Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

lynn1234 wrote: Sometimes I think my NM might be a closet bi-sexual...

Yeah, I've had that feeling about NM before too Lynn.
She was always calling NF a closet homosexual, and had several stories that "proved" it.
She often accused me of being a lesbian too, saying my NFs sister was one - but I had no way to verify that until I found my cousin again after 20 years, and it's no way true.
Then again, she has ridiculous stories about everyone - my NBrother's son is actually the child of his neighbour according to her, not true either.
In the case of my NM she is just invasive wherever she can get away with it.
Had some uncomfortable moments in that regard.

As a son of a NM, I can attest that this weird and disgusting behavior is not limited to daughters. While others have described my mother as beautiful, I find her physically repulsive. Even to this day, despite being in my 50's, I do not like being alone with her or want her touching me.

Getting my period at 13 was traumatic. My mother told my dad that I got my period in a way that said he had to quit having sex with me because I might get knocked up and he'd get busted. Two implications here. One, mom knew that my dad was raping me and failed to protect me. Two, my mom had control over my dad that she failed to exercise earlier. Her concern was not my well being but any consequences to her. F*cking sorry excuse for a mother!

After that, my dad became more hostile to me. After all, I wasn't good for sex and he didn't have any other use for me. Sick f*cker!

My mom continued to hate me for having sex with her husband, like I had any choice. She acted more like a sibling than a mother. How wacked is that?

Like others have described here, my mom always thought that men wanted to have sex with her. No matter how much she'd let herself go. She never took care of her teeth or body. It was gross.

Lynn,my mom is probably bisexual, too. Narcs don't make love--they mastrabate with someone's body. I don't think it matters very much which body it is as long as they find the person attractive.

ardvark wrote:Getting my period at 13 was traumatic. My mother told my dad that I got my period in a way that said he had to quit having sex with me because I might get knocked up and he'd get busted. Two implications here. One, mom knew that my dad was raping me and failed to protect me. Two, my mom had control over my dad that she failed to exercise earlier. Her concern was not my well being but any consequences to her. F*cking sorry excuse for a mother!

Absolutely. How absolutely gross. I'm so sorry. Aardvark, it's a testament to how strong you are to survive this. Reading it makes me want to cry, scream, throttle someone and hug you all at the same time.

Oh Ardvark, I'm with Wendyhouse. My stomach is rolling thinking about what you went through. I too am so sorry about what you endured. *tears*

Ardvark,

I'm sorry for what you went through...that is sad that your mother did not protect you! It's quite disturbing....

Just wondering are you NC with both parents? And if so, for how long? Do you have any other siblings? If you do, did your dad single you out or did he do the same to a sibling?

"My mom continued to hate me for having sex with her husband, like I had any choice."

My NM had a P boyfriend before she married my Bipolar N stepfather...Anyway, when I was age 5 years old her boyfriend who happened to be mexican molested me...I didn't tell my NM for years because I knew she wouldn't protect me, wouldn't believe me or would be mad at me for it. Finally at around age 13 I told her...Her reaction was like she was a jealous girlfriend...like I stole her boyfriend or something... I was 5 years old for God's sake! Like I would want HER boyfriend to do that to me!!...what a sicko!...After I told her that my NM started to hate all mexicans... Also, she thinks they are taking the resources from the government that are DUE to HER!!! wacko!

Wow! My heart breaks for those of you who were molested or raped. I can't imagine what that would be like, especially with a family member.

I had never heard of menstruation until one day my mom came home from her appointment with her gynecologist and tossed a few brochures at me.

She said something like, "Here. My doctor said it's about time for you to learn about this."

The brochures were written like storybooks to tell girls about menstruation and how wonderful it is, and how they should choose products by the company that put the brochure together.

I glanced at them, but pretty much decided I wasn't going to participate.

Then one day, during PE class in sixth grade, I was attempting to do enough sit-ups for a test, but I was having terrible, stabbing cramps. I thought I was dying or would need surgery. As I was lying there, with some other kid holding my feet down, I was worrying about how to tell my parents something was wrong and how made Nmom would be at the thought of having to take me to the hospital.

I don't even remember how many sit-ups I finished but it was pathetic.

Went to the restroom after class and discovered the mess in my underwear. Since I hadn't paid much attention to those brochures, I had no idea what was going on.

