Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

vmm · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 175

Summer I wholeheartedly agree with Breath and Sailors's advice.

You need to start writing your response now, this weekend. What if you type it up and mail a copy(certified) to your attny on monday with a formal letter asking attny to assist you with fine tuning your reponse according to the law, help you properly attach the exhibits and help with filing before the deadline. This way your attny will have notice that you intended to file the reponse, what your response said and that you had these exhibits of police reports, etc to present to the court.

WRITE THE REPONSE. MAIL IT AND THE EXHIBITS CERTIFIED TO YOUR ATTNY WITH A REQUEST FOR HIS(YOUR ATTNY) INSTRUCTIONS TO FILE IT ON TIME TO DEFEND YOURSELF TO THE COURT.

Many times reponses are due to be filed in 10 days. You have to follow legal protocols. It sounds to me that your attny isn't giving you the help that you need. You must insist on it. You have to request that your attny assit you with your response and eshibits and filing in time.

I also agree with some on here that PAS is not the best approach. Many times it is turned against the one propsosing it. Say if N proposes it, (he's not got that mush on you really) and the juge and mediator see your reponse with hard evidence police reports, etc think about which side they will lean towards. Rembember mediators and judges have to justify their decisions and can't just make custody assignments based on on parent feeling like they were alienated against. They need hard copies, which you have and you need to get them in your response.

N has pyched you out sooo much. Get on it. the court makes the decision, not N. You have to get what you know documented to the court.

Also, in some counties, you are required to file a document to mediation a week or so before attending which outlinesd your reponse, exhibits and proposed parenting plan. Some counties want you to get the court documents to mediation before hand. You need to get your response and ehxibits attached to your attny, filed (file it yourself if you have to) and maybe to the mediator. Go visit the counter at the mediation office and ask. You may also have to attend mediation orientation.

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 869

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Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Summer, you must throw everything you can against N so that the sum total clearly indicates he is a bad parent. I now see you are the primary parent, but don't just go there to maintain your present position, go there on the basis that N is an unsuitable person to have any children in his care and that you require S15's access to him only on a supervised basis ,if at all. Hit N hard.
On the medication matter, prove your surgery and medication as said before but also: all medication in UK has a leaflet in it giving side effects etc. I take painkillers for occasional migraine (but I never complain - today's joke) the leaflet in it says 'these tablets may make you feel drowsy, if so, do not drive or operate machinery. Also it says DO NOT drink alcoholwhilst taking these. Can you produce such a leaflet from yours as evidence?
So far as the drinking allegation is concerned, don't say you are teetotal (unless you actually are) or N will say you were drunk at a cetain party on a certain date etc. All you need to say is that you only ever drink socially, never at home alone and certainly not when you are on medication.
You can't just simply deny everthing N says, but you have ample evidence to disprove his feeble statements
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Sailor

vmm · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 175

Health, safety, welfare of the children.

Accident. N refused to take son to the hospital. Sons teacher insisted. attached are exhibits of police report, letter etc.

Guns. N refuses to remove the guns from the house. N leaves the children alone in hte house with the guns unlocked. N has provided the county with no proof of registration of the guns.

Gate. Since son has lived with under N's influence sons high achiving school record has suffered immensely. S was suspended from school because of threats and talking of guns. Exhibits x, x and x.

Write directly, aim for one 3-4 sentence paragraph about each event and attach the exhibits that are related to it.

Keep it to What N and children and why it is not in their best interest.

My attny (very ggod advise to me at the time) told me to never claim "alienation" because that was not a N-child relationship, but a N-me relationship, and the court would say it is not about me.

I did write 3 short lines that Ns abusive actions were interfereing with the children being able to maintain a healthy relationship with their mother. You see, this takes the "alienation" from Ns actions against you and puts it into Ns actions on child and theri relationship with parent.

I think you will also have to repond to any financial issues but keep them separate, not intertwined with kids issues.

Your attny will give you the exact format you are required, but you have to get the "rough draft" and the exhibits to him with a formal request in a letter that he help you complete it correctly and submitted by the court deadline. Summer please write this letter to your attny and enclose your rough draft and exhibits. Please do not let your attny sleep on this. And don't let attny refuse to include the exhibits because your attny told you to play nice while N screws up then he would have a case against N and win for you in the end... so where is he? <--attny

1ablueprincess · Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 195

Summer I take back what I said about PAS and telling the judge. My N tells the judge that all the time, but only recently has the judge begun to rule in Ns favor and that is only as a last ditch effort before terminating his rights and because my son was feeling abandoned and other things which have nothing to do with your case.
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survivor

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 869

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vmm · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 175

Summer,
Don't take it all so personally. divorce is a lawsuit. N has filed papers stating his side. now you must buckle down and file a response stating your side. If you don't, N gets what he asks for, kinda you like you don't respond, then it will be interpretted as if you don't care about your children.

