Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

PsychDoc66 · by **PsychDoc66** on Sat May 23, 2009 10:28 am

For many years, I often wondered why certain people managed to get "under my skin." Why were they in my head so well? Why was I so obsessed with them.

Then when I started researching hypnosis and taking a class in trauma, it all became crystal clear.

They dynamic is rather simple, but very powerful.

Ever wonder why they always want to keep us on edge? Because it is so easy to "program" us while we are in that state.

To understand this you need to understand how the mind works and what happens to our rational mind in stressful moments. When we are exposed to highly stressful events, be they physical, emotional or psychological something happens to us.

That part of our mind which deals with higher order thinking (IE rational thought, mathematics, critical thinking, reason, etc) shuts down. YOu might be able to recognize when it possibly happened to you in the past. There was a momentary feeling of euphoria, followed by an almost audible "pop" within your mind. Right afte this, you might feel extremely clear headed and or lighter. However, this is not a healthy place nor one which you mind wants to stay in. You are now in a more primal state where your "psyche" is highly vulnerable. This is a form of a trance state where your mind is highly suggestible.

In this moment, the abuser says or does something and it goes right into our subconcious minds. A statement such as "you are nothing without me" becomes a hypnotic suggestion. Our abusers keep us in this state on an unconcious level as they almost instinctually know that when we are in a truly rational state of mind where our higher order thinking skill are in place they cannot control us.

Over an over again, the instill us with fear, obligation and guilt by keeping us walking on eggshells and hypervigelent.

Once they are gone from our lives on a physical level and we are in recovery from their abuse, it takes a tremendous amount of work to release their "programing" from our minds.

How you might ask, does this process of programming work? Well in order to understand brainwashing you have to understand how our minds work. One part of our minds are made of up many schemas. Our schemas form our world views, biases, feelings of self, beliefs and even technical aspects of life. An example of a maladaptive schema would be "I am a failure". An example of a postive schema would be "I am a successful idividual". These thoughts are instilled in us as we grow up while our brains and minds are developing. This is why our parents or primary caregivers has such a profound impact on us, both positive and as those on this forum can attest to, quite negatively as well!

When our "concious mind" finally falls into place, either after abuse or when we finally are mature enough to have formed a good schema about the world, those things which were implanted there take root and become part of our personality.

So in summary, they traumatize you, part of your mind shuts off, they say something or things repeatedly and it goes right in. Your mind turns back on and you have become conditioned/programed by that abuser.

I used to have a voice in my head calling me a "f*ckn piece of sh*t! amongst other things. It was my sisters voice and one where she was screamig at me repeatedly. Just recently the pieces fell into place and I reclaimed my memories about her abuse of me, both physical and psychological. I used to have dreams of her coming at me with guns and wanting to kill me. She has repeatedly told me in a roundabout way that she is both jealous and hateful of me. She has more than once as an adult, insulted, put down, derided and outright been cruel to me. I now know that she is one of my abusers and indeed has the Histrionic PD in addition to a degree of N traits. Mommie did a wonderful job of carefully instilling things in her "golden child" I now no longer hear her voice or feel the fear from this wolf in sheeps clothing.

I have been around quite a few abusers and the tactics are always the same.

Getting them out of your head is another matter entirely. The first step is recognizing what happened. And also recognizing that it was never your fault or that you were directly responsible for their behavior.

It takes time to get their "thoughts" out of your head, be patient and kind to yourself durring the time of healing.

One powerful tool of healing is called mindfullness. It is a cognitive therapy method and has its origins in Zen meditation. I will post some more on it later.

Be well, their "brainwashing" can and will be "bleached" out of your mind sooner or later and you will be more than back to normal. You will become stronger because of it.

magnum · by **magnum** on Sat May 23, 2009 10:54 am

You've wrote alot of good stuff, I will keep referring to.

I am interested in the mindfulness you talk about. I have days that come like waves and then torrid waves, like tsunami type thoughts. I think my episodes can be hormonal too.

I worry my sisters dislike of me will never leave my mind and then my mothers dissapproval of my not having relations with my sister.
As toxic as those two are, I have been poisoned, cause irrattional as they are, am ashamed to admit, I feel not good enough, and that sounds sick, cause they really have no respect or boundaries.

