Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

How does one know if they are dealing with a N or a Psychopath? Is there anyone out there who has confirmed they have dealt with a full blown psychopath? I am aware that there is somewhat of an overlap. It just seems to me that perhaps the Ns, though they can be physically dangerous, are more likely to inflict the emotional and mental abuse and that the psychopath who has absolutely no conscience, is more likely to kill someone....and then I wonder how Borderline PD fits in there. My ex definitely had those traits too! What a trainwreck was he!
His main traits were abandonment issues, grandiosity, entitlement, extreme paranoia, need to shock others with graphic threats, promiscuity, sadistic desires, substance abuse. and to top it off, an excessive dose of magical thinking and overload of ideas of reference. Just plain Crazy!!! Anything and everything to quell his anxiety. How did I get so lucky?
You must wonder what I saw in him. Well that's another topic....
I just wonder how you tell the difference between N and P?

Hi ahoffma, I can confirm that I was dealing with a diagnosed psychopath - with a history of murder and physical abuse of women and men. The diagnosis apparently confirmed psychopathy with delusions of grandeur.

Almost all psychopaths are narcissistic as well. Not all narcissists are psychopathic. Any personality disorder can be co-morbid with others, so you may find a psychopath with paranoid PD. You could find a narcissist with schizoid PD for example.

Most psychopaths will use substances to quell the underlying depression and tension that coexists with the disorder. Its common in Ns too.

Environmental Narcissistic PD is based on abandonment issues, (real or perceived) psychopathy is rooted in rejection issues(real or perceived).

Most people with BPD are women, although men are known to have the disorder. It quite often includes self-harming issues, such as cutting and eating disorders.

A psychopath has no conscience at all, that part of their psyche never formed. They have no empathy and exist for self-gratification - which ever way they can get it.

Narcissists need attention, crave attention, so therefore need to form some form of warped relationships with people for N supply.

A psychopath needs noone except for what they can predate from them. That could be sex, money, things, whatever they want.

I'm assuming they do a good job at mimmicking human emotions too? What I am trying to understand is, after the breakup and after they are no longer getting whatever currency it is they want, what is the reason to continue pursuing the victim? Mine will verbalize it is the love he has for me, I know better. Is there an absolute refusal to believe, on his part, that things will never return to the way they once were? Are they living in some kind of time warp?
Anyway, today he sent his ex-wife, who I never met, to my door wanting to talk to me in private. Luckily, my father answered and told her I was not available. This is the same ex-wife who he told me he cheated on me with (they were already divorced). I believe this was on an onging basis and I wonder what kind of scheme they are up to. I know he is getting frustrated and this will bring on anger and rage very soon. I am filing for a restraining order tomorrow. I know he is going to try to figure out how to get me alone, so I am putting plans into place for getting to and from work now. Does this seem like escalation to you??? Thanks for your input.

ahoffma wrote:I'm assuming they do a good job at mimmicking human emotions too?

They are usually very intelligent and have learned, by studying others, how to use emotion to get what they want. The emotions are not real, and rarely ever are, if ever.

Hi ahoffma, Good for you for deciding to file for the RO. Yep, it sounds like escalation to me. He's using a proxy. Ignore her, dont get involved with any of them.

OK, a psychopath is a predator. If there is something he wants to predate, he will find a way to do it.

They think in a very binary way. "I want it...get it".

If a psychopath is stalking you, it is because he once got something of value from you - and he still wants it - at that moment. If he finds something better that meets his needs, he will move on.

Thats why you are advised to make contact with you as difficult for him as possible, because he is stalking you, he wants back whatever it was he had from you - for the now, until something better comes his way.

Its not that he loves you, its not even that he cares(he doesnt know how to, its not in his makeup), its that you were his possession and he doesnt like losing it.

The next stage after the proxy doesnt work is more stalking, and then a build up of anger/I love you/anger................

The RO is the first step, then more of what you are doing. Its a horrible way to have to live - but if he realises he isnt going to get you back - he will move on to something else?

Can I ask you? What did he get from you? Did you keep him, spend on him, mother him at all? Did you solve his problems? Is it the sex side?