It is not OVER yet. N has not WON anything yet. You need to respond. Consider yourself fortuneate that you have the police reports and solid objective evidence, which is what the court prefers. My N was so sneaky, that I did not have the evidence until down to the wire. The evaluator said, I was lying because I would not give him objective evidence so I had to hire a private investigator to get the hard evidence and did not get it until down to the wire. You have had it for a while. Use it.

Force yourself to sit at the computer and type the response this weekend. It is easier to type it then stew about it. Kinda like making your children get their homework due on Friday done on Mon instead of Thurs at 9pm. You can see the relaxation in hteir faces the whole week.

Don't let them down Summer. Its not over, you need to get your response together. I'll check back on Sun. I realize that I myself am stalling on one of my "Freedom after N" projects hanging out in the forums. We are so use to having N's stall out our lives that sometimes we still let them even though we don't need to anymore.

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 869

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Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Summer, one more tip: Again I do not think S15 will be asked to choose between parent's whilst everyone is physically in the same room together.
In my D's case each child was interviewed separately, I believe they were given various psychologically based questions. I know that each was given a piece of paper and asked to draw their 'home'. Each drew my D's house although N was seriously alienating, threatening and bribing them to choose him. Bear in mind they were only about eight and ten at the time, so I doubt the same test would be given to a fifteen year old.
Anyway, here's the point: When directly asked to choose, each of them said of their own accord that they did not WANT to choose and would not do so. They were not primed by my D to say this.
Your S15 will be under great stress when he knows he has to be at the mediation and will guess (or be told by N) that he will have to choose. I know you should not discuss things with S15 (although N WILL be doing so) but I think it's reasonable to drop a hint to S15 that he can simply say that he does not want to make a choice, no law can force him to do so.
I'm saying all this on the basis that N will be working very hard on S14, and this option could give S14 an easy way out of things.
By the way, glad your brother can accompany you, and sorry to hear of his problems. When this is over, I'ld like to know what a Navy 'seal' is. We don't have that in UK.
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Sailor

Breathe · Joined: 19 Oct 2007 Posts: 8

Summer,

Here is a special assignment for you - until your court date do not refer to your husband (your'e not divorced yet) as an "N" or "the N." or "narcissist." Think the way the court will - he is "dad" "father." Even if you had hard proof (i.e. medical records) of his "diagnosis" as being NPD it STILL wouldn't matter. He is your son's (and other kids) father and WILL be given many rights to parent. Face this reality. Many faced with the realization that their spouses whom they are divorcing are "mentally ill" tend to focus ONLY on that, and it will not help when it comes to actual time in court - in fact it can hurt the abused spouse. Sad, but true.

Fact is, your husband has many rights to your son. He is totally responsible for him financially. He lives in the family home. Your son lives there most of the time with him ( I believe) This is what he will present it to the court in his argument for primary custody - and he just may recieve it. Be prepared for this. I'm so sorry to present this so blatently, but it's true.

What is is it you want, Summer? Do you want "primary physical custody" of your son? Are you able to accept 50/50? I'm not clear on what you really want (as far as the court is concerned.) Your son is 15. He seems to live with Dad more than with you. If that is the staus quo, it most likely won't change.

If you want to Court or the Mediator to stop the PAS of your son - forget it. Not ever going to happen. This is the most unfortunate and cruel twists of a custody battle with a Narcissist or any controlling person - NO ONE will help you or your kids but YOU. Be aware of this- it's probably the most important thing I will ever say to you.

I have suggested you file a response to your husbands OSC, and you should. Your attorney should have immediatly begun that process the minute you were served with his OSC. It's not an easy thing to do. It's time consuming, and very expensive (legal fees.) But it should be done. The mediator does not read what is submitted to the Court (his OSC, your response) In your state, mediation is a mandatory excersise prior to the court hearing. Of course, it would be prefered for you and he to work our a parenting plan in mediation, and not have to go to court. But the mediator is not a Judge, and has no authority over your case. In my opinion, it will be a complete waste of time.

But, please, ask yourself this very soul searching question...WHAT DO YOU WANT? Sole custody? 70/30? 50/50? Keep in mind, your son is almost an adult ( I know, I know - always our babies) but fact of the matter is, he is 15 and will have opinions, and they may in part be manipulated by your husband, but he is old enough to think for himself as well.

