Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

zanderman1 · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 282

I was talking to a woman who is like a sister-in-law (S of a long-deceased romantic partner) on the phone the other day, and she said something that's been bugging that part of my mind that thinkthinkthinks repetitively and unproductively.
She's a dear person who loves old people, and is taking lots of care of her M & F, who live abt 30 miles from where she lives. She devotes lots of time and energy to her folks, and they love her and appreciate what she does for them. She said something about how hard it would be to abandon an old person, and I said yes, it is VERY hard to do. This kind of stopped her in her tracks, and the conversation took a turn to me & my situation with my NM. Next thing I knew I was starting to JADE.
She has never met my NM. She said it wasn't all sweetness and rose petals with her Ps, and I said the difference was that they loved her, even if they sometimes had unpleasant exchanges and scenes. She then suggested that maybe it was part of my "spiritual journey" to just love my NM without expecting to get any love in return. I caught myself starting to JADE and stopped.
Since then, the conversation has been haunting me, I think of things I shoulda, coulda, woulda said, to try and explain. The worst part is I start doubting my decision to NC my NM, thinking, maybe she's right. Maybe I'm being selfish, maybe I would grow spiritually by just continuing to give and give. Something is unresolved and that stupid part of my mind is going round and round. It isn't making me miserable, just vaguely uncomfortable.
The facts are, my NM is 90, nearly blind, and hard of hearing. She has enough money to pay for home health care twice a week, has good VA benefits, and is living comfortably in a very small town with no crime to speak of, and people who look out for their neighbors. I found her this house, fixed it up according to her needs and preferences, I keep an eye on her finances to make sure no one is fleecing her, I got her in contact with all the organizations and services that can help her live independently (w/o having to follow other people's rules), and now she's set up pretty well. I take care of her as well as I can while maintaining NO PERSONAL CONTACT. All this took (and takes) time and effort. And let me tell you, tax time was a fancy dance indeed, she tried to get other people to talk me into calling her, some cooperated with her, some refused, but the tentacles were out! (She's probably mad enough at me to cut me out of her estate, but I don't know that she trusts anyone else to look after it. I am willing to risk being written out of her will to maintain NC.)
The feeling that I am being judged and criticized by people who don't understand the situation bothers me. Not enough to break my precious NC, but enough to drive me to question my own motives.

Just needed to get this out, in the hopes that feeling understood can put my repetitive and unproductive mind-activity to rest.

ricochet echoes · Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Europe

Hi Zanderman

Yes, people who have never experienced an overly abnormal childhood and who have not faced or observed mental illness/PDs/abuse or anything out of the considered norm. cannot always understand what it is to live with these things and to be a product of them and to have to step away from them when appropriate or necessary to personal survival. Clearly this lady's values are directed at the norm. side of life based on normal background and teachings and lack of knowledge/experience.

Yes, we could all be on a spiritual journey depending on what one believes in.
If the encounters/people and treatment in our lives are a lesson to learn or our actions/reactions in life are a test of our level of spiritual fulfillment then who is to say that the incorrect action was not to stick around a NPD family member and be abused as equally as the opposite?!
If the spiritual journey is also interaction with those placed in this so called spiritual journey with you then why is it not that the correct spiritual learning pattern for your NPD family member is that they need to learn also - prehaps by your actions...and if that means zero tolerance then so be it?

The medical POV is that a person closley related to a NPD who is getting abuse and gotten it for years should keep their distance. There is no cure and no treatment apart from having them locked up.

The religious nature POV is that we must honor thy father and thy mother, turn the other cheek, take the good with the bad and care for the less fortunate etc... well that in my mind is a personal matter whether someone decides to continue to be embroiled in an abusive relationship or distance oneself. Also, who is less fortunate is depending on where you are standing.

If you had been abused in certain other ways ..like beaten by your partner or abused sexually you woud not be expected to remain in touch with the abuser - so why should it be for mental abuse by a parent with a PD?

