Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Hi,

First would like to day this site is great.

A very close friend of mine (I shall refer to her as "Jane") has been married to a man with NPD for over 20 years. Although neither one of us has come right out and used the term NPD, it is obvious from his behaviour and treatment of her that he is.

Jane has talked about leaving him due to his controlling ways and the many other traits of someone with NPD. She has stated that in the past he has "forbidden" her from being friends with other women, so I am very careful around him, as if he were aware of our discussions, he will have me banished from her life as well.

How do I support her until/if she finally breaks free of him? Obviously it is a touchy subject, and I do not wish to overstep and intrude on what will be a choice that Jane, and only Jane can make for herself. I cannot simply walk away, as I care for her as a sister, but I do not know the best way to support and be there for her. I have to "bite my tongue" around him, as this will only cause her grief. Also, an abused woman can be protective of her abuser, and she may shut me out or regret talking about him with me. Janes' self-esteem is so low at times, I am not sure how/when a person gets to the point when dealing with a NPD that they make the decision to leave them. Until that time, when I can refer her to this site and any other help she may require, I just do not know how best to help her.

Any advice and suggestions will be greatfully apreciated.

Hi LMJ

Welcome.

When I read your post it lit up some lights for me. But for different reasons.

Are you sure the husband is an N? Have you seen specific incidents which would make you believe he is? Prehaps you have seen him upset or withdrawn but not because he is an N, but becuase of what the N puts him through. N's rarely show bad behaviour in public - they manage to get their targets to that for them. N's appear as saints. Have you ever given him time to discuss issues to see the other side of the story? Is there a male figure in your life which you dislike which makes you want to believe your friend and side with her? Is it possible you have obtained this info against him from your friend only - or even her friends (which she has also manipulated)? Given your strong desire to help your friend is it posisble you have some co depency issues? Has your friend managed to put you in a position so you do not discuss these things with him - in case you find out the truth/ other side of the story. Perhaps her story about forbidden women friends has facilited in you the barrier to speak with him (clever tactic on their behalf). When she says these things to you about him is it in a exclusive private situation - where other close members cannot hear the things she says on phone, email, or over meal/coffee, just two of you? Is it possible your friend is the N?

I ask all these as one thing N's will do is find a support base and do all they can to make them selves look like the victim. In doing so they enlist people to support them (NS), and also the bonus which is to alienate the partner. Did you confirm with the husband that he made the remark about forbidding her to be friends with other women - or did you just take her word for it? It does sound a little weird - doesn't it? You think he woudl rather she was friends with males if he was that controlling - I don't think so. Are you accepting everyting she says as gospel.

You have assumed she has low self esteem because of her supposed abuse - she may have low self esteem because she is the N. Do you often find her dropping her vision down when telling you these things - not looking directly at you?

I speak from personal experience of this. My N has made the biggest efforts to alienate me from the people I like/love the most. I once observed when I spoke of a friend of hers and how much I thought she was a great person, but was sad that she was having such a difficult life - well guess who she spends hours with these days bad mouthing me to. She is very clever that way. she has worked out who the people I trust/like/love the most and has targeted them to use to belittle me - and to make her support group.

I am saddened by her antics - and they are daily. I have heard her speak lies against me when she didn't know I did. I have seen correspondence doing the same. I see the resentment friends of ours have for me (after she has met with them) - it is all so painful because it is not true - it is nothing more then her toxic mouth and malicious ways. Further I can't defend myself against this silence assassin. I wish one of them would have the courage to discuss with me some of the things she says - they may get to see another side. More importantly that they could see that they were being abused by her for her NS. What she does is not only unfair to me - it is unfair to them. Rest assured she is only using them.

Perhaps your friend is right, and of course if she is, then good friends will help her. But be careful as she may be the N and using you for her NS - don't dismiss the possibilities. Perhaps question more when she raises issue - in particular when the story seems to be missing something, oris really out there like the one baout being friends with other females. Their lies have big holes if you investiagte further. Better still see if you can (carefully) check some of this information from her husband.