He values you as he would a favourite car....you see, he doesnt expect his car to answer back or walk away - he expects it to work just as it always did.

Thanks for reminding me that I was merely a possession to him and that loving or caring is completely absent in his makeup. What did I give to him? I gave him all of the things you listed. I gave him money, I helped him with all of his problems (and there were many) legal, family, education...This is someone who NEVER stopped talking about himself and his victimhood-I unfortunately wore my empathy on my sleeve and I listened endlessly. And yes, sex was a huge factor. Our relationship started and ended with sex and not just regular sex. Without getting too graphic, he had it his way and he lived out many fantasies. I would say he is a very somatic individual who is obsessed with certain body parts and rituals. His very sanity seemed to depend on sex. He once said sex is all about humiliation and he never understood the connection between sex and love. It seemed that he was reenacting something that caused him a great deal of shame. It was abuse I see now. He had his hooks well-embedded in me before he let his abusive ways show. I still wonder why I let him treat me this way, am I a sexual deviant? I never thought so. We had many talks about this, he made many promises he never kept. This man is no stranger to the street life including prostitutes and he may even be bi-sexual, I don't know. So I know he can get sex elsewhere, but nowhere else will he get such a package as what I gave him all rolled into one. I was one supplier of everything....this is pretty bad huh? It was like I was in some kind of trance, very hard to explain.
I am still hanging in there with NC in spite of his attempts....I never want to live like that again!

Hi ahoffma, I'm so sorry that you have had to endure all this, thank you for your honesty. So, its easy to see now why he doesnt want to let you go.

No, you aren't sexually deviant, you answered your own question in your post. You wore your empathy on your sleeve - right there for an abuser to see and use and abuse. That doesnt mean that you should feel bad about yourself, or ashamed. The shame is his, thats why he projected it onto you. He couldnt carry it.

Thanks for not getting too graphic, we are an open board, so that was very considerate of you. I get the point of what you are saying. There was a big red flag there in his "sex is about humiliation" comments.

The trance like feeling you have is probably because of all the mental and emotional abuse you have suffered at the hands of this man. A "good" abuser will get their pliers into someones head and they will barely know what day it is, never mind what reality is anymore.

http://thepsychopath.freeforums.org/lov ... 10754.html

Have you access to a therapist at all? This would be very helpful for you.

He seems to have his own fantasy world which bears little resemblance to reality, and in order to keep it that way, anyone involved with him would have to see things his way also. It would be easy then to gradually end up being brainwashed into seeing things his way..........

(((((ahoffma)))), you are one brave woman. Please keep hanging in there with the NC. This man is seriously un- healthy.

As the for package - yes, it sounds like you are what they call his "primary source". The one where he could get everything all in one place - and that is what is valuable to him right now.

Psychopaths and narcissists are misogynistic. They dont like women. My ex used prostitutes too, and was actually investigated in a series of their murders.

Keep that strength going ahoffma, good luck with getting the RO today. Keep your spirits up, and stay determined. You can get through this.

You dont have to live that way again - theres a better life ahead for you.

Thank you so much for all of the encouragement and the article is really good, I'm gonna share it with my family - they have been so baffled by my involvement with this loser for so long and it will be helpful. My sister was the first to say she thought it was like I had been brainwashed and so I have done alot of reading on ss and most recently cognitive dissonance. I have spent alot of time trying to figure myself out as probably many of us here have.

I was his 'cult of one' that's for sure. God, hindsight is 20/20! Looking back, he initiated his mind control from the start, I can pinpoint events and sadly, I remember like yesterday. I have always wondered if abusers do this intentionally as in pre-meditate? Or does it just come naturally? Obviously, no victim would Knowingly let this develop within themselves, it just happens...Is that how it is for them?

Got the peace order today! Yeahhhh! It is a peace order rather than RO since we have not lived together for the past year and we have no children together (thank God).

He is actively stalking me as evidenced by him following me in his car when I left for work today. He waited for me to pull out of my street and followed. I turned around and instead of going to work, went with the support of my father, to the court house and filed for the Peace Order, it was granted. I was so angry even more than I was scared.