I would love some insights like mindfulness to ride this tsunami of emotions.

by **defender** on Sat May 23, 2009 10:55 am

So I'm having a nice productive day around the house. He is sleeping, out of the peace, he throws something heavy into the door to slam it shut. Sounds like a gunshot. With his history of tearing up doors, I run to find out what his problem is. He intensifies things by claiming he only closed the door, while I'm looking it over for damage. I'm not in the mood, so I calmly state that if he is going to do things like this, he will not be able to stay here in my home. At this point he's already screaming back at me that HE SAID HE ONLY SHUT THE DOOR, GET OUT OF HERE YOU F"N COKE W***E, YOU'RE AN UNNECESSARY PERSON, YOU'RE JUST LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO B***H ABOUT!!!!!

I left the room, sat down, determined I would sleep on the couch that night and I did. I thought it over, why am I killing myself for this jerk? He shows no appreciation, he keeps everyone miserable around here. I do not deserve these comments or this treatment. In fact, I would say in reality he is the unnecessary person, looking for someting to b***h about.

What should have happened, I was already stressed out, so she slammed the door to get the eggshells going and knots in the stomach cranking. During that time, being called unnecessary and coke w***e, were supposed to sink in? I was also supposed to just accept that he only shut the door, I imagined that he slammed it.

Maybe that is why I am a bit better off, I always went off and sorted out what exactly took place. Couldn't make much sense of his motives but I could get clear on who did and caused what. He was however training me not to bring it up afterwards, of suffer more.

My next question is this, if that is how they get in so deep, how do they pick and choose which ones of us to grab on to as a host? So they do it by what is there to be gained? Do they do it by attraction? Do they look for our weaknesses to see if they can be effective with this stress and program method?

Echo · by **Echo** on Sat May 23, 2009 11:04 am

That part of our mind which deals with higher order thinking (IE rational thought, mathematics, critical thinking, reason, etc) shuts down. YOu might be able to recognize when it possibly happened to you in the past. There was a momentary feeling of euphoria, followed by an almost audible "pop" within your mind. Right afte this, you might feel extremely clear headed and or lighter. However, this is not a healthy place nor one which you mind wants to stay in. You are now in a more primal state where your "psyche" is highly vulnerable. This is a form of a trance state where your mind is highly suggestible.

Thank you PsychDoc, Very interesting post.

I've actually had this happen to me at the worst times of trauma, I recognise the clear headedness that comes after the acute fear where the mind clears....thing for me is that it actually helped me in survival. I was able to clearly say things that stopped the abuse in its tracks - enough for me to escape the insanity of the moment.

PsychDoc66 · by **PsychDoc66** on Sat May 23, 2009 11:18 am

Hi Echo,

Thanks, you actually completed something I forgot to put into my post. This "shutting down" is actually a survival mechanism. It is meant to alow our "instincts" to kick in so that we can get away from danger. Too much thought in times of danger can lead to becoming dead. Acting, or rather survival reactions can and do saves lives.

The thing with abusers, we don't even know we are fighting for our survival, its usually so covert.

Echo · by **Echo** on Sat May 23, 2009 11:22 am

Thanks, you actually completed something I forgot to put into my post. This "shutting down" is actually a survival mechanism. It is meant to alow our "instincts" to kick in so that we can get away from danger. Too much thought in times of danger can lead to becoming dead. Acting, or rather survival reactions can and do saves lives.

The thing with abusers, we don't even know we are fighting for our survival, its usually so covert.

It makes alot of sense to me PsychDoc, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

PsychDoc66 · by **PsychDoc66** on Sat May 23, 2009 11:30 am

Hi Defender,

I wish I had an answer for your question. I suspect that part of how they get victims is by the ones which are attracted to them the most. We see the "image" and fall in love with that which is so attractive. I think that a very astute individual will be aware when they are interacting with people that they cannot ultimately trust. So they quickly back away. To the unaware, we become entranced like the moth so attracted to the flame. At least this is what happened with me in regards to my abusive relationship. I fell in love with the image, and got sucked in.

I think that you probably hit on the most reasonable answer, the law of attraction. They don't choose their victim, their victim chooses them. Still we cannot blame ourselves for falling into a trap, it was set long before we came along and they instinctually know what they are doing. And they have done it so often that it is now second nature to them.