I suppose I am saying you may be batting for the wrong side - and being manipulated in this with your good intentions to assist. These intentions make you the perfect target for an N. My suggestion is to make further assessment for yourself before you make that call to throw all your support behind her - you may end up being an accomplice to her game and in fact be wrongly judging and hurting the wrong person - the real victim in this.

Try this link and see how and why they do their smear campains - http://www.thenarcissistandpsychopath.y ... mpaign.php

Also refer this link to another post where I obtained the above link - gives you an opportunity to see other members comments about this behaviour. http://thepsychopath.freeforums.org/the ... 15510.html

Thank you for your concern and input, however I truly believe that Jane is not the N. I shall refer to her husband, the N, as John. But since I am here for help, I could be wrong, so I am looking for help/advice?

A little background............I met Jane and John several years ago through mutual friends. Only in the last year or so, since I have moved within a few blocks of them, have Jane and I become very close friends. As I said, we are like sisters. Myself , I am 40, single with no children. I was engaged ten years ago to a wonderful man who was killed in an accident. My mother (my only living relative) died a little over a year ago, so I have spent the last Xmas, Thanksgiving, Easter holidays, etc with them at their house. They have 2 sons, 26 and 19. Out at the local pub, Jane and John (who can be a very charming and entertaining man) seem like the most happily married couple. John loves to tell jokes and stories and be the centre of attention. Looking back, the first thing to strike me as “off”, was when a day prior to the US elections (we live in Canada, in a town right by the US border near Buffalo) Jane made a simple comment that she felt Obama would win. John flew off the handle, started a 5 minute rant, about Jane being so stupid as she only said that because that is what The Toronto Sun had on their front page... On and on he went about how “uniformed” and ignorant she was, and since his business dealings take him regularity to Buffalo, “HE” knows different, etc..... Jane basically sat there with her head hung low, not saying anything. It was a very uncomfortable situation, as it was just the 3 of us sitting in their living room. I chalked it up to John having a bad day, etc, as this was the first time I had seen him talk to her like she was a complete idiot. Since then, I have seen it happen several times with John saying Jane does not know what she is talking about, is stupid, where does she get these ideas etc.... Jane is not allowed to have her own email account or Face book page. Jane has never said any negative or insulting about her husband. It was a few months ago, after John went to bed, that she told me she was seriously considering packing her bags and leaving John. I was shocked. She said she was tired of his controlling ways, constantly phoning her several times a day, and not even being allowed to even go to the grocery store on her own. Jane said he expects her to work f/t, cook, clean, do laundry, etc, and be dressed to the nines at all times and be ready at a minutes notice to drop whatever she is doing, and go out with him to the local pub or one of his friends house. She went on to further say he was always asking if she was cheating on him, asking if she regrets marrying him, would she have rather have married the guy she dated prior to him, as this ex was going to school for engineering. I have been there and heard him talk about this ex-boyfriend of hers, whom she has not seen or had contact with for over 25 years. Jane is not allowed to visit my home, without him, cannot go to the mall without him, as he picks out her clothes. I have witnessed him telling her to go back and change her clothes, as he was NOT going anywhere with her dressed like “that”. Every time he is home to watch hockey, football or a race, she must be in the kitchen deep frying wings, fries etc.... Jane does all the cooking, cleaning, yard work, etc.. Her whole day is scheduled around when he is coming home and when he wants dinner. John does nothing around the house. John states he cannot walk their dogs in the morning, as he makes so much money, that to take the ½ hour to walk them, would mean that is a ½ hour he is not making money. Jane is not allowed to get her own car. She wakes up at 4 am to drive him to work, comes home to walk the dogs and then gets herself ready to goto her full-time job, then needs to be “on call” in the late afternoon so that when he calls to say he is done work, she is ready to drop everything to pick him up. I think the only reason she is allowed a cell phone, is so that he can contact her. One time when she drove me to a hospital an hour away for some medical tests, he phoned 3 times on the way there, asking where on the highway was she. The same happened on the way home. Jane stated that when I was in having my test, he had called several times as well. John refers to me as his “other” wife, the “back-up wife” to fetch him a beer because Jane is too busy in the kitchen cooking for him. If the 3 of us go out to the local pub, he brags to all about how he is the one walking in with a blonde on one arm, and a redhead on the other. John tries to demean me, calling me a psycho bitch, a loser who cannot get a boyfriend etc.... A few weeks ago, John was going on about how if Jane ever gained so much as a pound, he would leave her. I laughed and called him a hypocrite, saying he looked about 6 months pregnant with his beer belly. He was not impressed, and said as a single woman with no prospects I should just shut the f*&^ up, and I was jealous cause Jane was married to him, and if I dressed more like Jane I could “get” myself a boyfriend... etc.... He was in a terrible sulking mood for the next few hours, constantly throwing jabs and insults my way. A few days later, I called Jane and jokingly asked if I was allowed to visit, or was John still upset with my comment about his weight. Jane seriously replied that he has in the past told her she could no longer hang out with certain friends of hers, but he had not said anything about me, but she would ask him if it was okay for me to come over. Jane does not go on and on as though she is a “victim”, its just every now and then she makes a comment about what John “allows” her to do. If anything, she is unaware and/or is in denial for the most part of the way in which her husband treats her. Jane does not complain or seek attention, and has not brought up the subject of leaving him recently, other than those 2 times a few months ago.