She made me wear those old-fashioned elastic belts. Mind you, the pads with the adhesive were available in stores.

But there I was, wearing something as thick as a phone book between my legs, without the built-in leak-proof liners, and those stupid metal teeth on the belts had a way of digging into skin.

She told me tampons were only for whores or women who had already had a baby, and refused to let me use them.

Finally, in high school, I got brave and bought some tampons on my own and kept them hidden from her.


I'm still mad at my mother for not teaching me other things that girls need to know.

My hair is dark and thick, so the hair on my legs was noticeable when I was very young. Other girls my age were shaving, but she refused to let me. I was made fun of in school and in church. It was terrible.

And, believe it or not, I had no idea until I was in my 30s that women were expected to groom the hair "down there."

Now that I look back, I'm mortified about all the times I went with friends to a neighborhood pool as teenagers. I never understood how my friends felt so comfortable lying out by the poor or moving so freely in the water.

I had a mound in my swimsuit. Also, with all of the excess curlies sticking out, I probably looked like I was smuggling a small black child in my drawers.

Shoot, all of the men I've been with (not really that many) probably thought I was a freak. None of them mentioned it, though.

What about the many gynos I've seen over the years, the female ob/gyn who delivered my child, and the nurses who took care of me in the hospital?

They probably thought i was a freak.

Oh, and the talk about the birds and the bees? Never got it. Not a word.

PurpleDaisy wrote:And, believe it or not, I had no idea until I was in my 30s that women were expected to groom the hair "down there."

I hope you don't feel too silly or bad about this. Any doctor worth their diploma could care less about your hair and as for partners, well they're guests down there and if they don't like it too bad

I think that below the belt grooming expectations are ridiculous anyway, a bit like how some women believe the beauty industry pushes unrealistic expectations on us - its the same thing really. As long as you're clean who cares if you 'trim the hedges' or not.


And sorry for the OT post, I feel a bit silly writing it really.

Lior wrote:

PurpleDaisy wrote:And, believe it or not, I had no idea until I was in my 30s that women were expected to groom the hair "down there."

I hope you don't feel too silly or bad about this. Any doctor worth their diploma could care less about your hair and as for partners, well they're guests down there and if they don't like it too bad

I think that below the belt grooming expectations are ridiculous anyway, a bit like how some women believe the beauty industry pushes unrealistic expectations on us - its the same thing really. As long as you're clean who cares if you 'trim the hedges' or not.


And sorry for the OT post, I feel a bit silly writing it really.

It's not an off-topic post Lior! This about our sexuality, and how we perceive it is a big part of that.
I'm with you too on "home" gardening.
It's only recently I have become somewhat of a topiarist out of personal preference.

Like you PurpleDaisy, my legs were hairy, eyebrows ungroomed, in fact, all the "tricks of the trade" my mother used were unknown to me.

Lynn, NC with PF and NM for 8 years, beginning when my first child was born. I went to say goodbye before my father died of cancer. I tried to have a relationship with my NM afer my PF died (big mistake!). She's bitter and mean. I've been in NC with NM again for two years.

I have a half-brother who also sexually abused me. I know that he must have been sexually abused by PF (and possibly NM). My brother has the delusion that my dad's beatings were good for him. He will never deal with the abuse. I don't have a relationship with him.

My PF first raped me when I was 5. I didn't have the words to tell what happened. I didn't know the word rape. I knew that I wasn't supposed to tell. I ended up in the hospital for failure to thrive (stopped eating because of the trauma).

I am grateful that I can remember the first time and put together what happened. I don't remember much of my childhood. I've been in groups with women who were sexually abused younger than 5, and they have a really hard time piecing memories together. When the trauma happens before a person is verbal, it's hard to put the experience into words. It's like they are stuck--frozen in a voiceless, victimized state. It's so sad.

Lynn, your mother is so sick for blaming you for what happened. Not your fault! It took me a long time to stop carrying the shame that didn't belong to me. Healing is a long journey. You are a kind person who deserves love and peace. Safe hugs, if ok.

Lior, I also agree that your post is very pertinent to the topic. By the time I was 5 my mother would pester me about how hairy my legs were. By age 6, she was shaving my legs for me and by 8 I was given an electric razor. Hairiness is just one more facet of shame for me.