They have masterd that image, that lie, that deception that it is so hard to see the reality underneath the illusion. I do not think that the N even knows what they are ultimately doing anymore. Be it biological, genetic, learned or conditioned does not matter at this point, it is now part of their disordered personality.

anitya · by **anitya** on Sat May 23, 2009 11:52 am

PsychDoc66 wrote:Once they are gone from our lives on a physical level and we are in recovery from their abuse, it takes a tremendous amount of work to release their "programing" from our minds.

It takes time to get their "thoughts" out of your head, be patient and kind to yourself durring the time of healing.

Be well, their "brainwashing" can and will be "bleached" out of your mind sooner or later and you will be more than back to normal. You will become stronger because of it.

PsychDoc, thanks, excellent timing for me. I had bad dreams last night and am in a bad way again today. People I talk to aren't getting it that I've been brainwashed, in a way. They think I'm fussing after a normal breakup, but something he did latched on to something inside my head already (Psycho Dad) and he somehow did everything 'right' to turn me back into the terrified little girl. I'm walking around the house today like a 6 year old instead of a middle aged woman.

This is tiring stuff.

PsychDoc66 · by **PsychDoc66** on Sat May 23, 2009 11:58 am

magnum wrote:I am interested in the mindfulness you talk about. I have days that come like waves and then torrid waves, like tsunami type thoughts. I think my episodes can be hormonal too.

I would love some insights like mindfulness to ride this tsunami of emotions.

When I was learning about mindfullness in my Cognitive Behavioral Class, we had a appropos metaphor for it. That metaphor is the sea.

At first when exploring mindfullness we are wading in the shallow waters, eploring feelings and thoughts. The deeper waters contain those feelings and thoughts where things like depression lie. Like the ocean, mindfullness can contain and hold onto those feelings. It holds all things in its vastness, both good and bad.

When first learning about mindfullness and using it to work with emotions, sometimes it is good to remind yourself that there are beautiful things in life as well. When you face a "tidal wave" of emotions that can sometimes be "overwhelming" it is best to take a step back and remember good things. Feeling the unconditional love of a wonderous animal companion. But most importantly it is being able to just allow yourself the freedom to experience the emotion in its fullest. The more you can do that the more it looses its power and strength. The more you have "wraped" your mind around the emotion and experience the more you "encapsulate" it and put it into perspective. In a sense you have taken yourself out of the emotionally charged event and you are able to view it in a more neutral objective way.

I had an interesting experience using mindfullness. And it it goes along the lines of the ocean. I was going through some traumatic feelings and memories regarding my family. Little by little I let the feelings come, when I was fully imersed in them. I all of a sudden realized that I was in the ocean and that I was not the ocean. So I was able to swim to shore and leave the ocean behind. I was able to "ride" the waves and swim with the emotions not against them. The more I did this, the less power these feelings had over my mind. I had become more aware and in doing so, the thoughts and feelings lessened their strength over me.

I also used my healing time in a very postive way as well, I have also allowed myself to experience the full range of pleasurable feelings we also have. It helped to counteract the negative feelings and give me some strength. Yep guilt came up but I let myself feel it for what it was, it quickly diminished as I moved through it. So I was able to enjoy a good pleasurable breakfast of a bagel and salmon and a couple of glasses of champange! So simple yet so profound.

Take mindfullness one step at a time. Especially when dealing with uncomfortable feelings. If it feels like too much, slow down and take a step back, and do something nice for yourself. You pushed a boundary and learned something about yourself. The thing is, you don't want to push those boundaries too much in the begining.

Sometimes just sitting with a feeling for 5 minutes is more than enough. Don't try to sit with it any longer than you can. but push it slowly little by little, work up to 1/2 an hour especially when dealing with things like depression, anxiety, fear or guilt.

I hope this helps!

A good place to start learning learning about mindfullness directly but in a very simple but effective application is through meditation. A simple focused breath meditation does wonders across the board. Start out with just a few minutes and work up to 1/2 an hour and if you feel like it to an hour. It does wonders for me and helps me manage my own feelings and I always come out of the meditation feeling rested.

Echo · by **Echo** on Sat May 23, 2009 12:10 pm

This is fantastically helpful PsychDoc, again thanks, Id like to archive this thread when it is done if that is OK with you?

One thing I want to add for Defender is to remember that Ps and Ns are extremely skilled observers. What they lack in indepth social skills they make up for observationally. They can, and do spend alot of time planning and plotting about a "target". They are also capable of spending lots of time just watching the "target", noting things as small as how someone likes to stand, how they eat, how they walk, how they talk......