What brought me to looking into the possibility that there was something wrong with John, is that a few months ago, due to my medical problem, I started haemorrhaging at their house. John and Jane took me to the hospital. A few weeks ago, a mutual friend brought up that he had heard all about it from John, as he was making jokes and fun about how I was bleeding all over his car on the way to the hospital. I was mortified and embarrassed that such a personal matter was being used by John as “material” for a roomful of people at the local pub. I asked myself what kind of a person uses someone else’s intimate medical problems to get attention. In what strange mind would anyone consider this a way to get a laugh!? I have since learned that a lot of what I have said to Jane when John has been in the same room has been used in the same manner. After relaying this to my doctor, he suggested, as he could not obviously diagnose John, that is could be that he is an N. I have since googled NPD, and as they say, I am surprised not to find John’s picture there. The same is true with N Victim Syndrome, where Janes picture should be.

So since then I have been paying a bit more attention. If someone has a different opinion about music, a TV show, book etc than John....then he says they are stupid idiots, etc..... I can go on and on, but people on this site know the traits. I have been very careful NOT to confront John, and “play along”. I know now that if he sees me as a threat, he will forbid Jane from associating with me. Jane’s family live a few hours away, and John’s family (according to him) are a bunch of losers he does not associate with. A big part of me just wants to run and have no contact with him, but that would mean that I also would no longer be able to be friends with Jane. Hence my signing on here, looking for advice. Am I wrong, is Jane the N? Is John one, or just a jerk?

Hi LMJ

Thanks the background, however there is not enough there to determine if he has NPD.

I can see why you dislike him though. However there are always many reasons why people behave the way they do. He may simply have bad behaviour issues. His humour may be in bad taste, and perhaps he is more egotistic then others - but that doesn't make him an N.

You also mentioned that he berated her publicly - that isn't necessarily an N characterist (they are generally far more careful then that), but one I have observed used by N victims. There way of getting back - or merely their frustrations - keep in mind N's fire up their victims - and only if we are aware of it can we realise that the response is inappropriate. Also your friend dropping little hints but nothing constant is not unlike the manner in which a N would behave. They are the innocent ones remember. Mind you in this case neither may be N's. Perhaps just habits they have developed over so many years of marriage and raising children.

I can't call that shot - not a professional, and certainly not enough info. But I would think that neither can you and perhaps it is also not your place to make that call.

I appreciate as a friend you wish to support her - but I wonder if your getting a little too involved, and perhaps a little to interested in taking her away from this. Clearly you wish to be friends with her - but not him. That must be difficult for you. She has invested a lifetime with this man - and as all couples do we put up with some things of our partner which may not be acceptable to others - but its their issues and lifestyle. Perhaps there relationship is based on traditional home maker and bread winner scenario - and it appears wrong to you. That may however be fine for them.

My previous post was to highlight to you the other side of N - the passive side that perhaps your attracted to, and to be careful. However given your additional information all I can suggest for you is to do some reading on this site which has a great deal of information on the subject, and perhaps consider whether your friendship with this couple allows you the privelidge to get involved in these matters.