I was thin as a teenager and had a pronounced pubic bone that others often mistook and whispered about as a "mound" when I wore a bathing suit. I can still remember overhearing a boy I really liked making an offhand comment to his friend about it. Stupid as it sounds, that still bothers me a little to this day. A few years ago there was a Russian gymnast who competed in the Olympics who had a very pronounced pubic bone, and it seemed like everywhere I went someone was openly wondering what she was "packing." It irritated me a lot, and quietly I felt very sorry for her being on the world stage, and that being the thing so many people seemed focused on

Now that I'm older I tend to think of "down there" as personal preference not much different than the hair we wear on top of our head (except we don't share it openly).

Ardvark,

"Lynn, NC with PF and NM for 8 years, beginning when my first child was born. "

You've been NC for a long time! That's wonderful that you protected your children from your NP's...You are a great mother!

"I went to say goodbye before my father died of cancer."

That is sweet of you to say goodbye to him after everything he did... I wonder what will happen when my NM reaches that point...Sometimes I wonder if I will go to her bedside and say goodbye or not. I fear that she would just hurt me and reject me one last and final time. Just wondering if you could share some insight on ,if saying goodbye ended up being a good thing for you or not??

"I tried to have a relationship with my NM afer my PF died (big mistake!). She's bitter and mean. I've been in NC with NM again for two years. "

Well, you tried...you know that.... and you are a good daughter for trying as much as you have!!!... She is the one missing out on such a sweet and careing daughter as yourself!

Ardvark,
"My PF first raped me when I was 5. I didn't have the words to tell what happened. "

This is such a profound statement because thinking back on when I was 5 , and NM's boyfriend molested me, I remember the feelings and also now that you mention it,...I wasn't able to verbalize it either...I think it only happened to me one time...I only remember one incident but I fear that maybe if I was younger I wouldn't have the memory..My NM was with this guy from when I was age 3 to 6...and on and off from 6 to 7 years old until they broke up when I was 7 years old...

"I've been in groups with women who were sexually abused."

That is great that you got counseling for the sexual abuse..I never have...maybe I will someday.. I saw a therapist to deal with other issues I have with NM and PF...and when I down-played the sexual abuse by telling the therapist that it wasn't that big of a deal for me compared to the day to day abuse..verbal abuse... and that I've rarely even thought about the sexual abuse....cause it didn't really affect me.....The therapist was shocked and said that, that means I experianced severe trauma and a lot of trauma growing up because for most people that experiance is something they have difficulty with... That was the first time I started to deal with just how F****ed up my childhood and relationship with my parents is....because there was so much abuse that it all ran into eachother.....

"younger than 5, and they have a really hard time piecing memories together. "

I have a hard time piecing together all of the incident..But I do know that I either passed out in the middle of it out of shock and fright or he did something to me and I passed out! Either way, I'm quite disturbed about the memory of knowing that either one of the two happened...I clearly remember blanking out and then comeing to..waking up from it and that is one of the things that bothers me the most....I recall being aware that I had gone unconcious and that is what frightened the hell out of me because the psychopath just left me there...

"You are a kind person who deserves love and peace. Safe hugs"

I feel the same for you! You are a sweet person and deserve a beautiful future! Your kids are blessed to have you!

The only I can say right now is that I just learned that my NM uses Craigslist for sex. I found out 2 days ago from my step father. I almost threw up. He found the evidence from 3 yrs ago when they were dating. I suspect she uses a fake email account for more 'romps'. That one was using her real name. Idiot.

OMG!

Craigslist for sex?

That's awful.

I'm pretty conservative in my views, though, so I guess some people may not have a problem with that at all.

I have a family member who is a married male and uses Craigslist for sex. He has no idea that I know about this. His wife has no idea, either. I think it's incredibly disgusting.

However, this family member has no problem with it and says prostitution should be legalized, as well.

PurpleDaisy wrote:However, this family member has no problem with it and says prostitution should be legalized, as well.

I think it should be too, but not for the same reasons your family member probably does.

If prostitution was legalised things would be a lot safer for the sex workers. There'd be less pimps out there, less girls getting beaten and killed etc and if it was properly regulated there'd be a lot less STDs among the sex workers and their clientele. Its the worlds oldest profession, its never going away and the smartest, and safest, thing to do is to legalise it - think of the tax revenue that could be used on things like healthcare and education...

sorry for the OT post, it just got me thinking...