They know what they are looking for, be it attraction, weaknesses, vulnerabilities, whatever, and when they identify someone that they want, then they will move.

They also throw out "clues", they will often inject something confusing, or offensive, say a compliment with a putdown on the end of it, into their initial charm offensive. If the "target" misses it, or accepts it, then they can gauge their chances.

It really is mind-boggling stuff. But chances are if we are the victim of an N or P then we have been chosen and like PsychDoc says, who wouldnt respond to a charm offensive of such magnitude that Ps and Ns give forward - so we "choose" them back - and the nightmare begins.

These relationships really arent like normal breakups - its like being in Alice in Wonderland, or the dear old Wizard of Oz. Nothing is as it seems, nothing is normal, and the ground under our feet goes from solid to non-existent.

superclerk3 · by **superclerk3** on Sat May 23, 2009 12:47 pm

I highly suggest looking for a local meditation class - whether it be through your counselling center (the ones my EAP uses offer it) or through a local Buddhist group. A book that has helped me a great deal is "The Joy of Living" by Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche. I actually picked this up at the bookstore because I saw the title and thought "I need to learn how to enjoy life again." I was still going through a lot of suffering and depression because of my N at that time. The book changed my life, led me on to other things (meditation and Buddhism) and I am finally, albeit slowly, starting to come out of the fog that has had me trapped and drowning for over a year now. I still work for my N. (In this economy I have no choice at the moment.) Every single day is a struggle for me but mindfulness and meditation have helped me a great deal during the workday and any time I start having uncontrolled thoughts about my experience with the N. (Buddhism need not be part of practicing these helpful resources, it was simply the path that I took - the majority of the people in my Buddhist meditation class are NOT Buddhist!) It changes the way I look at things, it helps me to control my thoughts and emotions (and we all know that an N can send those into a tailspin at the drop of a hat) and it showed me the relationship between attachment and suffering so that I could begin to break that attachment.

Just a suggestion that has helped me....

by **defender** on Sat May 23, 2009 1:02 pm

Thanks PsychDoc

One thing I want to add for Defender is to remember that Ps and Ns are extremely skilled observers. What they lack in indepth social skills they make up for observationally. They can, and do spend alot of time planning and plotting about a "target". They are also capable of spending lots of time just watching the "target", noting things as small as how someone likes to stand, how they eat, how they walk, how they talk......

Through all of this, people noticed that he was always very quiet and watching everything. People said it gave them the creeps because they couldn't get a read on him.

They also throw out "clues", they will often inject something confusing, or offensive, say a compliment with a putdown on the end of it, into their initial charm offensive. If the "target" misses it, or accepts it, then they can gauge their chances.

I certainly see those in retrospect, in fact it was a few instances of those type things that I never really did get past. I would bring them up when not liking something else he was doing as character flaws HE told me about.

Thanks Echo

louxloux · by **louxloux** on Sat May 23, 2009 5:37 pm

Hi PsychDoc,

GREAT info - thanks so much for writing and explaining all of that to the forum!

Some time back, I wrote out an analogy, or explanation from a Neuro-physiological stand point. Thought I would add it to your thread, as the two work in compliment to one another, rather than contrast:

I feel like, that our 'physiological' response to them (the N) often impedes our healing... at least at first b/c we don't understand or even realize what's going on within our own body. By Physiological I mean and equate it with the same or similar sense of addiction (regarding the chemical responses of our body, and in these situations in particular - chemical alterations that occur in the brain, or even more specifically, the 'pleasure seeking' areas of our brain - the nucleus accumbens, the ventral tegmental area and the hippocampus. Link to more info re: the brain response: http://thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/i/i_03/ ... r_par.html ).

Early on in the r/s - we get an unbelievable high from the pedastle (sp?) they put us up on; the positive attention and feedback; promises; and the ideals/values/belief system that they mirror back to us = when they idealize us and make us feel like the only woman on earth; like the best thing that ever happened to them, their dream come true. In such a state, our brain naturally releases endorphins, dopamine, serotonin, etc... the 'happy' chemicals. Those chemicals are EASY to love; and therefore easy to want to 'get back to' (i.e. we continue to try to find ways to get back to that state - much like a cocaine addict is always wanting to get back to that initial 'perfect' high).