In my opinion, you have not abandoned your NM - you have done everything in your power to make her safe and well and cared for. If she abused you during your life time together then you have no obligation to be too close to her. You have more than fulfilled your obligation from a moral POV.

Anyways. on the contrary I do not think children should be obligated to their parents in their old age - it was their parents choice to have them , not the other way around. A parents job is to ensure that they do the best job possible in making their offspring as whole, balanced adults who can go off into the world well prepared for their own lives. I really hate it when I hear the attitude that kids are here to care for their parents in old age - now that's sick.
Perhaps your friend had a lot to be grateful for and in return she feels like giving them something back (opposed to being obligated which would be a bad reason for doing what should be a labor of love given the correct circumstances and if it makes her happy to do so) - it is all very nice for her but she has no right to judge you because you have had a hell of a life and she has had a good one. In your shoes she might do the same - she could not answer that one honestly for sure. You have a different reason to how you conduct your relationship with your NM and do not worry about other folks ignorance, they mean well but they have no idea.

RE

Seachelle · Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 40

I'm new here but I do understand what you are going through. After about 20+ years of almost NC with my NP mother (she would call from time to time in drunken or drugged rages or melancholy but I'd hang up), she sent me a letter. I didn't open it for a few days but finally my husband did. She said she was dying of cancer and needed help, being alone. She was 74 at the time and her husband is deceased.

That was two years ago. I felt I couldn't turn my back on her, she was reaching out and needed help. In addition to her "cancer", she is disabled due to hip replacement and knee replacements. She told me she was unable to even walk from room to room, had no way to get groceries, etc.

You are fortunate you were able to help your mother even with NC by setting up help for her. My NPM refused help from any outside agency.
Told me she was destitute (pretty much true, since she online gambled away all $$$ her husband had left her).

I felt that I wouldn't leave a dog to starve in the streets, so how could I do that to my mother? We paid her back taxes, pulled her out of foreclosure, sent her food, etc. We spent thousands, and then allowed her to move in with us. Big mistake.

I've had two years of absolute agony, off and on hate and rejection, etc. My husband and I finally took her in (she lives out of state from us) but that lasted two weeks. I thought it was funny that right after she contacted me begging for help and I agreed, she sent me a box of old photos and letters I had written as a young girl. I didn't open it at the time, just stuck it in a drawer. But after she moved in, threw rages and left (and for someone who said she can't walk from room to room, she stomped around here without even her cane--oh, and there is no cancer, she had a pre-cancerous lesion on her thyroid), I opened the box yesterday. Not because I wanted to read anything but because I was searching for an old address I had once lived at and thought maybe one of those old letters would show it.

She had written horrible things all over my letters to her (she gave up custody to my father when I was a child but stayed in and out of my life, thus the letters), writing "Bi***" and worse after many of my sentences, and on one writing "Hate" over and over and over, etc. She also enclosed her own notes to me in each letter--notes she had written after I had agreed to help her, filled with hate and love, remorse, regret, blame, name calling, begging for help, etc.

I'm glad she went back to her home but, you know, I am still wracked with guilt that she may be hungry or be sick and alone (she has no friends or living relatives besides my adult sons who don't even know her). The guilt is awful and I'm very shaky right now. But I am glad I read those letters and her notes because I now know it never would have worked out (her living with us) and that it is not my fault but her own illness.

I think you are doing the right thing. You have provided for your mother and yet have been able to maintain NC and I admire that. I hope I can do that for my mother--somehow make sure she has help even if I have to call Social Services in her state.

Hang in there and don't let anyone else make you feel guilty because they aren't living in your shoes. The worst thing I ever did was break my NC and try to help my NPM and take her into my home.

justmee · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 691

Funny thing....

They would love to know that we are filled with doubts, that we are ? ing ourselves. They would dance to know we feel guilty, because then, they have a chance of pulling our strings again.
I feel this way myself, lots of times....I guess tonight I am strong enough to say...keep on your own path, stay true to yourself.

justmee
_________________
If you can not deal with it, or change it, then its time to walk away from it.

