Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1371 Location: Connecticut, USA

I'm struggling with knowing when to give up. The emotional turmoil is destroying me. I am losing my balance, my strength, and I'm afraid my very sanity. I have heard it said many times here that people have taken great financial losses just to get away from the N. How do I know where to draw the line, when to protect my emotional life, sacrificing my material life to do it. I think I might have reached that point.

I don't see how we can possibly settle anything in this divorce. Negotiation won't work, any proposal I make will be rejected just because I was the one to propose it. Anything he can do to sabotage or delay a settlement, he will do. I am ready to just cut my losses and move on. What if I propose that we take what we each have now, no money transfers, no alimony, just call it even and call it quits? I don't pay him for the house, he doesn't pay me for the business. We close the business, dissolve it. I just want off of this roller coaster.

Those of you who chose to accept financial losses, how did you decide it was time to make that choice?

LeaveLone · Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 100

Nancy,

One of the reasons there are COURTS is so that you have some protection against exactly what you are proposing.

Even if you gave it all up, if you gave it willingly, he'd come after more.

The N's want to see us destroyed: emotionally, mentally, psychologically. Mine wanted to ruin me personally and professionally. He destroyed a budding NATIONAL business that I had developed -- one that seeks to do good things (can't give you more details than that in this forum). I'm trying to rebuild that because 1) I believe in it and the business' purpose and 2) I won't let him win.

He tried to isolate me personally, slandering me publicly in any way he could. AGain, did a GREAT job of it because he used mass media. ALL my friends from the "old days" are gone and think I'm a pariah.

I've had to rebuild that part of my life, too. And, the good news is, so much of my life now is so much better than it was, than it ever could be.

But, I've had to run the gauntlet. I've been beaten, battered, bruised. I had days where I couldn't imagine being able to take another step forward. I've lost many tens of thousands of dollars to legal fees. I was poorer than what this country considers the poverty limit, not knowing how to keep a roof over my kids' heads. I've been so to the breaking point that I thought I was the crazy one and feared for my health because of the stress I was going through.

YEARS of that. But, I didn't give up. Couldn't let him ruin me. Couldn't let him continue to control me. Giving up would have meant letting him win, and as WRONG as he was to do it, I couldn't let him win.

Do not quit unless you KNOW in your heart that you won't regret it. Won't feel like you copped out because you caved in. WHat he can't take from you is self-respect, and you won't have that if you let him win.

You think you don't have the strength to go on, but you do. You may not believe it right now, but in an hour, a day, a week...you'll feel better and you'll get angry and that anger will help you take the next step.

Don't LET the bastard win. He's a creep, he's a lowlife, and NO ONE has the right to treat you that way...much less get away with it.

As my daughter's coach told her several weeks' ago: "Channel your inner monster."

We're here...you're not alone, and we know you can DO it.

LL

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

I know it isn't fair for me to say anything here. But when I read your subject line, my first thought was NOT NOW! You aren't in this to "win", you are in it for justice.

Negotiation is just another form of NS. Is there a court date scheduled?

One more thing, even if you give up, there will still be emotional turmoil. It could haunt you for years to come if you give up now. Just a thought. Of course only you know if it is really time.

Hang in there, whatever you decide.
_________________
Sail on silvergirl,
Sail on by.
Your time has come to shine.
-Paul Simon

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Nancy, I have read most of your postings here and I feel you are basically a very strong person. OK so you're at a very low ebb at present but don't give up, you CAN win in the end against an N. Try to see it through to the court stage at least, you may be pleasantly surprised, it's not all doom and gloom. At one stage my D was ready to give up as she could not take any more, with her N using every trick in the book (as only they know how). She was ready to give up the house and everything but I persuaded her to keep going. Eventually, N came out in his true self at court and virtually destroyed himself with his nonsense. My D came out of it with the house, the children, virtually everything and most of all she regained her self respect. Don't let this bstd grind you down, you are twice the person he is and you have all the support possible on this site.
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livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 965

I posted a reply earlier, then decided to delete it because I felt it might be too negative.

I just want to say -- if an N wants to battle with you, backing down on the settlement will not stop the battles. I feel he will get a high from you backing down, then it will be something else. What next? He will ask for sole custody of the children? He wants you to feel like giving up, he can control you that way, and continue to interact with you. I don't mean to be negative, I just learned this lesson myself the hard way.