THEN we have a VERY intense emotional/psychological injury with the D&D that also leaves an deep impression on our psyche. This sparks anxiety, depression and triggers bizarre behavior and reactions from us that we don't even recognize or understand. Anxiety and depression, I feel, is the "fog" that prevents us from 'seeing the forest for the trees' - that keeps our focus on them and off of our own recovery. Eventually (for some), anxiety/depression lifts and you do FINALLY begin to see that they are not 'normal' or 'healthy' in any way - and that they actually have some pattern of behavior that backs this up (even if anxiety or depression doesn't 'lift' you can rationally understand those things; but you can't fully process them, or the 'big picture'). It's easy to get caught up in shame and self-depreciating self-talk like "how did I not see it?" It is very easy to get caught up in a very negative, debilitating cycle of self abuse if you're not careful. Those that are 'stuck' in obsessive thinking and can't progress most likely are having anxiety/depression that is not being properly treated. I personally do not feel that a person can really 'move on' if they are experiencing anxiety and/or depression... as these are physiological states as well (both alter brain chemicals - decreased serotonin and/or dopamine to brain receptors) and have a direct effect on a person's ability to focus; they contribute to 'cognitive distortions'; they make us feel 'helpless'; they cause many to withdraw and internalize.

Once you come out of the fog, there's STILL the temptation (for some) to info-seek (been there, done that). This is where the physiological /addiction kind of comes in. Whether we realize it or not... we became addicted (at some point) to the way they made us feel during the idealization phase (those endorphins, dopamine, serotonin 'happy feeling' chemicals). A part of us longs to feel that way again. Even though we may have come a long way, progressed alot, developed more positive/healthy self-esteem, have recovered a good bit from the injury and KNOW these people are toxic - that 'longing' kinda 'sticks' with us .... and for a while (and/or most recently) those feelings were strongly associated/paired with the N (pre-D&D). BUT each time we N-Dip, it's a reminder of the injury. All of a sudden, it makes you feel like - even though you've taken 6 steps forward - with that one N-Dip it can feel like you've regressed 2, 3, or more steps (depending on how intense, anxious and compulsive the info seeking was). You feel like crap again, blaming yourself, beating yourself up for it, etc... NOT WORTH IT. When you feel that nostalgic 'longing' - THAT's when we need to learn to re-direct that into positive/productive energy; honing our mate-selection skills instead of N-dipping which is counter-productive.

The kicker is... we don't even realize all of this is going on internally within us. We may THINK that because we are healthier and stronger emotionally now - that we can 'handle' any bits of new info re: N. THESE PEOPLE HURT US ON A VERY DEEP LEVEL. There will ALWAYS be some sort of reaction (hopefully and/or someday, indifference - which is STILL a reaction).

Generally speaking, "happy feelings" greatly outweigh "bad" ones. I mean, honestly... who WANTS to feel bad? Only a sadist (or is it masochist) seeks out painful events. With time, space and NC - those negative effects of the N-induced PTSD subside to a great degree. Although we can think back and remember how horrific it felt during that time, we don't really 'hang on' to those horrific feelings like we do the 'happy feelings' (nor do we seek out the horrific feelings like we do the happy ones, but when you N-Dip it is a PERMANENT by-product ... something that, I think we have to learn and N-Dipping does just that - it teaches us these people are very harmful to our psyche, our spirit, health and wellbeing). Hopefully... eventually, the negative effects will take over after being paired with the N - so that whenever we see or hear of them, we don't feel those 'good' feelings anymore; but rather the toxic feelings that KEEP US AWAY from them.

We hang on to good feelings, and memories that evoke those good feelings in everything - not just with the N's. When loved one's pass away ... do you remember or hold on to all the things they did 'wrong'?? no... you remember, usually, the things they did right - unless they were an utterly horrible person, in which case, when you learned they passed, you might give them thought for a few minutes and then move on with life. Someone who was truly 'good' makes a deep impression in your life. We hold on to the GOOD. It's harder to let go of than the bad - which is why i think sooooooo many of us put up with such bad behavior from the N's before opting out.... we keep enduring the bad BECAUSE of the memory of the few, sporadic/intermittent 'goods' they did that made us feel great. Those 'goods' are usually intense too - I remember actually feeling butterflies with some of the things exN told me. Intensity plays a very significant role in the addiction.

