Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

from a quick scan of the forum looks like its mainly women, would be interesting to get persepctive from another man too

anyway

as a self defence instructor who spends his days teaching people how to protect themselves from others who would do them harm Ive found it difficult to be totally defeated by one little narcissist to the point were I very nearly lost the will to live (I didnt, but its the closest Ive been).

Not only was the relationship painful, confusing and debilitating, but the notion of a girl 10 years my junior bringing me to my knees does not fit with my macho self image!


joking aside I would say the last few years have been the hardest for me emotionally, I really did think I was starting to go mad

until I learnt about NPD and realised that other people have suffered and do suffer at the hands of NPs

Im lookin forward to reading through the site, just knowing its here is a big boost

thanks for hosting it, your doing great work

Mine was a female.

Cunning deceptive lying and fake

Affirmative.

Your not on your own Vince.

It seems many that many women have recognized that they have been involved with an N and perhaps most men have thought they have been involved with just a crazy woman.

Hence.... I think most men don't subscribe to find out what happened and perhaps that's why there are so many women posters!

It took me several years to find out what had happened.

I still have to cope with it as I have a lovely daughter with the x....so I still have to play the game to see my daughter grow up and it is never easy...

My ex was female - considerably younger - not as smart (intellectually) - but took me almost a year of trying everything with her to build/improve the relationship, and spending lots of time online trying to figure out what the hell was going on before I gained some understanding. She had me thinking I was the crazy/N one. Anyway, there are a couple other guys here - could search for posts (using exgf or exNgf or something like that - or just search for posts by the people who reply here if you want more info/background).

Ah yes, you can include me.

Dealing with N wife.

I'm a girl, but my ex is another girl and she was some insane combination of narcissism and psychopathy. Whatever it is, it's messed up. She terrified me more at 20 than my BPD father in full rage at 6 years old. You're not alone!

Welcome Vince, kick your feet up, there is plenty of wisdom here.

I was with a BPD for 2 months, felt like years. It knocked me out. I ended up confiding in a woman friend who then used me to get out of her situation and then she d&d'd me. It's been a six month struggle to understand where I am. Now I'm NC and moving on.

I'm learning about myself through a psychologist too, just gives me that little extra edge on my own personality, and who I am.

Take your time Vince, you'll get there sometime.

Joefromfar

My brother, I believe, is married to an NP. She has made him sever ties with his family. I haven't seen or spoken to him in several years. I really think his wife may be dangerous, but we've been completely cut out of their lives. She won't even allow him to contact his daughter from a previous marriage, who is as sweet and lovely a girl as anyone could hope to have as a daughter.

My BIL is also married to a woman who fits the N description, though she doesn't seem to have the P tendencies of my brother's wife. This N SIL has wreaked havoc in our lives for 15 years. The thing I don't understand is how this childish, self-centered woman gets everyone dancing to her tune - not just the man she's married to, but everyone around her. Her husband won't say a word against her, I guess to avoid having to pay the price of her wrath when/if he stands up for himself. I also get the feeling that he thinks it would be more shameful to have a failed marriage than to just grin and bear it. His family growing up was always taught the importance of "doing the right thing" and not giving up no matter what. It seems to me that that philosophy has worked to destroy him. His usual expression is the saddest of anyone I've ever seen. He never looks happy. He looks defeated.

So I'm happy for you that you see it for what it is. I really wish these two men in my family could see what is being done to them, that it really is abuse. It is really very painful to watch, to see such goodhearted kind men being taken advantage of til they become a hollow shell. I think the fact that that they ARE such goodhearted kind people is what made the Ns choose them.

agreenbough wrote:So I'm happy for you that you see it for what it is. I really wish these two men in my family could see what is being done to them, that it really is abuse. It is really very painful to watch, to see such goodhearted kind men being taken advantage of til they become a hollow shell. I think the fact that that they ARE such goodhearted kind people is what made the Ns choose them.

