.

He seemed like a happy baby, no "trouble" at all with feeding or milestones of progress, but he had to have surgery at age 5 months, and that set him back considerably. He didn't sit up any more, and was pretty well not making much progress then he stood up, walked etc. all of a sudden at age 11 1/2 months and was where he should have been physically. He never talked much though, like my previous son had, and he and the older boy (17 months older) actually developed a "private" language. The younger (N/P) would make a series of sounds and the older one would say, "He wants a cookie." This went on until the younger one was about 3 and not talking much at all. One day my mother put him at the bar on a stool with some cookies while she was washing dishes and he said, "One, Two, Three..." mother was amazed that he counted the 3 cookies and kept giving him more until he counted to 20 and only missed one #. We didn't even know the kid could talk and here he was counting. It turned out that his older brother had also taught him his ABCsand a great number of other things.

At 3 1/2 he was placed in a nursery school, where being away from his older brother, he blossomed and became a very outgoing and charming child. His social skills were remarkably good, and his intellectual and education progress were outstanding. At this age, we saw no signs that he was anything "strange" or personality disordered, except he did tend to "over please" His ADHD brother would invariably spill his glass of milk at the table at almost every meal. The younger one would immediately say "I didn't spill MY milk" or whatever "bad thing' his brother had done...he seemed very anxious to point out that HE was the "good" son and didn't get dirty, didn't spill his milk, didn't make messes, etc. and the family began to joke and call him "little Peter Perfect" ( even though his name was not peter, but it did start with a P)

The first sign I saw of him being a problem was the theft at age 11, and the denial, even in spite of overwhelming evidence and his co-conspiritor being there, etc. Then his coldly running away and when caught saying very coldly "you can't watch me 24 hours a day. I will do it again."

I definitely believe heredity plays a big roll--since he seems to be a clone of my bio-father who is N/P classic case--and later history on my son and his crimes, attitudes, lack of insight etc. grandiosity etc. all make him also a "classic case" but I too have wondered is the failure to bond genetic, or part of an environmental problem too, illness on the part of the mother or separated at birth by illness of the child, or war orphans,e tc.??

I think in my son's case, his odd posture at birth with nursing was some sort of sign of something but I am not sure what. I just know it was there. I also know that my son is like his grandfather who is classic N/P and t here is a long history of family dysfunction back behind my bio-father.
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Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

wahela · Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 188 Location: Iowa

I tend to think that these P children are unable to bond when they are born. People say the "Mother was under stress" or "Mother was going through a trauma,", etc. But they always say that the Mother was unable to bond. Or the child was adopted and God only knows what the caregiver was like before he was adopted. So almost all of the RAD problems are blamed on the caregiver failing to bond. Well, I also know some very loving caring Mothers that had children not able to bond. And I think that these children are probably genetic problem children. If schizophrenia is hereditary, then its just as likely a personality disorder is also hereditary. Lots of things are hereditary.

the youngest P stepdaughter went through the bonding process with me when she was about six. They would talk and talk to her, get her all upset and raging, then bring her down to crying, and give her to me in a dark room, so that I could love on her. She would cry and apologize and lots of tears. And I really believe that she felt something at that time. but she could only fight off so much damage from the exNP and heredity.
(that was about the same time that child in Evergreen Colorado was being bonded and they wrapped her up in a blanket, wanting her to be rebirthed to her adoptive Mother, and she died in the blanket, couldn't breathe) Of course, when a RAD child is raging, they ALWAYS say they can't breathe, even when they are yelling and screaming.

wahela
_________________
"Expect to have hope rekindled. Expect your prayers to be answered in wonderous ways. The dry seasons of life do not last. The spring rains will come again."
-Sara BanBreathnach

mama-bear · Joined: 11 Jul 2007 Posts: 3

Can you recognize them when they are children?
I had a P grandmother, a P nephew, and P niece...and still didn't see that my own son was a P until he was 18. A friend, psychologist, helping us to deal with problems he was causing finally made me aware of it!
Such a shock!

Looking back...yes! I can see it there. He was always causing some kind of trouble. Lying, cheating, sneaking, manipulating....and the weird way of looking at everything. Using his siblings hurt feelings to entertain himself...and NEVER any sorrow or remorse. No rules for him...unless there was no way out of it! I was so blind!

I could see it easily in my nephew and my niece.
But Ps target people, remember? He made sure I thought highly of him. He even tried to break his dad and I apart, because his dad was VERY aware of what the P was doing. He HATED his dad and threatened to kill him...and would have done so if it would have benefitted him.

Yes... there are many theories about what causes it. Genetic predisposition is very likely. Contributing factors...maybe vaccinations... who knows so far!

The point is... if you know what to look for then you can see it. But parents tend to excuse their children's behaviour.
And I worry about my grandchildren.

But, in the end...what can you do?
Love the people you need to love.
We all will have to answer for our actions one day.
They will answer for theirs...maybe. Maybe not.
Maybe they are not capable of responsibility.
But I want a clear conscience....I did my part.
But since I have done my part...and they are now going to cause misery and ugliness in the lives around them...I WILL NOT be part of that!
I will not support their actions.
I will not let them get their kicks out of hurting me or mine.
I will love them...from a huge distance...with prayer...but with NO CONTACT of any sort.

The lady psychologist who helped us...told us that they do NOT and CANNOT understand kindness and sympathy.
I know now how right she was.
They are USERS! They don't feel love... just a NEED to get an emotional fix...by using you...or hurting you...or manipulating you somehow!
They don't care about you... they only care about themselves.

I truly believe that for each of us as an individual...the only solution is to give them to God... pray for them and stay away from them.

The world who has not yet seen the way these people are...will not understand what is going on. You will be blamed and branded...cold mother...cruel daughter...unforgiving person!

But there will be more and more of these headlines... they are willing to do these things...for the fix it will give them. There are a lot of them out there...and a lot of them in the school systems..(so many children to manipulate!)

One more quote from the lady psychologist/friend...
"Ps don't become crazy... but they DO make other people feel crazy!"

DON'T LET THEM MAKE YOU CRAZY!
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Lord, give me the strength to know the difference!