I am reminded of learning 'conditioned learning' in Psychology back in college. You pair and object (in our case the N - how great to think of THEM as the object for a change, LOL)... anyway, you pair an object with a strong positive feeling or 'reward' - and you eventually learn to feel that feeling each and every time you see that object (or anticipate the 'reward'). Initially, you need the consistent pairing to solidify the conditioned learning (meaning the reward and object MUST consistently be seen or experienced 'together' in order to make the association) - but later, it is actually STRENGTHENED if it is not consistent, but rather periodic and intense. --- interestingly enough, this latter portion is very similar principle used in SLOT MACHINES / gambling addiction. If you didn't get some reward every so often, no one would play... there would be no addiction to gambling b/c there would be no 'gamble' - you'd simply just be giving your money away with no expected or given reward.

love to all,

loux

Corpse Bride · by **Corpse Bride** on Sun May 24, 2009 12:44 am

Great stuff psychDoc - Thanks so much for sharing - actually clarifies some things for me. It's weird cause I had been working with xN for almost 7 years and he kept it professional until he knew I was in a state of total disrepair (due to some personal issues) then he made his moves...

In my case he didn't actually create the intial stress before the brain washing started - he did however through me off balance after we got together and made my previous issues go away by installing new ones - Oh he was good!

Great idea about archiving this Echo!

PsychDoc66 · by **PsychDoc66** on Sun May 24, 2009 12:57 am

Hello Echo,

Yes please feel free to archive this. I believe that solid information which helps should be available to all!

by **defender** on Sun May 24, 2009 8:02 am

Thanks louxloux!

And he was so worried about my non-existent cocaine problem. He didn't want it to get in the way of what he was doing. HA!

Good read, I understand some things better.

cooks · by **cooks** on Sun May 24, 2009 11:01 am

Hi, I really like that posting using the sea as a metaphor, it brought to mind a lovely sentence from the reading for May 10 from a little book called "Meditations for Women living with Divorce and Separation" headed "Loneliness/Discovering" and I quote in part:

"When we float in our loneliness, we're likely to get water in our face. We might feel like we're drowning in our loneliness. We might attempt to fight the current, to exhaust ourselves trying to swim away from our loneliness. Our last instinct is to lay back, let the water support us, and look around us at our loneliness.
And we'd better do it or we really are going to drown. We can feel ourselves flailing and failing, sinking. Or we can lay back and discover what it feels like to float. Feel our bodies, get to know what and who the water of our loneliness is supporting. Feel our hearts still beating in the loneliness. Feel our emotions. They are our guides.
Adrift in my loneliness I discover the boundaries and shores of me."

I have being practising this creative visualisation when overwhelmed by loneliness after each rejection that the N tormentor that I am trying to get out of my life does to me. It has helped me accept the loneliness and not fight it, either with making contact with N or resorting to anti-anxiety medication. This N tormentor came into my life through a dating website after the traumatic and sudden breakdown of what I thought was a happy 16 yr marriage. I have had 4 months of extreme highs and extreme lows with N, initially recognising it as a distraction from my original pain, but now seeing it as something far more sinister. Mind games in a nutshell. Since I have become aware of this, something has shifted in my brain, and I am starting to detach, albeit it very slowly with lots of backward steps along the way.

Thanks for such a wonderful Support Group and to all you lovely people, it's the lovely people like us that make the world such a special place.
Let's all remember that.

Aisha · by **Aisha** on Sun May 24, 2009 1:09 pm

Many many thanks PsychDoc, I'm in a real deep dark lonely place today and struggling to find my way out but having read your posts, and others comments, I can see a bit of light somewhere ahead.

Echo · by **Echo** on Sun May 24, 2009 1:10 pm

Loux, Fabulous addition to the thread....thank you!

PsychDoc, Thanks, will do it now...keep em coming :)

Cooks, Welcome and thanks for your imput...heres to healing for everyone!

EDIT: Ive added this thread to the Learning about Narcissism resource, its still open, so anyone can contribute.

louxloux · by **louxloux** on Sun May 24, 2009 10:59 pm

Hey PsychDoc,

I remember reading something about how abusive words and treatment 'stick' during trance states before... couldn't remember exactly where, but remembered today. I found the article, and wanted to add it to your thread b/c it reinforces EVERYTHING you wrote:

THURSDAY, JANUARY 3, 2008

AM I UNDER HIS "SPELL"?