Sorry. :(

--

Is there anything that can be done to stop this? (in specific cases or in general) Is it just a case of having to let people make their own mistakes and learn (or not) from them (ie. live and let live)? Or is there some sort of grassroots awareness/education that could be done to help people in these situations and/or reduce it from happening in the future. I don't know why this is such a big thing for me, but people abusing others *really* bugs me - and I'd like to do something to stop it if I could - but I'm not sure what, that would have the desired affect instead of something opposite/worse. I can think of things like having couples get therapy before having kids, or having kids in therapy when they're younger, or teaching something about this in schools, or having laws that cover emotional abuse (I know, not easy but...), etc.

essdee

I have often thought that also. Why aren't these disorders more disclosd to the public. When in search some time ago - I couldn't help but ask why was it so difficult to find this information - why wasn't it more readily available. Even with two different marriage counsellors no one mentioned NPD.

If it wasn't for the invention of the internet, I doubt I would found this.

Not sure what can be done about it, but like you I don't understand why it is not more available for people to know about. Especially in what I feel are times were N behaviour appears to be popular, only need to look at what children are being governed by today as appropriate behaviour.

TIRED1 wrote:If it wasn't for the invention of the internet, I doubt I would found this.

Ditto. After more than 6 mths talking about this weekly with a therapist - I was the one who had to tell her that's what I thought it might be.

Not sure what can be done about it, but like you I don't understand why it is not more available for people to know about. Especially in what I feel are times were N behaviour appears to be popular, only need to look at what children are being governed by today as appropriate behaviour.

Ok, so I'm serious about this. I'm not just whining/complaining/all-talk (I've done enough of that in the past ;) - I'm ready and willing to do something to help, if I/we can figure out what that is. Form a proactive/preventative group? Go around the country giving lectures? Get on TV somehow? Search online everywhere and reply to anyone that seems they are struggling in a possible NPD relationship? Blog like crazy?

I just don't know what would do the most good - and not simply come off as pestering, telling people what to do, etc. And as you alluded to, it's going to be one hell of a battle with today's society tending so much towards N'ness. I have to say tho - I haven't found my passion yet - and this comes as close as anything so far.

Btw, I have a minor in psyc (major in CompSci) - was considering going back to school for maybe M. in psyc.

Go back to school - all education is good. Then come back and teach the rest of us. :)))

I am not sure how you go about spreading this news - or even if the world is ready to hear it. Although I must say if someone was running a seminar on NPD - advising specifics of the disorder, and how to handle, observe etc I would certainly attend.

I have, since knowing about NPD, made a special effort to make new friends unknown to my NW and have been meeting with them for lunches, coffees etc. Nothing underhanded, just talking with some nice people that are happy to spend some time with me. Actually I am a little surprised how many are interested. It was a recommendation from my pysc - and she was right. I needed to get away from the circle my W created and controlled, and I needed some real mature adult conversation.

The point is that one of these new acquaintences works for a company which does pysc assessments for companies on staff - mainly new recruits and she mentioned that due to downturn business wasn't so flash as demand for these services has declined. I said can you make an assessment which identifies personality traits and disorders. She laughed and said most things were possible. I then went on to say that it would be great if we could all have a test before we enter a relationship. Many do STD tests, other pre nups, some churches ask you to do some pre marriage counselling etc etc. Why not a pysc evaluation - makes sense to me. :)))

Given we can't tattoo NPD on their heads (as much as would like to) - it could be valuable source - assuming you can do this. I then went on the net and I can't recall the company - but a large one has a test of this nature. Not sure what it costs - but wouldn't it be great if we could all know this sort of information before we got involved in a relationship. Appreciate it would possibly take some things out of the equation - but given what most of us have been through - that may be a blessing.

I've struggled with trying to find a way to help my BIL see that he's being mistreated and that that's not the way marriage is supposed to be. I've struggled with the idea that I should mind my own business, but hating to see someone suffer makes it hard to look the other way. But I just can't figure out what, if anything, I should do.

My husband emailed a friend of my BIL with some information about NPD, in the hopes that BIL would at least find someone to confide in who knew what was going on (despite the fact that N SIL has already told this friend to stop calling because he's taking BIL's attention away from family). But the friend emailed back saying, "Yes the NPD description fits her to a tee, but so what? You can't ask BIL to choose between his wife and his family." In other words, the friend missed the point entirely. Of course you can't expect someone to make a choice like that, to be tugged in two different directions trying to please everyone. But the choice isn't between the disordered person and everyone else - the choice is between allowing yourself to be enslaved to a disordered person who takes and takes but never gives, and choosing to be loyal to your own self, finding some peace and happiness for yourself that you deserve, away from the unnecessary drama and chaos.