He actually showed up in the court room unexpectedly. He spent the entire time prior to the case being heard, calling my name from accross the room, trying to get my attention. Cases were being heard by the judge! (but he's so special, he is allowed to interrupt). At break time, he approached me and repeatedly asked me if it was over and did I have a new boyfriend? I did not look at him except to say 'it is over'. It was sooooo pathetic. A police officer had to approach him to tell him to go out into the hallway. He later actually had an attorney (who was not even his attorney) approach me to ask me if I ever wanted any contact with him again. I answered the question a big 'NO'.
WHY is he so dense??!!

When the case was heard, he was very concerned and kept asking what he did. I only let the judge speak for me. I did not look at him.
Ex-N made sure to verbalize an appology to me for 'ever scaring me' or 'invading me in any way'.

The judge had to ask him repeatedly "do you understand the order?", he was acting confused but he knew damn well what was going on.
Why must he act like he doesn't understand? Are these court proceedings too mediocre for him or does he just want to drag out the attention? or what?

I know the Peace Order is no garauntee of anything, but at least it is something I can file a violation on if he comes near me.
Most importantly, I felt that I stood up for myself and I let him know I am serious. That's a change! I was so freaking nervous, but I did it!
P.S. one single tear, quickly wiped away and forgotten

Your support has been so helpful. Thank you.

Hi there! Yayyy - you just made my day! Well done you for getting that Peace Order. Thats absolutely brilliant!

I'm glad the article helped, there are many others on the types of techniques abusers use. Its a good idea to show your family. I understand how you feel about this, and how they might have felt too.

My family couldnt understand my involvement either. I used to defend him to them at first, tell them he wasnt always like that, that he had a good side, yada yada..........really, I worked out, I was defending myself not him. Because if I admitted he was that crappy - then what did that make me?

I figured I had made my bed with him, and that I had to lie in it - it took a long time to get away, but when I made my mind up - it happened.

I felt alot of shame too before I learned about why I had gotten sucked in, he told me everything was my fault and I was all too willing to believe him at first, but it kept happening and I got wise eventually.

Id never been involved with anyone like him before, and I got totally sucked in. Before I knew it I was paying for him for everything, apologising for his behaviour to people I knew, carrying all the responsibility for him. I was lucky that he didnt try the wierd stuff on me, that was a boundary he couldnt push through - but he was doing that with other women.

If I hadnt been so afraid of him, he would have been long gone, but fear kept me stuck too.

Yes, hindsight is great, but the thing to remember is - you can now see it. You aren't stuck in a fog, its lifted. You are seeing him for what he was, and what he still is. Dont ever let go of that. Its so valuable.

Abusers have a huge armoury of manipulative tools. He will have picked them up through life. There will be things that were done to him that he repeats on others, things he saw work with other people that he added to his techniques. They just keep trying it on - if it works, great, if it doesnt, try another form of abuse. They know what they are doing - they just dont care about who they are doing it to - its all about themselves and keeping up their false self at all costs.

Personality disorders usually become "set" around teenage, up until then they are traits, and can possibly be counteracted upon. Other than that - the die is cast, the disorder becomes permanent - and nothing can reverse it.

These kinds of persistant mind-games, constant power and control trips are enough to floor anyone that is vulnerable to them.

Working out why we were vulnerable to them is a great thing to do - keep at it, it will help your confidence that you wont ever allow someone to do this to you again.

Back to the Peace Order...

What made me smile with hindsight was where he kept asking you if you had another boyfriend. Mine assumed that straight away.

translate that to "Im such a great guy, you couldnt possibly want rid of me, some other man must have come along and stolen you from me - its not me, Im great - its him - he has stolen my property and turned your head".

Comical how they automatically make it not about their abusive treatment, but about us having someone else Their ego's wont allow them to consider the fact that they just aren't up to scratch. To go back to the car analogy - "someone just stole his car - not that the car just got sick of him and drove off"!

