Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Nolongerhisvictim · Joined: 10 Feb 2007 Posts: 1380

JJL,
Don't feel sorry for them...they view this as a sign of weakness. I learned this in my own personal experience and from a P who used to post on this site (actually the old msn one). If they view something as a sign of weakness in you, the destruction they dish out to you will be unbelievable!

I do want to illustrate a point to you using pit bull dogs as an example. (no offense intended to those who have/love these dogs and have raised them with love). If a pitbull, who is bred to fight, harm, and even kill another animal harmed your pet or, worse yet, your child would you be looking for compassion, understanding, and even forgiveness toward that animal? Or would you want the animal destroyed (or in the case of the P, locked up) so it couldn't harm anyone or anything you love again?

Save your empathy for someone who deserves it...they don't care if you love them or hate them, forgive them or not forgive them, understand them or not understand. I would encourage you not to waste your time or energy on someone who doesn't want it or doesn't care.

My best advice I can give you is to accept what has happened to you...that does not mean you have to like it or condone it...it just means that you realize that you cannot change it and there is no sense in holding on to it, like excess baggage. Let it go, if not for any reason other than lightening your burden, and start building a new life for yourself and your child.

Best wishes for you and your child,

NLHV
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NLHV

Cookie2 · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1403

I couldnt have said it any better Razz

We've had members here who get into the forgivness thing..because it's something we do for ourselves...not for someone else....I say if someone wants to forgive a p GO FOR IT...I would NEVER EVER let a p know if I did...Like nolonger says...they see it as weakness and all hell will break loose....Meanwhile you are thinking you did a wonderfull thing and the p is planning their next evil move on you and your reputation....Does it really matter if it is in their genes or not? They are still abusers...still jerks...still a**holes....You learn to stay clear of anyone like that....genes or no genes....I sure don't want them around me Laughing

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I have a photographic memory....I just don't have same day service.....................Cookie

BloomingintheSON · Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 345

Echo · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject:

Hi JJL, Thanks for you post. This is a question that comes up reasonably often, and we usually all have different opinions on it, which is great because it will give you plenty of info Wink

NLHV wrote a great post which I am in full agreement with. My own opinions on what makes a P are a bit different to yours. I think that its both genetics and/or background. In my old work I had dealings with several psychopathic people, and their backgrounds all revealed similar issues - so thats what makes up the basis of my opinion.

The thing for me is this. Just because they are disordered doesnt mean they dont fully understand the consequences of their actions. They do - they just dont care. They can help it, they do know right from wrong. They aren't mad, and they aren't mentally ill - they are disordered. They have a fractured personality - but they still process thoughts in the same way as us - its just that the thoughts are different Confused

They actively choose "wrong" because it makes them feel more powerful. They do know they are causing pain, they just dont worry about it, because what they get out of it is so sustaining for them.

For me, the best thing to do is accept that the responsibility for his behaviour lies solely with him(even though he would never accept that - you still need to know that for sure) and move on and take care of yourself and family.

He's a lost cause. You aren't. You have a future with endless possibilities for you and yours. Dont worry yourself about forgiving him or not - concentrate on getting him out of your life and head. Take care now, Laughing

Echo.

Shania · Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 3

I think its just part of the process for many of us. I remember feeling sorry for mine towards the end during the period of time where I was detaching from him inside.

I felt bad for him, his childhood, I was there for him more then anyone even a relative. Yes my amount of time with him was about as long as any relative spent in his life. He was abused, molested, you name it.

But so are many others in the world, we all want to slap a label on things being genetic and "They cant help it" no personal responsibility.

I dont care if its genetic, if a person has a gene that causes them to mistreat, then they still require help and they can still abuse and it should not be excused. If a person has to be locked up, medicated, etc etc, then so be it. But we do not have to be a doormat to it.

Not all people who have been abused, grow up and abuse, so we cant always use that excuse... Take Oprah Winfrey if you want a story of a woman abused as a child, she suffered too, or take Dave Peltzer who wrote A Child Called It who was terribly abused as a child and now is a book author and speaker....

I dont think its forgiveness you are speaking of. Forgiveness means you personally letting go, it does not mean you will never remember or that there wont be a scar and that you dont use wisdom.