We were all at a wedding recently and the minister read the "wives submit to your husbands" passage. While waiting for the receiving line to finish up, N SIL said to BIL, "Did you hear that about submitting? That means YOU need to submit." For crying out loud - that's like telling a lemon it needs to be more yellow!!

agreenbough wrote:My husband emailed a friend of my BIL with some information about NPD, in the hopes that BIL would at least find someone to confide in who knew what was going on

That seems like a good idea - sorry it didn't work.

So I guess... we can only help people who *want* to be helped. Along with that goes all the issues about love being blind, fear of being alone, not knowing things could be better, being addicted to drama/mistreatment, etc. So the easiest people to help are those that know something's wrong but not sure what. Then there's the people who would choose something better if they were aware it's available. And then there's the people no one can help because they stubbornly refuse to acknowledge reality regardless of what others say/do.

The other part is that somehow we have to show that we are doing this to help *them*, not for our own selfish motives. It's not so we can [only] get something we want but also because we truly want the best for them and want them to be happy.

Ok will think a bit more on this.

I wrote to Oprah, suggesting she do a show on NPD and how it affects others/ red flags/etc.

My therapist said that there was definitely something wrong with him, but she never suggested NPD. I stumbled on NPD after googling "emotional rape" while I was being stalked. Then it all clicked into place...

babs thats awesome! I'll write Oprah too. You know if we get enough people to do it. And we are the "stronger" ones that got out or are trying. Imagine the many that need a voice.
I had no clue and only stumbled upon N because I was searching for a whole month on differernt behaviors and didnt quite know yet. I just had to figure out what it was that was going on in my life.
Then it all clicked, all the Ns behaviors and the emotions I was working through, FOG and all, it just happened like that. AH HA

Vince,

It's true the forum has a lot of women on it. Early research on NPD was conducted in prisons so the early research focused more on men. I think there are really more women "N"s out there than the research indicates. (1 in 4 are women according to the early research).

My story is much too long to relate here but that are several posts dealing with the NPD and other co morbidities associated with my XN.
There are definitely some of them out there that are women.

Zin

Emailing Oprah was a great idea! I'll do it too. Heck I'll even go on the show if they have one! :) Could email Dr Phil too - but I have a feeling he's already had a few Ns on there already... (will search to see if he's had a whole episode about it)

Hi
Mine was female too. They are just as destructive and emotionally dead as male n's.

After reading all of your posts, I am so encourged that some of you thought about exposing this on national TV. This a great idea.

I am a female who just wasted 6 years of my life with a N/P (did'nt know what this was until I found out about him lying and cheating on me). Most of my friends and family have been super supportive, but some really can't get their heads around this kind of behaviour disorder to truly see how destructive and toxic that it is.

Not only did I get myself involved with the N/P at my job, but my direct female superivor was also a N/P. These two idiots got intimately involved and were both lying to me at the same time and playing all these mind games on me. I really think they wanted to make me go insane, and enjoyed it.

I am now thankfully cut him out of my life and the female N/P is gone from this office and works in another part of the company. He also works in another office of my company. I warned him if he contacts me again I will report him to the police for stalking.

I would so much like to see a show aired on TV for the public to be aware of this monsters. It should be exposed as much as possible.


Songcatcher

babs1 wrote:I wrote to Oprah, suggesting she do a show on NPD and how it affects others/ red flags/etc.

I just came across an article that contains a bit of irony related to what we're discussing (and maybe explains why she hasn't done a show on it yet?) - this is at the bottom of the first page...