Trinity · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 97

I have to think about how to answer this question...... Reason being is that I for one lost my and my daughters home along with thousands of dollars of legal fees......... In the end...it was and is the best outcome form me.

Till then, I fought....I won MANY LONG, HARD battles...and probably could have taken him back to court for my half of what the house would've sold for...but I cut my losses along with HIM and I JUST KNEW and felt at peace inside.

I also have read your posts and feel you are very strong. I see how right now you are in a lull and when you are down, it is sooo hard to pull yourself up.... You need to ask yourself, what do you want out of this and GO FOR IT. If it is the business fight AND FIGHT! What do you think YOU can handle? If you think you move on without money transfers, alimony etc......then I say move in that direction....but if you feel like you need to fight for those things than FIGHT WITH EVERYTHING YOU HAVE!

You do what is best for YOU...Don't let him make this decision for you..... Yes, he can do things to emotionally drain you...but you either can or can not deal with it and keep moving...and only you can gauge that.....

When I was where you are right now...I was falling apart... I was so emotionally, physically and financially wrecked, I didn't know if I would wake up in the morning.......

There is nothing they want more, than for you to go running to them with open arms....so they feel like they have complete control over you. It has nothing to do with anything else...... Court continuances, the kids, money......it's all CONTROL. Once the decisions are made, courts over, there is a visitation schedule in place...IT'S OVER and that's not a point he wants to get to because he loses his control. The quicker you can get to the end....the better.....

Sure...he will try to fling the kids at you after...just follow the court orders and he doesn't have anything to hold against you.......

There is no settling with them........not unless you gave them EVERYTHING They wanted....and again, they only want one thing...control over you...........

No matter what you choose.....do it for YOU! Because YOU CAN DO IT! Fight or cut your losses..... YOU CAN DO THIS.... He needs to get gone! And "channel your inner monster" and do it! He's not worth my breath to tell you what he is.......there isn't anything low enough to describe him..... YOU CAN DO IT!

Shadey Lady · Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 172

Dearest Nancy,

The answer you are looking for is, unfortunately, a personal one. I wish there was a formula for us to work with, but there isn't.

I too was going crazy with all the stress during the divorce. My health was being affected by all the stress. I tend to be a worry wart and so I was stressed to the max.

I finally decided that I would make a proposal to N. I looked at my family and my situation, which is different than many people's. We lived on a farm, that we had purchased from N's grandparents. If you are a "farm" person you know that there is a tremendous pull to the land. In my own family, my brother purchased my own grandparent's ranch and when he divorced two years after purchasing it, his ex wanted her half right now, so my brother had to sell the "family farm". We had all been excited that it was going to stay in the family, and then it was gone. So in my divorce, I did not want to be the bad guy to the family. I had some independent income from some property that I had inherited, so I knew I could survive on that. So I gave N the farm. Between the land, equipment, animals and crops, plus a loan that N owed me, I walked away from just under $100,000. Of course, N thinks that I still should be paying him, because the information he gave the lawyer about my inheritence was wrong, so his lawyer gave him incorrect advice. But then, what did I expect?

The thing is, that had I pushed for N to pay me what he owed, he would have had to have sold some of the land. THen the property that was left would have made it harder to support a family on the farm. Plus, my sons farmed with N, so in essence I could have ruined it for them. I finally had to decide that there would be more damage to the family financially if I took my share, than if I left it to N. Ultimately I hope the kids will inherit the land anyway, so I just took myself out of the equation.

I suppose you could make up a balance sheet and see where it comes out. You already know that N wants more than his half. What do you want that you cannot live without? for everyone it is different. If you want the kids and not the property, then stand firm on that. If you want the furniture but hate the house, then take the furniture. Everyone has different needs. You have to decide what yours are.

You do have lots of support on this site. But try to get some advice from someone close to you, who can help you make a decision when you are not so emotional. So many of us are so upset and worn down and worried and exhausted both mentally and physically that we are willing to do anything to make it stop. We give in and give up.

