Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Cuttingloose · Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 24

Does anyone wonder what happended to their parents when they were children? I know there is a debate between genetics and environment in the case of NPD. As far as NM is concered I think it was the environment that had something to do with it because clues just keep coming into my head leading me to the conclusion that NM was sexually abused when she was a child.

Her father my grandfather was always making coments about women in the family as though they were his property. He did not like my mother's and her sister's husbands. In fact he threw by mother's sister's husband out one Christmas because he was of illegitimate birth.

After grandfather not acknowledging me as a child (he only related to my brother) he suddenly took an interest in me when I was 17. Once I was staying at my grandparents house and I had gone out to meet my boyfriend, when I came back at approx 11.30 pm he was waiting for me in a shop doorway down a secluded lane. When he emerged from the doorway I nearly jumped out of my skin. He didn't say anything but walked in front of me down the street making me feel guilty as though I had done something wrong. Looking back now it was very weird behaviour and the only time he had EVER acknowledged my existence.

NM talks fondly of him. She also thinks small children are 'sexual beings' and are partly to blame for sexual abuse. I have some photos of her around the age when I think it must have happened and she has scribbled herself out with a biro. When we were small she did a lot of face slapping and other cruel things like cutting my hair off and taking me to the dentist to see if she could persuade him to put a brace on my teeth. Fortunately he didn't.

When I think back to my adolescence she called me names that had a sexual connotations to them like 'slut'. She went into rages if she thought me or my brother were having sex. She was hyper vigilent accusing us willy nilly. When my brother did eventually start going out with a girlfiend she instantly didn't like her because she found out she had sex before my brother and went to see her parents to tell them their daughter was having sex with my brother. At the time I thought all of this was normal. Strangely enough she passed peculiar feelings onto me and I became upset myself when I discovered my then boyfriend had a few nude magazines. I couldn't think where these 'out of control' feelings came from but now I think I know.

Can the legacy of sexual abuse transmit down the generations? Was it safe for her to target me with psychological and emotional abuse rather than place the blame where it belonged with her own father. I know I have absolutely no proof that this happended but I feel very strongly that it did and I think it went on for some years.

baby_kay · Joined: 05 Mar 2008 Posts: 211

Cuttingloose,
You raise alot of very interesting points in your post. I was reading your story and I instantly had remembered when I thought my NM may have been sexually either molested or mistreated by my grandfather. I think that when it is in the family linage, there must be alot of emotional disorders passed down, especially when it kept secret. And going back to generations, sex, was not discused or anything like it is today.

My grandfather when I was 19, I lived in Arizona with him, and his then wife, and their 6 year daughter (my aunt), anyways, He did the same thing to me, he would say if your going to be out after midnight, call so I can leave the front door unlocked. Then I would call, let him know when I would be home, and get home and the door would always be locked. Ring the bell, wake all up, and then the next morning, he would be silent, and act like I did something wrong. I didn't get it, and he would start yelling at me, and calling me a slut, and what kind of girl stays out so long, etc. He just freaked me out. Then his daughter, the 6 year old, would crawl into bed with me, without underwear on. I would say "Lynn your not wearing panties," and she would tell me she never wore them to bed, and the sick thing is, she used to sleep with her father, my grandfather??? Yeah, questions flooded my brain. My aunt (6 year old) would get such smelly feet, she never wore socks, with her shoes, and her little feet could get real sour, and I would say, Lets wash your feet, and she would say should I just take a bath. I would say, sounds like a good idea, and then with a nervous look, she would look at me, and say "Will you bathe me, I hate when dad does". So I became like her big sister, and she was glue to me. Walk, talk, and always by my side. She was kinda spooked of my grandpa, her dad. I often thought that the reason my mom was so messed up could be that her father was most definatly inappropriate with her. So, its weird you should bring this up.
My NM hates men, and her goal is to hate all men. They are only good for her to get what she wants. She hates my husband, who is the best dad, and husband, and I am not kidding. She is 2 times divorced. She married an old man, and took his money. My NM is very much about money, control, and being the queen everything. We should all bow and kiss her ass. I am NC because, among other things, she had a physical abuse of my kids. She had anger issues, and from what I grew up knowing, her father beat his wife and kids, sometimes, within inches of their lives, so.....we have that one too.
Anyways, just thought I would share.