Even if you were still married to this guy, some of this same crap may still have been happening. The glory is, you are no longer with him, and in time, your son (and your other kids) will see the difference in your parenting. Sadly, for you, it may take years for them to realize that Dad was really disturbed, but unfortunatly, you don't have a ton of legal recourse right now to prevent him from being as much as a "father" as you are a mom.

I wish I could tell you - "Oh Summer, just walk into court, present your evidence and the Judge will see what a fvcked up, insane and irresponsible dad they have", but I can't - and you will soon see why.

Keep your eye on the prize - and only you know what that is. Is it more custody with your son? Is it retaining CS and SS. Is it stopping the PAS (again only one who can stop that is YOU) Is it securing your financial situation (this is a HUGE issue, and one I have many thoughts on - and so should you) Now is the time to FOCUS - Forget the word "Narcissism" remember the word "Dad" because I swear to you, that is what the Court will hear.

I really do wish you the best of luck,

Breathe

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Summer, there is a wealth of good advice here, it's up to you which advice you follow. I think you know that I would stand up and fight at this stage but I also know that discretion is the better part of valour. Only you can decide which course to follow.
Some other points occur to me:
If you do not have time to prepare your case, you can ask for an adjournment to give you time to prepare your defence and to prepare your case against N. This way you would avoid dragging S15 away from his practice and it would unsettle N in his efforts to worry you.
If you produce photos of N's house as it is now (an unfit place for S15 to be), also produce earlier photos of it under your care. i.e. before and after.
Someone could ask 'if you had all this evidence about N and his activities, why did you do nothing about it? The answer is that you felt that at 15, your S has been through enough and YOU did not want to drag him through the courts again, knowing that N would control and manipulate S15 with regard to the outcome. Apart from this you did everything you could. Actually, for N to do this to S15 is an act of cruelty in itself.
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Sailor

vmm · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 175

Summer, you will not be able to delay the mediation appointment. Sailor, mediation appointment is a meeting that both parent meet with a court official (loosely termed as mediator) to see if parents can reach a parenting plan instead of going to trial.

In non-fighting, friendly divorces the parents have met together several times to develop the plan, then go to the mediation appointment to get the parenting plan through the court to save on legal fees of going to trial. Meeting is required by state law anytime one party files for a change of custody, but each county has separare procedures and rules, thus the confusion.

It is stated in the court order, so Summer must attend on the date she was given. Not an option to change date. Very rare. I had to take off work and lost my position, the court did not care. I was the only employed parent at the time.

In some counties parents are ordered to bring children as young as 5. This seems to be a recent thing in the last severl years. Obvuiously unchalleged. If I had to bring my children, I would most certainly insist that their college age sibling accopany them to all interviews etc.

In some counties the "mediator" writes a report to the judge if the parents are uncooperative.

Depending on the county, no attorneys are allowed at all, not even children's attnys.

Some counties require each party to attend orientation several weeks before the mediation

In some counties, the mediator can recommend a custody eval.

Some counties say mediation is confidential (sealed) and allow no contact between the mediator and the judge.

As court officials, and/or state lisensed mental professionals, most are required to report threats and or violence or life threatening abuse to child services, the police etc.

This is why I felt it important that Summer bring the concrete proof she has of the the gun info and lack of medical attention to the children. If another court official, besides the "neutral?" childrens attorney has knowledge of documented health, safety and child welware issues the childrens attnys will be less able to just snowball the court with dad's lies.

When I went the last time, I went into the mediator room, told the mediator that my attorney wanted to accompany me for my safety, but the mediators' office would not allow him to. I said, my attny had advised me no contact with my X. My attny was right now working on my reponse and contempt of court motions because dad had refused to pay any court ordered child support in over 2 years. Dad flew off the handle and threatened me in front of the mediator and I asked meditor for an escort to my car. A Guard accompanied me past the 60 parents waiting in the lobby for their mediation appointments. Mediation over. On to trial.

So Summer must find out what the rules of court are for her county and go her specific mediation center to get the facts specific to her.

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

vmm: point taken, one set of rules for U.K and one for Ca (depending which county you're in). Summer certainly needs her attorney's advice here.
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Sailor

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 869

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livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 942

Summer,

You had stated that N said he spoke to kids' attorney twice about you appearing drunk. Does he say when he spoke to kids' attorney?

I would think that if the kids' attorney never even spoke with you about this, kids' attorney must not been too worried about it.

I am confused here. Several folks have posted that you can file a response, but you have also been told that the mediator won't read the information. I don't know, Summer. If I was you, I would organize all my concerns about the N, and evidence refutting his allegations and have it all together when you meet on November 2nd.