Its probably more of denial, not wanting to accept that a person actually chooses to do such things or behave a certain way, we dont want to believe people can be so cruel, but yes there are evil people out there.

wahela11 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 182 Location: Iowa

Well, nobody blames a tornado, a hurricane, a flood. But we get as far from those things as we can. "Gosh darn tornado, how dare he take away my house?" Tornados, pit bulls, N's. They may be ruinous, and its probably not their fault (if we believe genetics and environment are what make them what they are) but its up to us to maintain our safety in this world.

NPs blame everything on everybody else. It s not their fault. That's their safety and security. They don't, I don't believe, do it intentionally, to damage us and everybody else, and I believe they do it to maintain themselves. But if a guy walked into your house every day and hit you over the head with a bat, would you let him back in tomorrow? If you would, you are an excellent victim. We accept bad behavior as long as it doesn't involve a bat.

I personally believe that forgiving (maybe a better word would be "accepting the way it was") is for us. Not for them. They don't believe they did anything wrong anyway. But for us, we can turn and walk away without guilt or pain. Once you can accept what they did, why and how, its time to spend the time on yourself, learning and healing yourself, so that you don't do this again. WE all have reasons why we were so needy and lonely that we'd accept this kind of behavior. so the best thing to do is work on yourself.

Take care.

wahela
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Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, each time, hoping for a different ending

BloomingintheSON · Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 345

nolongertrusting · Joined: 25 Feb 2007 Posts: 275

JJL, I believe they know full good and well they know what they're doing. I also believe that they know its wrong, but they simply don't care. I've read so many posts "what losers they are" and a good many of them can't hold a job or want to hold a job. Lie and theive their way through.

No need to forgive them. Mostly forgive yourself.

Nolonger.

artichokeheart · Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject:

The night I left my husband (the first time of two...) he was acting crazy, throwing and breaking things, choking me, threatening me. I was nine months pregnant and literally believed that this was going to be it, this was going to be the time he went too far, accidentally or on purpose, and killed me. When I had the chance, I locked myself in the bathroom with my cell phone and called my father for help. In the ten minutes it took for him and my mother to get to the house my husband trashed the house, tried to knock the door down, etc... When my parents showed up it was an instant transformation. He stopped raging and started crying, saying he was sorry, he was sick, he needed help, please don't leave, the whole nine yards. It was so convincing my mother sat there in our living room and cried, cried for the man who had left her pregnant daughter bruised and bloody. But I had finally had it, I told him I was leaving. And he made a big production of going to the door, asked me for "one last kiss" and when I walked over to him he whispered in a voice that only I could hear... "Fuck you".
They ABSOLUTELY know what they are doing. I don't know the specifics of your situation, but I'm willing to bet her never hit you in public... Why wouldn't he if he didn't understand that hitting you was wrong? These people lack empathy, that's it. They're not morons. They don't "feel" that their behaviors are wrong or understand how they make you feel but does that mean they can't control themselves? I don't think so. Not for a minute. They are manipulative and that's all this is. He has manipulated you so well that even when you are apart he still has control over your emotions. I know because mine was the same way. He told me in no uncertain terms that if I left him he would kill himself. Guess what? I left him, and he hasn't killed himself yet. And he won't. I can promise you that. He has already replaced me with a girl younger and stupider than I am. He's drinking and not working and hasn't missed a beat.
Whether or not you forgive him is your business. But do it for you, not for him. He doesn't want your forgiveness, doesn't need it, and doesn't deserve it.
-Teresa

Lukky · Site Admin Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 2431

Hey jjl.... This is such an interesting thread here and I was just sitting here thinking.."Could I ever forgive him??" and the simplistic answer for me is NO,,, Never!!

I can never forgive the damage he has done to my children, his children and me.... and my reasoning for that is as disorered as he is... He knows right from wrong!!(they all do and they dont care) He knew not to hurl his abuse in public, he knew all along to save his nasty bad assed behaviour for behind closed doors...he knew not to put bruises on the face and he knew when to stop..... He had control... and to have control is to know exactly what you are doing in my mind....

He also knew when he was acting all sympathetic to my worries and hurts that he was actually gathering information for the next boxing round....

Its a sick disorder and I know now I would be absolutely wasting my time to ever focus on forgiveness of him..... I want to forgive me more and focus on that... I want my kids to look at me and KNOW 100% that their Mum will never ever allow them to be exposed to that terror again.....

So I guess what I am saying here in my opinion sometimes forgiveness could be a dangerous thing...,,,, if we forgive them,,, does that put us in danger of accepting them back in our lives again??? I would never want to take that risk... better to forget them I reckon!!
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'The Best reaction is no reaction'

Teri470 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 188

My Mom said to me years ago (may she rest in peace) that a person chose to do what they were doing....drinking, drugs etc. If they didn't want to do it they would figure out how to stop. They made the decision.