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

I think all NPD were badly abused, either physically, sexually or emotionally, or all of the above. As far as having a genetic predisposition...I don't know, but that also would not have been their choice. In my case I know for sure that my mother had severe emotional abuse and neglect. I don't think she was sexually abused by her father, but one time she told me that an uncle (husband of an aunt she really liked) had fondled her. Now, she saw this "uncle" many times during the summer vacations and I don't know the extent or duration of the abuse. Mainly, though, she had the mother from hell that never loved her, acknowledge her or help her, but was very able to express her feelings when they were negative and dismissive. I think there is a chain of abuse that goes down many generations, and f you have an abusive parent you are more likely to develop the same kind of pathology. Like an ACON, that doesn’t realize to be an N, all while rampaging against her/his own N parent. She/he view her parents has her/his problem without being aware of her own traits. Even if we don’t turn to be like them we still have scars and different type of problems caused by our own abuse. Our saving point is to become aware not only of our NP pathology, but also of our own problem so we can break the chain of abuse and not only live the rest of our life happier, but also raise our kids in a loving, accepting environment. At the present time, after having all of my revelations and light bulbs going on, I find very difficult to “fix” my problems. It was a lot easier to understand how I got them, then to get them undone.

Cuttingloose · Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 24

thanks Baby_Kay and Limited for your responses.

'At the present time, after having all of my revelations and light bulbs going on, I find very difficult to “fix” my problems. It was a lot easier to understand how I got them, then to get them undone'.

Limited what you write is just how I feel. I can identify some of my defense mechanisms from childhood but don't know how to change my behaviours. Fear and defensiveness are still a big part of my character. Today (I'm 47) I have difficulty in making 'real' connections with others - particularly the opposite sex and looking back I would say that has always been with me since adolescence. Fortunately I did not know it at the time. I thought my upbringing was 'normal'. Much of the time I have a deep feeling of insecurity and isolation even though there are many things in my life that I am grateful for. I think this feeling has also been with me since adolesence. I am so glad that I haven't passed this crap on to another generation of children.

NM is left with my neices quite a lot. I don't think my sister in law understands the depth of NPD and she thinks NM is a safe bet for child minding. I am worried that exposure to her will compromise thier emotional well being. My youngest neice is 4 and has to wear glasses. NM told her to tie her hair back or she will go blind! I had to shut her up!

I haven't seen her since Christmas and now it doesn't matter if I see her by chance or not because. I am simply not involved in the relationship or the games anymore. If she was sexually abused as a small child there is a part of me that feels really sorry for the loss of her emotional life and the fact that she dumped the shame, guilt, disgust and rage on her own daughter and never fostered a mother daughter relationship. She even twisted my reputation with close family and friends. God knows what she said! Probably something related to sexual deviance.

A few years ago I rang a close relative and suggested meeting for a coffee. I hadn't seen her for approx 25 years. The relative immediately rang my mother to invite her as well. Weird! Then as I was leaving I hugged everyone there and went to hug my relative's husband to say good bye and he physically recoiled. On another occassion I was talking to their daughter, my cousin, and he came and asked me what I was 'telling her'. I wished I'd have asked him what his problem was but I pretended it was ok. NM is the only person who could have spread any rumours about me.

zanderman1 · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 430

My NM's mother was a piece of work. NM doesn't talk much about her F, and neither did her two sisters. I think he left them when they were still girls, pre-teen, and I suspect that my GM drove him away. She raged, and had what I consider delusional hopes of "salvation", either her husband coming back, (Delta Dawn, what's that flower you have on?) or later, a series of non-mainstream religious convictions of Armageddon and Rapture and such. Always waiting for a magical end to her suffering, meanwhile punishing the world for being the cause of her misery. I think GM used to hit NM and her two sisters over the head with broomsticks. They were very poor, according to NM, and GM would take what little money they got from taking in washing & such, and give it to whatever church she was a member of at the time, depriving the girls of adequate food & clothing.
But my NM's two sisters did not turn out like NM. Her older sister turned out mean & opportunistic, but not N. The younger sis turned out suicidal & alcoholic, but not N.
NM's sisters were certainly emotionally damaged, but they did love, and had some honesty in their dealings with people.

limited · Joined: 16 Apr 2008 Posts: 47

Zanderman, maybe in cases like your mother and her sisters it is where individual genetic predispositions come at play. Though a big factor is that even an NP treats his children differently. Golden child vs.scapegoat, abuse in both case, but with different results.
What I find really confusing is that after being angry at my NM for years I now don't "get it" . We talk about them choosing to be abusive, and it really look like a choice...Then why are they incurable, even if they do undergo therapy?
I guess my question is: how much is unconscious and how much is free will?

