Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

1ablueprincess · Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 195

You are in the same state as me. It may be different in each county, I dont know. But in San Luis Obispo when N files an OSC for custody/visitation I have to go meet with a mediator. I tell the mediator he is nutz, my S tells the mediator he is nutz. Then we go to court and the mediator tells the judge we could not reach an agreement. Then the judge looks at the filed papers and has the hearing and decides the matter. In most custody/visitation cases the parties are able to decide the matter themselves, if they have problems they get an opportunity to decide the problem with a neutral mediator, if there is still problems (as usual when dealing with an N) then they go to court and bog down the court calanders.
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vmm · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 175

So do the children stay with you, or does someone speak to them separately?

1ablueprincess · Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 195

My S has always spoken with the mediator separately, I guess because there would be too much pressure on the child to speak in front of his parents.
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Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 873

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1ablueprincess · Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 195

The judges hear alienation all the time, but they usually just hear it from people who have no evidence and nothing else to say to explain what happened... in your case you DO have the evidence. The cases I know of have never been able to use alienation successfully because it is not proven and accepted in the psyc field and also because HARD evidence is needed and that is rare.

You CAN and SHOULD talk about the changes in S behavior. Even though your X will deny it, this is where "credibility" comes into play. You need to prove your X is a liar, and not let him catch you in a lie and once you do that if there is something that cannot be proved with independent witnesses and stuff then the evidence is in your corner because you have more credibility.
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Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 873

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1ablueprincess · Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 195

I think you did just fine Summer! This is hard, always second guessing yourself (I do it all the time). The KA needs to know that you do care and are concerned, any normal person would be! You did not give him any information that could ever be used against you, you did great and I am sure your attorney would agree (though they like to be the one to do all the contact, but from personal experience I dont think it wize to always rely on your attorney to do his job). KAs are usually overworked and busy, often even too busy to respond. Remember the KA is your S attorney, not yours and his duty is to represent his client. This can be tricky, because sometimes the kids wishes are not in his best interests and the KA knows that (such is my case right now). BUT it is the kid who can come back and sue the KA for malpractice, not the parent. And yes the judge almost always does whatever the KA suggests, I guess it makes the judges job easier because the KA is required to be neutral to the parents and do his homework (though they do not always do that and if they do not do their homework and you make a fool out of them in court then the judge will not necessarily go with them).

As for my own deal, sigh......... I just wanna bury my head under pillows and sleep and make it all go away. I am sick to my stomach and just exausted and feeling no strength to carry on.
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Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 873

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tryingmybest · Joined: 15 Aug 2007 Posts: 27

Summer/Princess,
I am praying that the WHOLE TRUTH comes out in both of your cases. I know that gut-wrenching sick feeling...worrying 24/7 that the courts/attorneys, your kids, and anyone else involved are going to be sucked into the N's despicable lies.
Been there...
But the truth did come out. He'll deny everything-blaming me until the day he dies, but at least the right people were able to see through him.

Keep fighting...

((((HUGS)))) to both of you.

Breathe · Joined: 19 Oct 2007 Posts: 8

Summer,

Hope you are enjoying your time with your son. I agree with you that it's best not to talk to him about court etc. However, I'm not sure why you are so worried about him being upset with you about it, as it is his dad who is creating it, not you. He probably already knows, don't you think, since he met with the "kids attorney" (is this a GAL?) Lay the "blame" where it lies, or better yet say nothing - don't apoligize what what his father has created. He's 15 - he knows what's going on.

Also, you said your stbx met with the "KA" along with your son, but the KA will never speak to you or repsond to your emails. Why is that? Why would your stbx be allowed communicate to him and you not?

Regarding Mediation. This is the time to work out a "parenting plan" between you two without having to go to court. The court would prefer this - they really don't relish making such decisions unless parents simply can't do it themselves. Yes, you are dealing with a Narcissist, which makes any agreement between you two almost impossible, but an agreement is what the mediator wants. I don't think this is the place to trash each other. If that starts to happen, the mediator will probably stop the process and you will go to trial. Court is not fun. Even when a party "wins", they always seem to be not getting everything they want. In your case, you kind of have a double whammy - as apparently your son's "wishes" (however manipulated by his father) will be heard, and he has a GAL who already has given your Stbx more custody time than he originally had.

The more I think of it, and since you presented a "parenting plan" to suit you in a previous post here, maybe you can offer a couple of different senarios in mediation. It's not uncommon for a parent to walk in with comprehensive "plans" for custody. This means you present what you want, in a rational manner, which also appears to be "working" with the other parent. You suggested you would like weekdays with your son and give all weekends to your Stbx. That's a good start, but not the the 50/50 you have now, so it probably won't fly. Maybe you could consider giving dad all weekends, Spring Break, all Winter break and he majority of 3 day Holidays. That way, you would have your son a lot, and most importantly during the important school times. You have said your Stbx is not good with homework, yet seems to enjoy having him on the weekends (to "run free") so maybe a schedule like this would please your Stbx. You could offer, in mediation, some varities of this plan, which makes you look cooperative and could actually give you what you want - quality time with your son.

As far as summer is concerned, it's completly reasonable that both parents get "blocks" (at least two weeks at a time) or even just split the summer with the child and you should argue hard for it. The way it stands now, niether one of you can even take a real vacation with your son during the summer.