You did so great with that judge, perfect way to behave towards your ex in there. Congratulations to you.

I remember being very frightened when I applied for mine, and that it was all over very quickly.

He was acting confused in an attempt to get sympathy from the judge. He turned up in an attempt to control the situation. They can act when they want to. He was trying to put over the sad, baffled ex-partner routine who cant understand what all this is about. Like you say, he knows. Dont fall for it....its just an act.

I remember the police telling me (he was locked up for assaulting OW1) that they had him locked in the cells before prison and that he was crying like a baby. They weren't tears of remorse, they were tears for himself.

When I started looking into things, I took a good look right back through my life to childhood and pieced things together from there.

These predators will try their stuff on a person, if that person has strong boundaries, they will simply move on to another until they find one who will respond.

An N or P will actually throw out tests to us to see if we are suitable victims.

Most people that go on to have a relationship with them will be baffled by the test, and overlook it. Mine, with hindsight, happened on our first date. He was absolutely horrible to me and I told him quite sharply to take me home - he instantly switched into this really nice person. This confused me, and I remember thinking "Oh he must just have been nervous". and stayed there for the date.

That was my test, a secure person would have been sure that his behaviour was awful and gone home - but I wasnt confident .....and I "passed" it. I stayed. I took his first trial abuse, and didnt leave.

There and then was the start of my downfall and thats how simple it is...
once they know you will take their abuse, the charm deteriorates, the mask slips, and we are hooked, and it all happens so subtly, so quickly, in an unreal atmosphere, that it takes some doing to a)realise its abusive, and b)get the hooks out.

Im so glad you got that order. He probably wont stick to it, and you will have to keep strong for a good while to come, but boy, youve made a great start.

Speaking of tests. Yes! you know exactly where I have been. First of all, he knew I was from a completely different background than him. I am educated from a good family etc etc etc. He knew these tests would throw me off balance and once I started justifying his behavior, it would be harder and harder to leave and he could keep raising the bar higher and higher.

Intimidation through threats was his thing, whether he was threatening me or the community or the world. I remember the first time I ran from him. While he was in the shower, I ran out the door. I knew in my mind I should not be in a situation where I needed to plan an escape route! God, I should have kept on running! Next thing I know, I hear him yelling for me out the bedroom window. He enticed me to come back and did the 'I'm sorry' thing. It was downhill from there. I just have to say, he was so so skilled at putting on the nice thing. Talk about acting pathetic and confused! Then the bar went up to a slap in the face, then up to choking etc. etc. you get the picture.

This is like the whole ss thing. Of course if a person leaves you lying on a dusty road in the middle of nowhere on a hot day and then the same person is the only one to come along and offer you a glass of icewater 5 hours later - you will be indebted to them and you will 'think' they care about you. It is a sick attachment that begins to form. I didn't even know it was happening, I just felt so thankful every time he didn't hurt me and then I started to feel thankful he still loved me. I was never prepared to meet someone like this. I wish I had known. Today, I am lucky to be alive, who knows how high he was willing to raise the bar.

Do you know he interrogated me like a madman, held weapons to me, broke things in front of me to scare me, unless I fessed up to whatever it was he felt like making me confess (it was usually cheating on him). And do you know I admitted to things I didn't even do out of fear? No one I told could seem to understand this. It seems like only I understand why I did this. All I know is he used those things against me for the duration of the relationship.

At any rate, the confused, pitiful act did not work. The judge didn't fall for it and pretty much talked to Mr. N like he was an idiot. The games they play!!

Hi ahoffma, Yes, I and lots of others have been just where you have. Its a terrible position to find yourself in, and one that takes some getting out of. But it can be done, Ive done it and so have many others, so take heart.

The "tests" are just one thing they use. I remember being horrified to find that out because it all sank into place.

They also mirror us. They probe us by asking questions about what we like, what are our hopes and dreams etc, then they pretend to be interested in them. We find that flattering and start to think that we have met someone who is just right for us.............wrong!

Once we are hooked, they dont need to keep up the pretence anymore.