Cuttingloose · Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 24

Limited, I wonder this too. How much bad behaviour are they accountable for? It seems to me that their behaviour is governed by their maligned internal feelings that are inappropriately triggered. For example, instead of feeling pride and joy when their offspring achieves something (like 'normal' parents do) they feel threatend and angry and just want to stomp on their child's happiness and burst thier bubble. So they do whatever is necessary to put their child down. (I know people on this board know this). So where are they to be held accountable? I guess they don't understand where the horrible feelings are coming from and think it is from the outside rather than the inside. They probable don't make the association about what happened to them in childhood and what their adult feelings are and they probably don't know they are not feeling a full array of feelings only negative ones ie shame, guilt, envy, rage etc. They don't know that they are not feeling love, kindness, empathy etc. because what you don't have you don't miss. If they think everyone 'feels' like they do they must be pretty paranoid as well! The only way for them to discover the full extent of their own childhood abuse and the lasting damage is to go on an internal journey to discover what happened to them. BUT maybe the reluctance to believe anything is wrong with them is another safety mechanism preventing them from finding out the horrible truth about thier abusive upbringing and what it would reveal about mum and/or dad.

I know the genetic theory is under debate too but I strongly believe there is a connection between mental health disorders and childhood abuse. Not just sexual abuse but emotional, psychological, neglect and physical. Most of all emotional. Unfortunately in our culture childhood abuse is so commonplace that it is invisible!

I'm rambling now!

thegabrielle77 · Joined: 19 Oct 2007 Posts: 384

lynn1234 · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 718

Hi Cuttingloose,

I recently pieced some things together from my NM's past. Things that she has told me, and things I heard from my uncle and grandmother..
My NM told me she was molested by a teacher who gave her private lessons.( I don't want to say what type since it would be a dead give away to anyone who knows this story) Anyway, she was in her early teens at the time and at one point she went to her parents to stop the lessons, but was made to keep going.. Her parents probably thought she was being a brat when infact she was bein abused and was too scared to tell them...
That wasn't the worst of it though. My grandfather is also an N and it seems like his father and his fathers father were also N's.. Someone in the family has given me infor about my Great Great Grandfather, Great Grandfather and ofcorse I know my grandfather so I can also speak for the fact that he is an N.. From what I know about my grandfather in my mothers childhood he was an alcoholic and emotionally distant except to praise her for her academics. He could get pissed off at her and go one month without speaking to her. (so she says) He places extreme importance at school. She excelled at everything he wanted her to and she was my N grandfathers favorite... My uncle was beaten by my uncle and I suspect from what he has hinted to that my grandfather sexually abused him.. I also remember a time when my step-dad said my Grandfather was gay during an arguement with my NM.
So, from what I know my NM grew up in a household where my NGP was beating my uncle, (poss. sexually abuseing him) and an alcoholic.. My NM's younger sister moved out of the house early around the same age that I moved out of my NM's between 14 and 15 years old..
My grandmother would cover up and look the other way to what her husband was doing... I know my NM started acting out by bullying and beating up on her brother.. I guess she figured if it is ok for her dad to do it than she can treat him like a wimp and abuse him physically too.
My NM takes pride in stories she tells of beating up her brother and speaks with glee about the day he got some balls and faught back.. She knew she had it coming and she could care less how that made her brother feel... My grandmother did a good job of keeping the kids from getting close to eachother...probably so that she could keep control over them and not let them raise an objection together... My grandmother did not protect her kids or allow the siblings to bond natrually.. I think without a place to feel safe and a sibling or friend to love her my NM turned inward to herself.. where she could feel safe and in controll.. I think a lot of her N behavior is supressed anger and hurt from the past and an unwillingness to see the good in the world but to view the world as a hostile place. I think that is how she created her grandoise personality where she is in controll, and nothing or nobody will hurt her.. but she will be the first person to lash out and drive you away.. I also think she fears intimacy and also may have a genetic component to being an N...
Just my take on it....

lynn1234 · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 718

Cuttingloose...
I agree with you.. The fact that N's think everyone is like them and have a limited array of emotions.. mainly negative and not being able to be empathetic, show kindness or love to people.. I also agree that this is what makes them paranoid... with this paranoia I think it is hard to let their guard down.. and I agee that they don't want to look out themselves and change anything bad that they see about themselves.. their pride doesn't allow them to look inward and change...
To some degree I think some of us Acons have trust issues too. I know I do.. I had a hard time even letting my guard down for many years with my husband.. and having a hyper critical mother who was always saying sarcastic mean crap to me made me think that any criticism or suggestion by someone was coming from a place of hatred, malice, disgust and annoyance with me rather than someone just giving their two cents and being helpful.. Needless to say I had an authority issue for many years that has finally mostly gone away...thanks to the love, support and kindness I was given from my husband...
My husband was the first person to teach me and show me what love is by his actions.. not till recently did I start to understand that I also have some walls up.. slowly they have been coming down...I don't think that