I also "tricked" my N. I had proposed a property division for the divorce. N would not answer the letters, so my lawyer and I asssumed that he was not interested. Typical NH response, just to bury his head and assume that because he didn't want something, it wasn't going to happen. Anyway, after N would not allow the appraisers on the place, he apparently talked to his lawyer, who told him he had to do something, so N offered me a legal separation " with the hopes of reconciliation, joint counseling or staying married but separated." The clauses he added were legally non binding, so I took the separation. ( N thought that I was agreeing to the counseling ( that I had begged him to go to for over 10 years but he had refused to go. Too little too late)) That stopped the financial hemorrhage, ( we didn't have to have more lawyers, mediation, appraisals and court costs), plus it put N in a better ( I hesitate to use the word good) frame of mind, because he thought he won something. We settled the property issue, the child support issue and all the other things at that time. Then in my state, 6 months after a legal separation, you can petition for a divorce, which is just a matter of filing a paper at the courthouse.

I don't know if any of this helps. Each one of us has to make these decisions and they are never easy. Divorce is messy with a normal person and it is hell with an N. I'm praying for you...

Peace, Shadey Lady

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1371 Location: Connecticut, USA

Thank you for all your thoughtful and supportive responses. I've come to realize that this divorce battle is both a terrific source of NS for him, and also continuously wounds his N self-image, making him more and more dangerous all the time. It's not just a matter of feeling weak and beaten, I think that cutting my losses and severing this quickly could be a good, rational choice. My kids won't starve, and I can move forward with my life instead of being stuck in this hell indefinitely. The money honestly might not be worth fighting for.

If my goal is to stop him from doing more damage to me, I think the emotional damage is worse than the financial. I'm willing to take the financial hit. I'm not willing to let him do any more emotional damage to me. I think the best way to prevent it is to get this over with quickly. When I talked to my lawyer about this, she said that from her experience the one who wants the divorce the most is willing to give up the most. We all know he want to drag this out because then he has some control over me. If I walk away from the battle, I win. My lawyer said to sleep on it, I might feel differently tomorrow, but I suspect that I have reached a decision here.

I don't want to fight him with everything I have. That's not where I want to channel my energy. I want to channel it into something positive - my future. I want to get this over with and begin my healing process. Lord knows I have lots of that to do, so I might as well get it started. I don't want to spend that much energy on anything to do with him.

If I needed the money to survive and to care for my kids, of course I would go after it. It would be a matter of survival. But if I want to go after the money because of all that he has already done to me, nothing good can come of it. I suspect that my motivation for chasing it is to prove that there must be consequences for his actions. In reality, I have no control over that. There will be consequences, I'm sure of that, but it's not up to me to dish it out, it's up to God.

Determine what I want and go for it - I want to move on. More than anything.

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Nancy, just picking up on something you said about 'energy medicine'. My D started to go to meditation classes and said it helped enourmously. She also went line dancing and salsa dancing and it all helped her through the intensive stress she was under. So, whatever you decide, try to find the time to go to the classes and take up some outside interests.
Best wishes
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livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 965

Nancy,

You need to do what's best for you and your boys. Only you really know what that is.

For what it's worth, I do think it's a good idea to stop the negotiations. Clearly, the N isn't negotiating, he is playing a game. With the ExN here, it finally got to the point that anytime a settlement conference was scheduled, I just told myself "I DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS." Hated to quote GW Bush, but it was a good reminder to myself of what the ExN was really all about.

You will find a way to get back to school. Maybe you can find a part-time position through the university that doesn't pay half bad. Maybe work as a private tutor for undergrads or something. I finished up my bachelor's degree while working full time at the univeristy and the nicest part of it is that the school paid for one of my classes each semester.

Good luck.

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1371 Location: Connecticut, USA

I am currently pursuing so many outside interests that my calendar is filled. I now have 2 different therapists (the new one does energy healing, but she's not the one who led the introductory class I went to), I am meeting with our old couples therapist to do Byron Katie's "The Work" together, I have weekly guitar lessons, weekly mandolin lessons, biweekly quilting classes, I'm about to sign up with another mandolin teacher, the energy medicine classes I learned about last night, and wholistic cooking classes. I am a rabid gardener. I joined a book discussion group, I'm reading about sustainable agriculture and local economy, as well as some Jungian psychology books about mid-life. I bought season tickets to the local reperatory theater, and I attend classes and organized walks at the local nature conservancy whenever it fits my busy schedule.

THIS is the action plan for me - grow, heal, move on.

I have enough money to make it through the next year of school without additional income. For some reason, it's hard for me to say that. It makes me feel like a whiner when I compare my situation to those who find themselves without a pot to pee in during a divorce. So you see, chasing the money is not paramount to my survival. It isn't about the money. If I pursued it and won it just to keep him from screwing me, I could give away all the winnings and my life would be no different. I was already thinking that the battered women's shelter could probably use a boost.