Time and again women allude to the mystical aspects of the pathological they are involved with. They describe it as "being under his spell," "entranced with him" or "hypnotized by him" even "spell bound" or "mind controlled."

Women aren't exactly able to define what they are 'experiencing' or even accurately describe what they think is occurring but they do unanimously conclude that 'something' is happening that feels like it's hypnotic.

Beyond the 'hokus pokus' of hypnosis lies real truth about what IS probably happening in those relationships.

Trance happens to every person every day. It is a natural lull in the body when many of the systems are resting or when we are tired.

You've heard of 'Highway Hypnosis' when you have been driving and are so concentrating on the driving or getting sleepy while driving and watching those yellow lines that you forgot about the last few miles and all of a sudden you're aware you're almost at your destination? That's trance or light forms of hypnosis. No one put you in it -- you went in it on your own.

Check in with most people around 2 p.m. in the afternoon and you'll see lots of people in sleepy trances.

Pathological love relationships are exhausting and take their toll on your body through stress, diet, loss of sleep, and worry. While you are worn down and fatigued you are more suggestible to the kinds of things that are said to you in that state of mind. These things sink in at a deeper level.

If he is telling you that you are crazy, or you didn't see him do what you think he did, or that the problems of the relationship are because of you...those statements said to you when you are suggestible stay put in your subconscious.

If he tells you positives when you are in trance states such as "He needs you and please don't ever leave him" -- those phrases too are stored in a subconscious location working you over without your knowledge. When it's time to redirect your beliefs about him, disengage, or break up women feel like 'old tapes' are running in their heads. And they could be right about that!

Women who are high in suggestibility and fatiguability are more at risk of trance-like states in which words, meanings, and symbols are more concretely stored in the subconscious.

You aren't crazy---it really DOES feel like you are under his spell!

SOURCE: http://howtospotadangerousman.blogspot. ... spell.html

THURSDAY, JANUARY 10, 2008

AM I "UNDER HIS SPELL"? - PART II

We started to talk about the very REAL issue of trance in relationship with pathologicals in the last post.

Women feel 'under his spell,' 'spell bound,' ' mesmerized,' 'hypnotized,' 'spaced out,' 'not in control of their own thoughts....' All of these are ways of saying that various levels of covert and subtle mind-control have been happening with the pathological. And why wouldn't it be happening? These are power-hungry people who live to exert their dominance over others.

That includes your body, mind or spirit. Mind Control techniques are used on prisoners of war, in cults, and in hostage taking. It obviously works or there wouldn't be 'techniques' and bad people wouldn't use it.

Mind control, brain washing, coersion...are all words for the same principles that are used to produce the results of reducing your own effectiveness and being emotionally overtaken by someone intent on doing so.
•Perceived threat to one's physical or psychological survival and the belief that the captor/perpetrator would carry out the threat.

•Perceived small kindness from the captor/perpetrator to the captive.

•Isolation from perspectives other than those of the captor/perpetrator.

•Perceived inability to escape.
Mind control then produces dissociation which is a form of trance states. It's when your mind becomes overloaded and you need to 'step outside of yourself' to relieve the stress. Dissociation and trance happens during abuse in childhood as well or adult rape. Prolonged mind control in adults will even produce trance states where adults begin to feel like they are being controlled. And they are...

Treatment and recovery for mind control includes:
* Breaking the Isolation - Help the client identify sources of supportive intervention; Self-help groups or group therapy (group needs to be homogeneous to needs), also hot lines, crisis centers, shelters and friends.

* Identifiying Violence - As victims in abusive relationships minimize the abuse, or are in so much denial it may be necessary to ask directly about the different types of violent behavior. Many woman (and children) are confused about what is acceptable male (parental / authority) behavior. Journal keeping, autobiographical writing, reading of first hand accounts or seeing films that deal with abuse may be helpful to clients.

* Perceived Kindness - Encourage the client to develop alternative sources of nurturance and caring other than the captor/perpetrator.

* Validating both Love and Terror - Helping the client integrate both disassociated 'sides' of the abuser, will assist her in giving up her dream-like state in how she sees him.
Next week, we'll continue our discussion on other forms of trance states and spell bound conditions.