When I found out he had been seeing a "man" behind my back and was in fact practicing this lifestyle I struggled with how I was brought up the 70 x 7 rule...I couldn't forgive him for lying to me...Eventually I found acceptance that he is who is he ...

When I learned what he had done to his own son and learned even more about the abuse All forgiveness and acceptance went straight out the window...

He made the decision to sexually abuse his son...he hated what was done to him as a child and still did it to his child..

Is he at fault? I firmly believe it.

I cannot find forgiveness or acceptance in my heart yet..Maybe its too soon, I don't know.

He chose to turn his back on his family, all of us...(parents included) and live a life just for him..He chose it.

Someone made a very good point on here ( matter of fact all posts were good) if they don't do it in public and do it only behind doors then they know what they are doing.

This has been an excellent post and very thought provoking
Exclamation

Teri470 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 188

JJL:

I don't know if there is a gene but if there is and if they didn't have it, would they have compassion, I say yes! At least part of the time.

I understand about the kids, I too have 3, all adults now. My middle daughter (26) a little over a year ago acused me of being a rotten mother and I was the reason her "father" left. Broke my heart. I just looked at her and said if you feel that way and walked away. Cried myself to sleep. But in the last few months I have noticed a change. I pray that it will stay too.

She was in a crisis (mental) too much stress (wedding, work) etc) she called and I went. What I got was so much of a surprise...There was no anger, tears lots of 'em. All she kept saying was this is my fault, all of this is my fault, I am responsible for all this. over and over. What that means I don't know. Begged me to help her. I also learned that she had tried to kill herself few months ago and got very sick. Maybe that was a turning point for her.

But it was the look in her eyes, sadness maybe. Then she went on to talk about how evil her father had been during her preteen years and on up, his lack of caring about them as kids. She talked about how he wouldn't have dropped everything for her and would have scheduled a time for her (would have cancelled it).. But here is Mom.
I just let her talk. She doesn't drink so I know thats not it. She is passionate for her job. Before I left her in the care of a roomate. she promised to see the Dr and get some medication. She is being treated for depression.

This is my daughter with the caring and compassionate heart as a little girl. Doted on her grandparents and friends if they needed it. Described as so sweet by teachers. Shared her food.

I also realized that night the damage that he had done was so extensive and goes so deep. I know that if he were to be confronted he would deny it. Somehow he would twist it to my fault.

Nolongerhisvictim · Joined: 10 Feb 2007 Posts: 1380

Yes there is the genetic component and it can be passed down. There are many parents on this board who have P children and you may want to make another post to get more information from them.

Take care
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NLHV

Echo · Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject:

Blooming and Artichoke, I can really relate to your posts. Blooming, I believe your doctor, they definately know what theyre doing. The first time mine hit me was in public - in a car park with lots of people around. He punched me in the eye and it poured with blood. It caused alot of scarring, and a black eye. I made up a story about how I had hit my head on the car dashboard to cover up for the black eye - but people knew. One co-worker came up to me(male) and kindly said "You shouldnt let him do that to you you know". I blustered on about the "accident", but I never forgot his words.

After that - all the abuse was elsewhere, never visible. I had arms that were black from top to bottom with bruises, punched in the stomach and back - but never again the face - he learned, he knew people had sussed him!

The time I really knew for sure was when he had a knife in my stomach - he pressed it slowly further and further in - just to the point at which the next step was a cut! I watched his angry eyes and I KNEW there and then that he was fully in control of what he was doing, even though he was raging like crazy. That was the scariest thing of all - actually realising that he had a choice, that he wasnt "out of his mind", that he was literally very much "in" it, that it was a plot - and it was going exactly as he planned.

Artichoke - Hey, mine said he would kill himself if I left - guess what? He didnt - but he did get several other women too! Smile

Give me strength!!!

Echo · Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject:

Hi JJL, Thanks for your kind wishes. All of that is well behind me now, thankfully, but I dont mind talking about it if it helps others in the same position.

I think that emotional abuse is the worst of all in some ways. Bruises heal, bones heal, but boy when someones got those pliers in your head - it hurts.

Always try and remember - the shame is HIS not yours - try not to carry it for him. He is disordered and too weak in reality to carry it himself - thats why he trys to make you carry it.

Thanks for you post. You take care now Very Happy