Seachelle · Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 40

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Hi Zanderman,
You friend doesn't understand where you come from. If you have a balanced and loving family it can sound radical to cut connections with one' parents...
I actually have a lot of trouble with the concept myself, probably because the emotional abuse I went (an go) through is much milder then what you had to endure. I have also the advantage of having an ocean and a continent in between my NM and me! So 90+% of the time I have only to control how many phone calls and what subjects to broach with her and, even with that, we have still regular "un-pleasantries" and communications that end up with one of us hanging up the phone. When I go visit her, though, it is a pure hellish nightmare and I often swore to myself not to repeat the mistake of spending time with her, especially in her own house! So I think you took a wise decision, and the only one that allows you to have some peace and happiness. It seems like NP don't like to see their close family happy. Or do they feel like that only toward their chosen scapegoat? Now, if my old mother would become mute, that could be helpful... :^)

baby_kay · Joined: 05 Mar 2008 Posts: 135

Seachelle,
First, let me just point out, all of your heart, and strength, for helping your mother. What a wonderful person you are DESPITE and because of her. I would be honored to call you friend, and family. And second, I feel you pain, when you opened that box. All I can say, is the truth is costly, but it does set you free. My family makes up cancer scares, and alot of other shit, just like yours. I have never come across this similarity and I feel better knowing I am not alone. My family also calls other peoples families and asks them if their loved one REALLY died, and who got what money. (MY NM did that to my husbands family) These are not things I share with anyone, because they are sick, and no one understands, that some people have this in their family, and it NOT a reflection of them. You did a good, kind, and wonderful thing to try to take care of your mother. THe fact that she lied, sceemed, and such for your generosity, is 100% N behavior. Instead of feeling bad, (I know you do) imagine how pleased GOD, is with you and your actions. She will have to deal with her maker. She is not capable of the love and such that you are able to give, the mercy you take, and the genuine gift you are to yourself, and the ones who are blessed to have you in their life.
I support you, I respect you, and I am proud of you.
I hope you feel better knowing I am impressed with you

zanderman1 · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 282

I was trying to post a thank you to all who responded, it got lengthy & out of hand and then crashed.
Seachelle, I second baby_kay's sentiments. You did what was good & decent & got punished for it--I can relate to that. My own NM is much more subtle than yours, careful to not get caught in a provable lie, never leaves anything abusive in writing. I am very sorry for the shock & pain you must have felt when you opened that box.
Justmee, thanks for the reminder! I feel better too! Very Happy

limited, You are right, I think, that Ns don't like to see their close family happy. NM tells othrs that she "loves" me, and then others tell me that, and some of them know her well, and I wonder, how can you even say that with a straight face? What sort of weird, twisted definition of love do you use? REAL LOVE DOES NOT BRING PAIN.

Someone recently posted that being around their NM makes them depressed, and they function a t a lower energy level. This is true of my NM also. When a situation lowers your energy level, then common sense says that the situation/company is not good for you and you should get away. When a situation raises your energy level, then it is good for you and you should embrace it, no?

Real love creates a new level of energy. Phony "love" sucks.

Seachelle · Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 40

I was just thinking, before I logged on here, that I'm real good at telling people not to let others make them feel guilty but I'm even better at beating myself up. Wink

Because that's what I've been doing. And continue to do.

I just keep thinking that I could have done more, acted better, while she was here. Crying or Very sad

Since I joined this board I see that this is pretty typical (?).

Wow. I don't cry--I shake or I hide my feelings (even to myself) but I'm sitting here with tears streaming down my face from all your posts. I can really relate to everything all of you have said about your own parent and all of you offer real support and caring to eachother.