Your story is so familiar to me, and many others. The first violence I met with was a week after he moved into my home. We were at a bar with friends of his. He spent most of the evening talking to women that kept approaching him and actually left me sitting with these people I didnt know in order to do it.

After a couple of hours of this, I quietly got up to leave. Got my coat and walked out to get my car. I was half way there and this fist connected with my eye. I can remember screaming for help. There were plenty of people around, but noone came. The fist kept going and I saw stars. I remember thinking that I thought this would hurt more! He stopped and then panicked because there was blood everywhere. He began to cry and beg for forgiveness. He said that it was because he loved me so much, that he was scared that I would leave him. I was absolutely terrified - but...I didnt report him. I didnt want to be the one that ruined his life, I felt sorry for him ....can you believe that? I believe you can.

I didnt know about the "pity plea" back then(Martha Stout - The Sociopath next door". Thats how crazy this stuff gets.

I didnt walk away, I swallowed it down and hoped that that would be it. It wasnt very long before it happened again. The violence always escalates if we allow it.

I have had knives at my throat and stomach, bottles held over my head, he held a knife to my dog because I loved him so much(my dog), he smashed my mothers furniture because he knew how precious it was to me(she died not long before I met him).

Everytime I threatened to leave he would attack me. See the link? Leaving them scares them witless. Because they have limited emotions, they feel fear as anger - and thats where the violence comes in. They cant allow their possession to have a mind of their own. If they do, they know that they will leave.

When he wanted to feel superior to me he would accuse me of having other men. There were no other men, I was way too afraid for that.

So yes, I have been where you are now - and I can tell you that getting away from him was the best thing I ever did. I learned from the experience and I never looked back. I worked on myself, found out why I had tolerated that kind of abuse - and went on to build a very happy, normal life. No darkness, no threats, no abuse, no shame.

Its very hard for anyone that hasnt been in these kinds of relationships to understand the fear, intimidation and loss of sense of self that comes with them. Dont worry about that right now , worry about suring up yourself, healing the pain, putting strong boundaries into place - and realising that he was a very sick man that no amount of decent love can heal. Its not our place to do that - and yet thats the position we find ourselves in.

You can do it too - and I wish you strength and courage. You deserve so much better.

I do agree with everything you said. I know it is me I need to pay attention to and work on. I want to understand why I tolerated this kind of treatment that I swore I would NEVER put up with.
He is a lost cause. I am the one who deserves happiness.
I am soooo ready to get my life back and make it even better but I know my self esteem took a huge hit and I don't even know where to begin. Any tips?

Hi ahoffma,

How's it going today?

I think the thing to realise is that it took time to get into this situation, and it will take time to heal from it.

First of all I would make sure that you are physically safe from his stalking. Take all the precautions necessary to make sure of your safety at home and at work.

Have you actually spoken to the local police about his stalking? They can also advise you on personal safety tips.

Emotionally, well, its finding the vulnerability, being really objective about why we accepted that kind of treatment i.e - so I would say, if you feel up to it,(and only if you feel up to it) you could try being your own emotional detective and take yourself back to before you met him.

Be very gentle with yourself though, its still very early days.

Were you lonely?

Were you sad?

Had you just come out of another relationship?

What was your life like right before you met him - was it good?

Were you happy?

What were those needs that meeting him filled?

Its actually quite hard work to get to love an abuser. We have to overlook much bad behaviour, alter our outlook to suit them, change our thoughts to accomodate the abuse....

Did he pull the pity plea and made you feel like you were the only one who could rescue him?

Did you feel wanted, needed, useful?

When you find what need he fulfilled, you will be able to identify an area where you might have felt vulnerable.

Good luck, and well done for how far you have come so far. Get all the support you can, gather your loved ones around you, and dont give him an inch.

You are an intelligent, caring woman who got sucked into something very traumatic, you will reconnect with yourself gradually the more you are away from him - and thats going to feel really good.

If he is still stalking you, Id say go to the police.

Hi! Welcome to our forum!

Echo has attributed some more than excellent advice. And Knoxy has some good sage advice as well.