Lior wrote:

PurpleDaisy wrote:However, this family member has no problem with it and says prostitution should be legalized, as well.

I think it should be too, but not for the same reasons your family member probably does.

If prostitution was legalised things would be a lot safer for the sex workers. There'd be less pimps out there, less girls getting beaten and killed etc and if it was properly regulated there'd be a lot less STDs among the sex workers and their clientele. Its the worlds oldest profession, its never going away and the smartest, and safest, thing to do is to legalise it - think of the tax revenue that could be used on things like healthcare and education...

sorry for the OT post, it just got me thinking...

Again Lior, it's on topic :^)
I wonder how many prostitutes are ACONS?
Because their NMs or NFs told them they were a whore, because they had no self worth... and because they do not know how to protect themselves.
:(

Wendyhouse,

"I wonder how many prostitutes are ACONS?
Because their NMs or NFs told them they were a whore, because they had no self worth... and because they do not know how to protect themselves.
:("

I agree...because of this I have empathy for prostitutes because I think there must have been something screwed up that happened to them for them to end up on the street.. Many of the teen and young adult prostitutes are run-aways... I saw this for a fact, when I ran away from home I immediately almost ended up living at a restaurant that was a front for prostituting young girls and no doubt laundering drug money...It was an Asian restaurant, with NO food buisness....yeah, this one was in a Vietnamese Asian area known for Vietnamese gangs.... From that experience I now look at Chineese and Asian Restaurants that are slow or have No businesss, but stay in business anyway, as most likely involved in some form of organized crime......I was naive but was not that desperate to become a slave and prostitute...Anyone willing to run away and into a life of living on the streets is a target for prostitution and drugs...I saw this and decided to stay home and take the abuse because I didn't want to end up a homeless, drug addicted, prostitute.. Maybe my home-life wasn't as abusive as those who chose to live on the street rather than live at home...Maybe if my home life got much worse than it was that I would have ended up on the streets too....I can emapthize with that terrible situation to be in...

By the way, in the late 80's you could still drive through Hollywood and see all the prostitutes walking the streets at night...( now ofcorse it has all moved to Craigslist and other websites)Since I lived in L.A occasionally I would drive through Hollywood on my way somewhere when I was in my teens and not only did I see female prostitutes but this one area had MALE Prostitutes...Loads of them and mostly teenagers...Seeing that stood out to me because my first thought was RUNAWAYS and abused kids . I identified with them because I don't think they really want to be out there doing that, I knew their home life must have really sucked...but once their pimp gets them hooked on drugs they are a slave to the pimp and to the drugs....sad.. there are people in the U.S that are sex trafficed and forced into prostitution against their will... they become sex slaves....our Acon bothers and sisters, no doubt.... I doesn't seem fair that Acons often get repeatedly victimized through out their life and have to struggle to be treated with respect and love from their own family and then sometimes the outside world can take over where their parents left off...Like my beautiful kind NON-N Aunt who was murdered by her Pex-boyfriend...It makes me really wonder about life sometimes.....

( On a lighter note)

PurpleDaisy..

"And, believe it or not, I had no idea until I was in my 30s that women were expected to groom the hair "down there."

Me too...It wasn't until by accident I figured it out when I signed up for a figure drawing class which had a live nude model and I got more of a lesson than I bargained for!! I was like...what??? Nobody told me that!

I think some people learn from watching porno..I never watch porno so I missed out on that bit of info..

"I had a mound in my swimsuit. Also, with all of the excess curlies sticking out, I probably looked like I was smuggling a small black child in my drawers."

Oh man!! You are too funny....

"What about the many gynos I've seen over the years, the female ob/gyn"

Yeah...I think of it now and it's embarrassing what I didn't know then...and then wasn't too long ago! Yikes!!

Lior,

"I think that below the belt grooming expectations are ridiculous anyway, a bit like how some women believe the beauty industry pushes unrealistic expectations on us - its the same thing really. As long as you're clean who cares if you 'trim the hedges' or not. "

Your too funny!! But don't that hedges look better if they are trimmed rather than the yard being an over-grown jungle?
I know what you are saying...I'm just having fun! Yeah, who cares..I probably won't care after I reach 70 y.o anyway!! LOL

Wendyhouse,

"Like you PurpleDaisy, my legs were hairy, eyebrows ungroomed, in fact, all the "tricks of the trade" my mother used were unknown to me."