Baby_kay, the cancer scare and using extreme illness for attention was nothing new for my mother. She's done this since I was a young child.
And thank you so much for your kind words and understanding. I did search my heart and knew that the Lord wouldn't walk away from me so how could I walk away from my mother? At least, that's how I justified breaking my NC and helping her. I wouldn't leave a dog starving in the street, so how could I do that to my own mother? I didn't think to remember--or, rather, I didn't want to admit-- that dogs sometimes bite, even tho my husband pointed that out. Sad

You touched my heart as no one else has in a long while. Thank you.

Zanderman1, someday if you have time and the inclination, would you pm me and tell me how you set up care for your mother without her knowing it was you? I mean, what agencies, etc? I just don't know what steps I can take since she has refused help from outside agencies I've tried so far (Council on Aging, Meals on Wheels, etc).

As far as people not understanding: Years ago, even tho I had broken off contact with my own mother, for a long time I did not understand why my elderly neighbor's daughter would not help her or maintain contact. Yes, this was in spite of the fact that I had broken off contact with my own mother. Perhaps the face my elderly neighbor presented to me was very different from her relationship with her daughter so I did not understand. Of course, at that time I knew nothing about the N or NP parent or even NC (in spite of my deciding NC for myself).

It is very hard to any outsider but especially to someone who has had a good parental relationship to understand why we maintain NC. I mean, I had a bad relationship and cut off contact with my own mother, yet at the same time I wondered how the nice elderly woman's daughter could do that? If it could happen to me, I'm thinking it would be very natural for someone who had a good relationship with their parents to not understand.

Hugs to all!

baby_kay · Joined: 05 Mar 2008 Posts: 135

Seachelle,
When your dispencing advice, it is in the rational mind, when you are in the situation, you have changed positions. Guilt, is something that you feel when you think you should of, or could of, done something more, or different. Or that someone was counting on you and you let them down. It seems to me, that is an internal indicator. So...if you did something, you can elimate the guilt, but to not feel hurt, or sad, that your actions, were not even met some small graditide, that is hard. I have extended myself to all, because so few would extend themselves to me. So for me, it is the knowing, that everyone needs someone sometimes. Whether they ask for it or not. You did your best, you did something. Your actions are not hidden from others, and from god. Yes, sometimes dogs bite, but they bite, because they are scared. We are all scared. The sickness story whether real or otherwise, was a manilpulation on your behalf. You didn't fall into anything, you did what you would someone else to do for you. And I believe that is what we are all here for, to help each other. Not judge. Your NM even in her sickness of being a N, can not give you what you need, because if she could, she would not be a N. Separate. You are a wise, and good person, and everyone supports that.

lynn1234 · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 619

Zanderman,
My thoughts on this is that we Acons are the ones that have been abandoned emotionally by our parents all ready.. Not the other way around, that we abandoned them. They abandoned us.
My mom has done everything in her power to push me away as I am sure all of our N's have done.
My NM was happier when she had her "freedom" away from her kids and she would often remind me of this fact.. I was a burden to her..
She enjoyed partying, her durg use, and she even verbally told me if I don't like her behavior then " go live with your dad." ( when I did that she accused me of leaving her) yet she pushed me away and was a totally irrisposibile, and unremorseful for her behavior. She blame shifted and was in compition with me.. My own mother stole from me, verbally abused me on a regular basis and at times physically abused me...( I recently had a memory come back of her kicking me after chaseing me around the house trying to hit me.. when I fell she kicked me several times and told me to get up...Yet...I stuck by her for 35 years waiting for her to change. Now I know she can't, doesn't want to, and won't.. Other people don't get it. I guess the don't understand the severity of abuse we have went through.. I regret that I let my mother back into my heart after moving away from her.. I bent over backwards to please her, took her on trips around the world, bought her all kinds of things to make her life comfortable but in the end she was still bitter and demanded more. N's are ungreatful, uncapable of love and use us like objects and then dump us when they are done and we aren't any longer needed.
In my opinion, it is us that is abandoned.. Without having a pity party for myself here...I feel abandoned and orphaned...My mom has never been in touch with my feelings or how her negative behavior effects other people.. She has no real bonds with people and I suppose she is ok with that...I can't allow myself to be hurt over and over by someone who could careless about the pain they are inflicting... I haven't found a way to not let my mothers behavior cause pain to me so until then I am NC.. self-preservation.. I don't think we were put on this planet to be constantly abused and in pain from our N's.. I don't think this was God's plan..

thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 476

I understand the dilemma here Zanderman. There are two forces at play: one is empathy, one is rationality. The empathic element wants to forgive, reconcile, go beyond anger and resentment to find peace. The rational element contradicts the kittens and sugar approach and views the situation practically: here is a toxic person who in their blindness continues to subject me to their dysfunction which affects me adversely. From my own experience, the kittens and sugar approach was an overwhelming failure. I simply don't have the strength to immunize myself from my parents toxicity, I can't help but get caught up in the web of dysfunction which throws me into the downward spiral. So for me NC is a no-brainer. However each situation is different - you mother is 90, mine is 56 - and should be dealt with accordingly but under my circumstances NC is a no-brainer. A final point. Anyone who does not understand the ACON's predicament will almost inevitably advise the kittens and sugar approach. It is human nature to be sentimental and all too often sentiment obscures commonsense with disastrous results!

We don't all have to be friends. It aint like that!

zanderman1 · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 282

Seachelle--correction: my mother knows I am the one who set things up for her; I made no attempts to conceal what I was doing. I took her personally down to the local Senior Center, gave her phone #s (in large print) to order meals delivered if she should want them, from the Senior Center or a local cafe, set her up with transportation services, got her medical records transferred to the local VA hosp., the state Coalition for the Blind, etc. It is up to her now whether or not she chooses to make use of what is available. She doesn't eat beef, and has a long list of foods she doesn't like, but those are her choices and not my problem. She chooses not to go into an assisted living situation b/c she would have to live according to other people's rules. I offered, she refused. Her choice.
Our N parents want THEIR problems to become OUR problems . . . it's taken me half a century to begin to tell the difference. If you provide your NM with some key phone #s for Meals on Wheels or whatever, and she chooses not to use them, b/c she finds it more fun to try to manipulate her close family with fear, obligation, and guilt, and make their lives as miserable as her own, that is not your problem, and not your responsibility. I think you have gone way beyond the "call of duty" w/ your NM (haven't we all?) and it's time for her to be responsible for the consequences of her behavior.
HEY! it IS a lot easier to dish out wise advice than to take it yourself, isn't it? Laughing

zanderman1 · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 282

seachelle, the pm feature on this board has been disabled, that's why I replied "on board". Regarding dogs that bite, I love dogs and would at least attempt to rescue a dog in trouble, even if it meant risking getting bit, unless it had rabies. But what about rattlesnakes? My mother does not deserve to be compared with a dog. Dogs are warm, friendly, loving, eager to please, fun-loving... I think my NM is one of those "reptilians" that David Icke rants on about.
lynn, I think you are absolutely right about (1) it is us who have been abandoned, and (2) I don't think this was God's plan.
thayilflies, there is one more factor in the mix (besides empathy and reason, I mean). That is my own egoic mind, which stubbornly identifies with an image of me as a kind, loving, helpful, thoughtful and fair person. When my ego fears that the world may not see me that way (and the NM manipulates this, and I've been letting her for decades) then the mind goes into fear-and-defense mode. However, most of this fear of how others "see" me turns out to be just phantom baseless projections into the future. When moments of confrontation come about, I usually find that people understand my situation better than I expected. It's all so stupid, but 5 decades of conditioning and habit keeps it reappearing.

Here's a thought: How could my spiritual journey (or God's plan) be anything but taking the next healthy step--one step at a time, doing the next healthy thing?

Seachelle · Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 40

Thanks, Zanderman1. So sorry about the comparison to dogs. I do dearly love dogs--good thing, 'cause I have 8 of them. Laughing

(Being new here I didn't know the pm button is disabled--thanks)