lynn1234 · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 718

I don't think that N's have the same self-awarness or if they do they just don't want to change and don't care how they effect other people, having a lack of empathy.. Maybe it's a combo of the two..
But a friend of mine recently said that they are like lights in a house.. The lights are on but there is no electricity running through.. It's like a weird facade... They mirror what they think we want to see.. they mirror love and kindness without the feelings behind the actions...sometimes I think I see a spark of kindness and love but then realize it was still selfish on their part... I think my NM is evil but mainly as a result of having shut down and shut out the world mainly due to her own horrific childhood..
I think she would be a different person having grown up differently...
In that respect I pitty her and mourn the person she could have been...It also makes me want to punch my grandfather in the nose.. for creating a monster.. but violence never solves anything.. it's better to take a peaceful route.. Thanks for listening to my long speal!

Cuttingloose · Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 24

Hi everyone, I just had to reply to a couple of posts.

TheGabrielle77. I think what you write is spot on. No one has the right to abuse another person and we ACONS have chosen not to go down that path. But my point is Ns perhaps (who knows for sure) don't make fully thought out conscience choices. They are unaware of what is driving them to abuse and therefore simply carry on thinking that acting on their displaced feelings is ok. Particularly where children are concerned because they can pass abuse off as discipline. I know that's what my mother did. She though a slap in the face was suitable punishment for all kinds of innocent mistakes. The difference between ACONS and Ns is that ACONS are more intouch with their feelings and have access to understand why they are feeling sad, happy etc. and therefore can make conscience choices about how to behave With Nars the pathway is most probably cut off and they are NOT feeling authentic emotions at all. I imagine their emotions to be completely jumbled. This is in no way excusing their behaviour but just trying to understand it. In my view if they can't ever recover the best plan is for people to get away and keep away from the abuse. From personal experience I feel so much better practicing NC.

Lynn 1234 you rasie a point about them not caring about others because they have no empathy. It's true that their lack of concern and caring is outragous particularly towards their own children. The idealisation and devaluation cycle is horrible for young children to endure. My take on it is they CAN'T care. They don't know what it is. They don't possess empathy and this is refelected in their callousness. Having said all this it's not black and white, and some Ns probably 'feel' more than others. The extreem end of the continuum would be a sociopath I guess.

lynn1234 · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 718

Cuttingloose,
I agree with you. They can't empathize. Whenever they do something that seems kind it's just a show or they are trying to butter us up for something down the road...Everyone is just supply to them.. A vampire is a good analogy...they take from their victims and then move on to the next poor trusting soul and take from them to... Crying or Very sad

Everything they do is calculated... strange way to be in the world...

lynn1234 · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 718

Cuttingloose... I meant to say that I agree.. they cant care.. I said empathize but I meant care.. both are related any-how..

zanderman1 · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 430

Cutting Loose--great insight into where that "N paranoia" comes from! They must figure everyone is just pretending to be loving, caring people, with no feeling behind the actions . . . just like them! Wow, what a bleak, sterile world they must live in. Anybody old enough (& hip enough) to remember a 1970s Les McCann song called "How Can You Live Without Love?"

thegabrielle--interesting quote. A lot of it really hit the recognition button in me, altho "Phase 1--tension building" and "Phase 2--the incident" doesn't quite seem to fit the pattern of the miserable and stormy relationship with my mother. With me & my NM, I don't recall any pattern of tension building, it seems more like bombs were dropped at random. Regarding Phase 2, the anger usually came from me, while she played the innocent victim, and I was never able to really articulate why I was so MAD, or say what she had done "wrong'. She was rarely overtly abusive, she would usually just exasperate me to the exploding point, making ME the apparent abuser.
Though I think she was more overt when I was very little (screaming, violence, etc.), becoming gradually sneakier and more cunning as I got older.
Anyway, I wasn't sure that quote even related to me until I got to the "how the Cycle of Abuse affects you" part, then I just went down the list -- check, check, check -- except the "isolation" one. I know I was abused in some way, I just can't say exactly how.

limited -- "Zanderman, maybe in cases like your mother and her sisters it is where individual genetic predispositions come at play. Though a big factor is that even an NP treats his children differently. Golden child vs.scapegoat, abuse in both case, but with different results. " Yeah, I think that's right. Genetic predispoition + different treatment = different dysfunctions. My NM was the middle child, her older sis was the "boss" of the other two, and younger sis was the cute one who found some refuge in the company of others outside the family.