SOURCE: http://howtospotadangerousman.blogspot. ... rt-ii.html

THURSDAY, JANUARY 17, 2008

AM I "UNDER HIS SPELL"? - Part III

The past two weeks we have been talking about trance states, dissociation, hypnotic suggestion, mind control... all ways the pathological controls your mind, thoughts, feelings, and ultimately your behavior.

This is not hocus pocus stuff. Trance states, dissociation and hypnosis are all normal parts of the way our body and minds respond to certain conditions. The only argument is if these pathologicals KNOW they are doing it to others! My answer would be yes: they are masters at noticing what works on other people. So to that degree, they tweak what works.

Additionally, many of you may be aware of the seminars, books, websites and now TV shows about 'seduction' and the techniques that are taught men about coming in under the radar in seducing women through hypnotic methods. My guess is that the pathologicals are teaching their findings to others... passing on the horrid knowledge of their own disorders and how to covertly attract women subconsciously into sexual relationships. Appaulling? You bet. Just one more big WAKE UP CALL to women -- pay attention and guard your minds.

Trance, mind control and hypnotic suggestion also are based on one's own level of 'suggestibility'. This is related to how responsive you are to the suggestions and opinions of others. The more responsive you are, the more suggestible and more easily you are mind controlled or hypnotizible.

A women's suggestibility is often influenced by her own biology. Women who are highly cooperative and value how others perceive them are likely to be more suggestible.
Also, women's fatiguability highly influences her suggestibility.

Almost all women report high levels of emotional, physical, sexual, financial, and spiritual fatigue with pathological relationships. They take a toll on her -- wearing her down until her emotional reserves that would normally not give in, are repressed.

At that time when her fatigue level is high, her suggestibility is also high. Tired and spaced out, it's easy to get controlled by him.

Messages that are told to her during tired and spaced out times are recorded deeply and yet often subconsciously. "Can't get him out of your head?" is very real.

The women who participated in our research survey on 'women who love psychopaths' showed us just how suspectible you group of women really are to sugggestibility, fatiguibilty, and the resulting mind control. Almost all of the women experienced some form of trance, hypnosis, mind control of 'spell bound' symptoms.

Women must understand that 'staying in the relationship to figure it out' or 'see what happens' or 'wait til he works on himself and gets better' is absolutely risky for you. Your ability to be controlled covertly by him is significantly higher than other females.

Until women really understand their 'at risk' temperament traits and how they affect her choices in relationships and TOLERANCE in relationships, she remains significantly likely to either not leave or pick the same way the next time around...

Ladies, hope and healing are available. For the first time, we really UNDERSTAND the dynamics involved in what you have lived through. The research has opened up incredible insights into your temperament and your relationship dynamics. Now specific and uniquely targeted treatment can begin! Please, let The Institute be part of your recovery!

SOURCE: http://howtospotadangerousman.blogspot. ... bel/trance

GREAT thread!

carrie4 · by **carrie4** on Mon May 25, 2009 10:07 pm

QUOTE FORM PSYCHDOC:
"Ever wonder why they always want to keep us on edge? Because it is so easy to "program" us while we are in that state."

Keeping us "on edge" -- yes -- I never thought of it like that. All I remember of my youth was being kept on edge by my dad, in fact. The tyrant kept my mom and sister always on edge, and the house was always this ridiculously (inexplicably) tense place.

And if you did start to relax or feel contented in his company, he'd make sure to get you back to feeling tense. I remember once when I was around high school age, the tyrant yelled at me in such a vicious, angry (and loud) way because I didn't put enough ice cubes in his glass. He acted as though I put poison in it. At the time, I just accepted the behavior as the way it is, but it did confuse me because I could never figure if it was a quirk, or maybe something worse, that it WAS me. Now I see it as pure manipulation. I'm angry now, but I should have been more angry then. Unfortunately, there was no Internet back then, no place for validation.

It's a big RED FLAG to anyone who keeps you on edge.

lyndaquelinda · by **lyndaquelinda** on Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:03 pm

These posts are all great. Very informative. I saw myself all over them. I too had an N father who kept our household on edge all the time. His anger had a hair trigger. I can think of alot of events but I don't really remember what I ever did to cause his to explode. I have in my adult life had a 17 year relationship with an N and the next 3 year relationship that I am now ending was with an N. I knew that I saw my father in both of them. What I did not realize was that they were all Ns. I did not even know the definition until last week. I feel so blessed that I found this site. I think it may just save my life.

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