Question your Stbx's motives. Does he really want to spend a lot of time with your son? Does he want to decrease CS? Does he want to simply "punish" you? My feeling (and I could be totally wrong) is it's CS related. I bet he HATES sending you money, especially since he indicated he would no longer be paying for your 18 year old. By the way, he cannot choose whether or not to pay - it all goes by the Guideline and the laws in your state, unless you and he work out an agreement for LESS CS, which could be a consideration if you are will to bargain that for more time with your son. These are the sorts of things that get worked out in mediation and all are viable. However dealing with a Narcissist in unlike dealing with anyone else, so if anything, it has to seem like he's "gaining" something out of the equation for him ever to agree.

Unfortunatly, I believe it's impossible to "mediate" with a Narcissist, and your case will most likely end up in court, but you can give it a Hail Mary and see what happens.

As far as filing the response to his OSC. It's surprising your attorney isn't more on this. It's not usually a one day affair following a meeting with him/her. It must be all worked out, exhibits attached, you sign and your stbx served - all within a certain time period. Then he has one last opportunity to respond to your response. He actually get's the "final word" so to speak. It would be wonderful if he didn't, or lacks the time to do so - but if he's a N, he will find a way. Be prepared. It's insidious. He'll claim everything you said in your response is a lie, and then he'll lie some more. Sorry to say this, but it's most likely true.

Judges hate this as you can imagine. Who do they believe? That is why they so badly want parents to come to a meeting of minds in mediation. Unless you have an attorney who is not only extremly skilled and experienced in Family Law, AND is able to call the guy out in court for what he really is, AND have a GAL who sees that your son has at least in part been manipulated/alienated it's a slipperly slope as to which way things will go for you. It's a risk, and it's not fun.

On the other hand - it just doesn't seem like your Stbx has that much "on" you to change custody. Normally the only way custody is changed is for a major change of circumstances (ie move-aways, totally unfit parent (think Britney Spears!) The fact that your son has a GAL and for some reason is being allowed to adress the court as to his "wishes" is most concerning. Your case seems so unlike the norm (even in contentious cases), it's hard to advise or predict what might happen. Naturally, this is always the case with a Narcissist, but yours seems much more layered than most.

Why the heck isn't your attorney sitting down with you and going over all your options? Seems to me you should not have to tell him/her about filing a response or not being advised on how to commuincate with the GAL (if at all.) These oversights can blow your case for you. You should also be asking for legal fees for this OSC, since Stbx is forcing the issue with no reasonable cause.

Summer, no one here (I doubt) is a Family Law attorney, and all we have is our own experience in dealing with divorce/custody issues and Narcissists. Take from what you hear here what you will, but at the end of the day the best you can hope for is the knowlege that you've done your best. They might win in the short run, but God willing these kids grow up and learn the truth. The REAL truth, not the baffling crap that surrounds disordered people. For all of us, we need to stay strong for ourselves so that our children will never have a normal mentally healthy parent let them down. I believe that is the ultimate goal of just about everyone here.

Hang in there, and good luck,

Breathe

livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 942

Summer,

You have been given some great advice here from the other posters on this thread.

I just wanted to share something with you. When ExN used to speak negatively about me to d, I used to just remain silent. I thought that's what we were told to do during the divorce workshops. Then my therapist pointed out something to me. If I don't talk to my d about something, and all she is getting is lies from the N, then her reality is distorted. Distorted reality can lead to her own PD down the road. Now I sit down with her and tell the truth when N lies or pressures her. If I have to, I have her therapist discuss the issue with her.

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 873

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1ablueprincess · Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 195

Hi Summer. My next court date is Nov. 2, it is a "review"
to see how the unsupervised visits are working. I am going to be in pro per. I am scared to death for my son. The judge misquoted the doctor in order to lift the supervised visitations at the last hearing. Further I had an attorney fee hearing where my attorney proved that N hid half a million dollars from me in community property and N took the 5th 3 x in 15 mins and we caught N in a dozen other lies. N went off on the judge and was yelling, ALL the bailifs look for N at the court house and tell me he is a nut case. YET in the last 2 months, no matter what I do or what the evidence is or what my sons feelings on the matter are, the judge is ruling against me. I dont want Nov. 2 to come. My former attorney told me he thought the reason the judge is doing this kind of stuff is because the judge is thinking about termination of Ns rights......somehow I am not so sure and am scared to death, especially since the judge denied me attorney fees because that had nothing to do with termination of Ns rights and I think it was just a direct attack on me because of a lawsuit I had when I sued someone the judge knew. I think no matter what I am screwed.

All I can tell you though is what worked for me for 4 years UNTIL I sued someone the judge knew (which I would NOT advise anyone to do)
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Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 873

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Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Summer, can I complain to someone about you reading my mind?
First you suggested I market my N radar detector: I was definitely going to think of that sooner or later. Second in your posting to 1ablueprincess, you suggest a support system as she apparently lives close. That is something else I was going to think of!
Seriously, wouldn't it be a good idea if there WAS some sort of support system where other members could somehow actually be with those whose cases are at a serious level? I know that generally, members are very far flung and I don't suppose it's a practical suggestion but to have someone actually with you would be very helpful.
I can see that your own problems are falling into place a little better, keep going!
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Sailor