To offer my bit of advice, I offer you something a lot like Stockholm Syndrome. I offer a thing called "Learned Helpness", and it's a reason why us women often stay in our abusive relationships. In this link I am providing for you it talks about pavlov dogs which explains a lot about Learned helplessness, and explains why it happens so much with battered people whether they are phsycially or emotionally abused.

Check this out:
http://www.noogenesis.com/malama/discou ... sness.html

Thank you all for your advice and for all of the resources. I love to read and I am sure I'll explore every one of these.
I never realized it but you're right it does take alot of hard work to fall in love with an abuser. Why should it take any less work to heal from it?
Only the healing will be worth it.
I really need to think about what need was filled by falling in love with this man. All I know is I was actually in a marriage at the time, one that had lasted 15 years. My Ex husband also had many narcissistic traits, I knew something was wrong with him, I just didn't know what it was until I learned about Ns. I was experiencing no passion for this selfish, condescending man, I wasn't happy at all. I have to really explore what empty holes were filled by falling in love with this other man.
I have a feeling I'm going to learn alot about myself and it is exciting! This is my chance to create MY life. Just for Me.
FYI: My N stalker went to my girlfriend's house for the second time. She did not answer the door. I suggested she file a peace order as well. I feel so bad that she is now his target to use because he has no one else to turn to. I am going to report this as a violation of the Peace Order that I just filed. I am doing my best to stay safe - mixing up my routine, catching rides rather than driving my car. It is so frustrating not feeling free to live my life as I want but my goal right now is to make it impossible for him to even catch a glance at me. NC 10 days! It only hurts occasionally.

really need to think about what need was filled by falling in love with this man. All I know is I was actually in a marriage at the time, one that had lasted 15 years. My Ex husband also had many narcissistic traits, I knew something was wrong with him, I just didn't know what it was until I learned about Ns. I was experiencing no passion for this selfish, condescending man, I wasn't happy at all. I have to really explore what empty holes were filled by falling in love with this other man.

Hi ahoffma, Theres just part of your answer. Looks like you were unhappy in your marriage, and along came the stalker and presented himself as the answer to your problems.... might it be that theres the vulnerability - unhappiness, and loneliness within the marriage maybe? And that you were swept from one unhappy abusive situation into an even worse one?

The empty hole is something that we need to fill for ourselves, lots of us make the mistake of thinking someone else can fill that. They cant, its about loving and caring for us, nurturing ourselves. Starting to really care for ourselves will heal that hole. Getting to know and accept ourselves is very healing and nothing to be scared of.

He will stop bothering your friend eventually. She did great not answering the door. Very sensible of you to mix up your routes etc., just keep making it hard for him and dont let up, dont weaken your resolve for a moment, keep focused on your future.

You are doing amazingly well - Im glad the pain is easing a little. It really is an awful situation, but its so great that you recognise that you can build the life you want for you - noone else, you. You have healing to do from before him too - its your turn now.

Please keep alert ahoffma, and go to the police if you have to - its you over him every time from now on right? :D

I'm still hanging in here with NC. There are longer and longer spaces of time now that go by when I don't think of ex N. It is not easy sometimes though, I come to tears at the thought of this tragedy and I wonder why such f***** up people are put on this earth.
Anyway, Last night I got together with some friends I had been seriously neglecting. I even met a new friend. I am really paying attention to the qualities in people that make me feel comfortable and happy. I refuse to be around people who don't make me feel good about life.
You were right, I DID go from one bad relationship to an even worse one. I always said I went from the puppy to the Big dog. Though my first husband never got physical, he imposed alot of emotional damage and caused me to doubt myself alot.
I definitely have alot of healing to do from my marriage as well as this latest abusive relationship.
My inside smile used to come only from knowing that he (ex N) was thinking about me. I need to find a way to provide that smile for myself.
I guess one of the reasons I am doing so well is that I have tried and tried and tried so many times and I became completely exhausted. It has been such a long time coming. I came out of denial and faced the reality of this illness. The support I have gotten here has played a big part, I am so glad I found it because until now I really felt like no one understood why I was so devastated by losing a loser.