The one thing I can say for my XN is that he was a good provider. He was always very good at making money. I can thank my lucky stars for that now.

vmm · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 185

vmm · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 185

This is the abuse. Fiancial. Since he is not "hitting" you or the kids, he is better able to hide it from the court, unless you bring it forward and state he has taken the potential upper middle class life of the children away from them, flushing it down the toilet, by shutting down the family business, without telling you, the only income the family has had for ? years. If he is going to do this, then the court should kindly send N back to work to support his children.

One of the ways that my N got away with this is he armed himself with people to write threatening letters and reports against me. He pushed and pushed me to sign things but never signed anything. My N also did many white collar criminal things to me, my sister and my moms finances. (as I believe your N has done by contacting clients shutting down your buisness without a bill of sale from you)

The reason my N got away with it is because there were no official court orders until 2.5 years into my divorce. Because there were no court orders, I could not file contempt of court. N had broken no court orders.

N knew this at the time, but I did not. So he threatened and manipulated me "using the courts" without having himself being accountable to them.

Knowing this now, in retrospect, I would have had him in court the first month "under court orders". Only then would I have been able to file contempt when he did not pay support for months and refused to pick my children up for his visitations for weeks at a time.

Also, what I was told later, but I am not sure, is once you sign an agreement, the court can not overrule it or change an agreement between two people. Again not sure, so ask your attny. The agreements I signed were for vocational and custody evaluations. I now would have forced the judge to order them, then I would have had a chance to get in front of the judge and document Ns actions to the court and get orders early on.

I fought hard, because I had to. N told his first attny that he would not stop "until I was rolling in the gutter". In hindsight, I should have stopped negotiations right then, taken an emergency court actions to get support on the high income and document a custody schedule so that N would have been in contempt of court when he did not pick up the children for weeks at a time. But my attny told me to play nice. My opion now, looking back, is playing nice made alot less work for my attny. And alot more money for attny - 1.5 years more of negotiation meeting, where I paid my attny. He never filed anything, and took notes my N wringed me through "negotiation meetings". BTW N never did anything he had negotiated the week before. Always wrote a follow up letter, totally twisting what we had negotiated. You were right about the tape recorder. Maybe get that back at these meetings.

This is why I advocate getting some other help on the busines, even if to keep our attny in check. You don't have to keep businesit, but if N isn't going to work the buiness, don't allow N excused from a return to work order. If there is so much cash, that he can retire then where is your half. Does N get to keep it over your head during all these "negotiations".

My personal suspision is that N wants the business destroyed so you cannot work it, be there for the kids and go to school. Then will go after your house, stating you will have no business income to make the payments and he doesn't want it forclosed on with the children there. Since he has the house, he doesn't want the children disrupted so they should stay there with him. After all he is there home all day and can meet their every need while you are working. Ns will give you one slap at a time, withholding the next slap until after they have won the current slap by beating you down and strong arming you til you give in to them. This is the abuse. No facial scars, just emotional one.

Once I found uot about Ns. I stoped giving in. I made him fight for every slap win to me, because I knew the next one was coming anyway.

I fought hard because I knew that if N had custody control and financial control of my children, he would destroy them emotionally as he did daily to me. I was able to maintain the greater custody and got 1/10th child support as the state formulas said I should have because my attny wanted to play nice.

I agree that people close to you are the best to help ou decide what path to take. My family supported my wanted to defend myself because they knew his actions were devasting to the children. Mine would leave them alone at the house, in the car, let them have broken limbs, pain and high temps for days without medical attention and exposed them to his internet sex friends. Again, no scars, abianent abuse. I was refused full cusotdy only because my attny did not file for full legal custody as I told him to. I knew in my heart that there was enough potential damage to fight N for regarding the children. And I needed my money back from him in order to afford fighting him. So this is some of my story, if it helps. N attacked me at the finances to weaken me and waste time in meetings to hide all of his abuses to the children.

dagna · Joined: 18 Apr 2007 Posts: 493

I think it is wise just to go to trial. I don't think of this as 'giving up' .

Sometime I should tell the story about what happened when I had someone come in to cleanse out the negative energy from my basement/house. It was really telling.
_________________
Sail on silvergirl,
Sail on by.
Your time has come to shine.
-Paul Simon

Trinity · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 97