I'm embarassed to say...I'm in there with the rest of you! same thing..My Nm didnt want me to shave my legs when I was 13 because she said the hair would grow back darker...blah..blah...so, I taught myself and didn't do a great job the first time I shaved my legs....I shaved them on a day I was going roller bladding with my aunt....so, I shaved the front of my legs but didn't do the back of them!! I suppose I was a bit lazy and didn't want to twist my body to do the back of them...My dear aunt pointed out that I needed to finish the job! Woops!! knowing NM though she wouldn't have said a word...NM would have let me walk around looking like a freak for ages before she pointed it out....Luckily my aunt was kind enough to give me a few grooming tips...I'm sure if she was around we would have had the "trimming the hedges" talk...unfortunately, she wasn't around so I missed out on that pointer.....but thank goodness for the portrait drawing class! LOL ( That is all I can say!!)

Good to know I'm not the only one lagging behind in trimming the hedges.

After I learned about this phenomenon, I went after the area by trimming and then shaving. However, I shaved EVERYTHING.

What a mistake.

I mean, it was my first attempt and, unfortunately, I had heard all of this stuff about going 100% bare rather than just trimming things up.

This was right before a family trip to Disney World with my child, my dad and Nmom.

Let me tell you what. It is so uncomfortable to have nicks from shaving somewhere for the first time, aggravated by being sweaty from the summer heat, plus things tend to grow back quickly and it's quite difficult to twist around and have enough room in an RV's shower to touch things up.

What an amazingly uncomfortable trip that was.

Mickey and Minnie were probably wondering why I was twisting around and trying to be subtle about scratching myself when I was bare, and then a few days later when the pricklies were growing back I was running around Disney World kind of squirming because they were just long enough to get stuck poking through the fabric of my undies.

Very uncomfortable when YOU want to move in one direction but THEY are still stuck through the cotton (like velcro at this point).

Ugh!

How difficult would it have been to just explain this stuff to me long ago?

Ya'll, I think that the grooming down there is a generational difference. I'm 45 and I've never done it (aside from childbirth). The younger women do waxes. Maybe it's because men who have much more access to porn expect it?

Lynn, I wrote about my dad's death and funeral here:

http://thepsychopath.freeforums.org/wou ... ht=funeral

I can tell more or discuss it on another thread or by PM is you'd like.

I too, never got the birds and the bees talk, the personal hygene talk, the period talk, or anything of the sort and I'm 24 now with a baby on the way...

I learned it all from books and such. I wanted to be a doctor when I was younger (come to think of it, I think nmom was banking off of it) and all I got were anatomy books and the like. One of the books I still have to this day is "Asking about sex and growing up." It explained a lot for me. And then heaven I had this- I wouldn't have known what to do with myself in 6th grade when I started my period.

And for the personal grooming- I go bare because I've noticed I'm cooler (body temp wise) and it's easier to keep clean. I remember when I first started to shave down there, no one told me that I had to TRIM first. Took me like 2 hours to shave down there and I gave up after that and had to finish the next morning in the shower...

I learned from the PE teacher about shaving the legs... nmom didn't feel like spending time teaching me and didn't feel like buying me my own razors.

Crazy times...

I know this thread has been quiet for a couple of weeks, but I find myself thinking about this discussion thread now and then, throughout the day, when I'm going about my life.

Nmom never bothered to have any type of talk with me about how I was at a certain age and should expect changes in my body.

When I look back at parts of my childhood now, I am so embarrassed!

I masturbated like crazy on the monkey bars (jungle gym, or whatever you call it) at my elementary school.

I had never been into twirling or gymnastics like a lot of the other girls my age, so I thought it was cool when a few of them would get on the bars and twirl around and do these little acrobatics. Since my parents were too poor for me to go to gymnastics (or be in Girl Scouts or any of the things that would have helped me develop socially), one girl took pity on me and showed me how to do two simple twirls on the bars. With one twirl, you ended up with one knee wrapped around the bar, you kind of wrapped your arms around your knee, and then pumped with your free leg to get moving around and around, faster and faster.