The above is all IMHO, based on your comments and my thoughts, without knowing the full circumstances, and each parties interests.

Forums and internet messaging can be challenging when one is trying to express themselves. In all honesty, I do not dislike John, nor do I wish to take him away from her, or see their marriage fail. Yes, I have concerns, and I am not happy about some of his actions, but I am not a busy-body with nothing else to do but invent problems where none exist. As I stated, I was shocked when she first informed me that she was considering leaving him. I am hoping that there is nothing seriously wrong with either of them, or their marriage. I am not taking it upon myself to intrude upon their relationship, and create problems. I posted on this site to seek advice anonymously, as I do not wish to create problems by discussing this with anyone that we mutually associate with that may result in a "gossip" type situation. I came here after reading many topics on this site, as well as many other sites dealing with NPD, among others. My hope was too see if anyone can relate to this problem, and if so, when they were in Jane's situation, how would they want/expect their friends to be supportive, without overstepping boundries. I am also on another forum, where the feedback has been relevant to this particular situation. Thank you again for your input. It helps to see the various views that others have.

Yes they can be challenging and I am only looking at one aspect of this - rather then to suggest any cures or give advice on what you are asking. As I stated earlier your original post lit up some lights for me but for different reasons the for what you were asking.

Also I was a little thrown off, by John forbidding his wife to have female friends, but doesn't seem to have this issue with you - although he has called you "a psycho bitch, a loser who cannot get a boyfriend etc".

Further you advised that you called him "a hypocrite, saying he looked about 6 months pregnant with his beer belly", and you have made a number of remarks re behaviour which you don't like about him. You seem quite keen for your friend to get away from this man. I summised from that you disliked him. So I am a little surprised you say you don't dislike him. That being the case I stand corrected on that presumption on my behalf.

I am not in a position to comment on how to support your friend - other then to do what most friends do - which is to listen. However I am sure others here can give you more assistance on that front.

LMJ223 wrote:How do I support her until/if she finally breaks free of him?

A big part of me just wants to run and have no contact with him, but that would mean that I also would no longer be able to be friends with Jane. Hence my signing on here, looking for advice.

1. You cannot rescue "Jane"; only "Jane" can rescue herself.
2. I think you should examine yourself to determine whether you really perceive "Jane" as a friend (an equal to you), or whether you have a tendency to form "friendships" with people to rescue.
3. When "Jane" complains about "John" to you, she is triangulating you into their relationship. This is not healthy for any one of the three of you. I recommend you tell "Jane" that the subject of "John" is off-limits.
4. If "John" makes you feel uncomfortable as a result of the way he treats you, others and "Jane," then tell "Jane" you can no longer have any contact with him for that reason.
5. If "Jane" tells you she cannot see you if you cut off contact with "John," then tell "Jane" you love her and you'll really miss her friendship. Then add that if she ever decides she wants to resolve her problems with "John," you'll be happy to direct her to some materials (e.g., this site, Sam Vaknin's site, other Internet sites, etc.).
6. The purpose for doing #s 3-5 is to set healthy boundaries for yourself. And perhaps "Jane" might also be inspired to set healthy boundaries for herself, using your example.

Am I wrong, is Jane the N? Is John one, or just a jerk?

Let "Jane" figure that out.

I hope you'll forgive me for being direct; I really do care and have your best interests at heart.

I'm a little late chiming in on this, but I have a comment about the idea that Ns behave in public, but not in private. I have to say that in my experience, I know this to be only a general rule (which I believe is what tired1 said) When the N is in the presence of people for whom he/she has disdain, or people from whom he/she does not get (or expect to get) adequate supply, the N will be more than happy to show his/her behind, with no thought of whether it makes him/her look bad. The N is showing comtempt and superiority both for his/her mate and his/her audience by behaving badly. They are simply not worth the effort of wearing a mask for. In addition, the stunned looks on their faces, or their attempts to maintain equilibrium in the face of the N's abuse has a lot of entertainment value for the N. So the N gets to openly show comtempt, be entertained by it, and confirm his/her superiority, all in one fell swoop. They get to see just how far they can push their audience. Now that's a good day's work!

I really do know how to spell "contempt" - please excuse the typos!