Shoot, I could never wrap myself up like that now, after all these years have passed and I've packed on all of these pounds.

Somehow, if I got to pumping and grinding just right, I was a little horn-dog on the monkey bars. I remember the teachers blowing the whistle for recess to be over, yet I was still pumping away.

Probably worse than this memory is the memory of the family room in my parents' house. I would go to town, grinding against throw pillows behind the couch. A couple of times, Nmom would call my name, look over the back of the couch, and snap, "What are you doing? Get out of there!"

Then they rearranged the furniture in this room, putting the couch in front of along, tall glass window.

It never occurred to me that, when the lights were on inside the house and it was dark outside, people could see straight into the house. So there I was, all multi-orgasmic in the one-foot-wide space between the back of the couch and the window, with the lights on in the house and cars driving by.

A couple of years it hit me -- That's probably why a couple of girls down the street suddenly quit being friends with me. We had grown up together, to that point, and things weren't the same and I never knew why.

Oh, how I wish I could crawl under a rock.

What in the world did people think, driving by???

Purpledaisy, you don't have to answer this question. I'm just throwing it out here for you to consider. Is it possible that you were sexually abused as a young child? Your behavior may indicate that. I was sexually abused from a young age and I had issues about sex as a child. In my case, I confused sex with pain and I confused sex with appropriate intimacy.

Maybe you used masturbation to relieve anxiety? Nothing more stressful and anxious than living with Ns.

You shouldn't feel ashamed or embarrassed about you behavior. You were a child. You didn't do anything wrong. Sexuality is not wrong. You didn't have normal parents to teach you about appropriate sexual behavior. Your parents response was wrong because they shamed you for your behavior. You didn't deserve that. You deserved supportive behavior that taught you appropriate boundaries for sexual behavior. Don't carry the guilt that your parents laid on you. You're not guilty of anything.

No, I wasn't sexually abused by anyone.

Well, at least I don't think I was. I don't remember anything like that happening.

But, then again, there are sections of my life that are totally blank to me. I can't remember chunks of time.

There are only 3 or 4 stories from my childhood that anyone talks about. These stories have been told so many times (usually to make fun of me) that they tend to be what I remember from my childhood, even though I don't clearly remember the actual stories taking place. I have just heard the stories so many times that they stick in my mind the way they were told. Does that make sense?

I know there must be more to my childhood than these stories, but how do I get them to come back into my head? All I remember from childhood is lying on my bed, staring at the ceiling, daydreaming, wishing I was anywhere but there.

I am kind of concerned about my inability to remember chunks of time.

A friend from high school and I recently found each other and we were talking about old times. She would ask if I remember this or that from high school and also from the times when our spouses were in law school together. I felt weird because I honestly could not remember some of the things she was talking about.

This has even happened with me and my teen. He has a very sharp memory and remembers conversations and situations from when he was a toddler. Just today he asked if I remembered something specific and I did not remember.

I do remember at least two instances, when I was really little (4 or 5 years old, maybe) when I must have had some kind of infection because it would sting really bad when I peed. So bad that I cried.

No one took me to the doctor over this.

I do have a fuzzy memory of being a great big kid (4 or 5) when this happened. Way too big to have Nmom lay me down and spread my legs out as if she were putting a diaper on me, but Nmom made me lie down on the bed and she rubbed petroleum jelly on my crotch. Not sure why she chose petroleum jelly. Weird.

When I was 10, she kept telling everyone "I think she will be the one that gets pregnant at 13, of course I will have to take the baby off of her and bring it up properly"
I never had the chat about periods or anything. I remember when I was 11 and I started to bleed. I wasn't sure what it was, but after 3 days I was stealing my sisters knickers as I ran out of mine because I kept changing them. My sister found out and told my mum. I remember hiding my knickers behind my wardrobe. She found them and said "oh, she is just having her period!" She then threw a panty liner at me and phoned everyone up that she knew to tell them I had started it!
She kept me off of school for a few days. Then it was forgotten about.

When I was 13 she took me to the Drs demanding I went on the pill. ( I didn't even know what the pill was!) I remember coming out of the Drs room and she told me "This doesn't mean you can now go out and have sex!"