“That kind of grandiosity eats relationships,” says Terry Real, a therapist and relationship expert. Real believes in a more radical way of teaching people to let go of an overinflated sense of self. Call it the anti-Oprah school of thought.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and- ... etter-sex/

(btw, the article doesn't answer the q posed in the title :-O )

agreenbough-

your story sounds exactly like that of my dad, who is married to an N. In the ACON section, I wrote a question about how to go about "talking to" my dad. My sister and I want to bring this information to light for him, because we know he is not aware-he is beat down and defeated. He will no doubt be defensive of his wife though. He too was raised to "do the right thing" and felt guilty to the point of suicidal tendencies when my mom left him to be with her lesbian lover. HE felt guilt for the marriage failing. (she was BPD). NOW, he has been with N for 20 years. I am trying to think, if he died tomorrow, would I have tried everything i could to help him? Have I been supportive or just resentful that he always defends her and has never taken up for me in his life? I have been angry he wont take up for himself or me. I want to offer support and a new relationship with my dad, while drawing the line that I am no longer willing to participate in their fantasy, or be around her. At all. EVER. I want NC with her, but to somehow show my dad what has happened to him, and offer him the option to separate from her and move back to our state(she moved him off farfrom his family so she coudl control every aspect of his life)

I imagine he will be defensive at first, but may read the literature my sister and I plan to give him. Maybe over time he will realize. Do any of you men on here relate to being totally in denial for 20 (well, 40 really) years? If so, what would you have loved for your adult daughters to do that would have helped you? What did you TRULY wish for? We really wonder about this about my dad because he seems absolutely miserable, but if you mention the smallest thing about not liking how she treats him he totally jumps to her defense and says we just don't understand her.

Happy20Go03Lucky wrote:(she was BPD). NOW, he has been with N for 20 years.

So is he a rescuer/fixer/caretaker? Doesn't feel good about himself for something he did, or the way he was raised? The more you can understand his reasons/motivations, the more effective you can be talking with him.

I am trying to think, if he died tomorrow, would I have tried everything i could to help him? Have I been supportive or just resentful that he always defends her and has never taken up for me in his life? I have been angry he wont take up for himself or me.

I can tell it's been tough on you - and that you really love/care about him. It's very good that you're being clear on what's going on with you - and asking questions like you are. And trying to figure out the best way to go about this.

I imagine he will be defensive at first, but may read the literature my sister and I plan to give him. Maybe over time he will realize. Do any of you men on here relate to being totally in denial for 20 (well, 40 really) years? If so, what would you have loved for your adult daughters to do that would have helped you? What did you TRULY wish for? We really wonder about this about my dad because he seems absolutely miserable, but if you mention the smallest thing about not liking how she treats him he totally jumps to her defense and says we just don't understand her.

It's definitely tricky. I'm not 40 yet and my N-ship (non-relationship with an N) was short so I wasn't in denial very long (well, not about THAT ). But I have a friend I've been trying trying to help who is with a BPD, so if you don't mind my opinion... It's going to take a good amount of love, effort, time, etc - you're going to have to try different approaches (maybe some even repeatedly), you have to express yourself clearly/accurate/lovingly - how things are affecting YOU, how much you care about him, and want him to be happy, etc - but then listen to everything he has to say - sometimes he might get mad and defensive, but you'll have to stick it out and ride the conflict until it gets better (and not get mad/defensive yourself) - other times, you'll just have to let it be for the time being. There may be some magical thing (something you say or do) that suddenly gets through to him - but it's not likely that will be towards the outset. He's married, been in denial, for a long time, has character traits that attract him to people like this (so you may be attacking/threatening his choices, his self-respect, his pride, etc) - and then then there's the control Ns have over their targets (which can take a long time to get over, even after they're gone) which leads to things like PTSD, and what it sounds like he has right now: Stockholm Syndrome.

Take a big deep breath, remind yourself of why you're doing this and what you're up against, then go in and give it your best. It's possible that if you're prepared and focus on the right things, it may be a quick battle with a happy result. But you'll need to realize it may also require using everything in your arsenal, and then some. All the best!

I have found myself getting angry at times, too - why won't my BIL stand up for himself? And then I feel guilty, because he's not the person I should feel anger towards, he's a victim. And then I think, he unleashed this "weasel in the henhouse" on the rest of us. He never stands up for himself or his family when N is wreaking havoc. But as I've said before, and as you said, he was raised to "do the right thing" and apparently he thinks standing by her, regardless of how shocking her behavior is, is the "right thing". He is a perfectionist in many ways, and I think he would feel so ashamed to have a failed marriage that he'd rather pretend everything is okay. I think Stockholm Syndrome is a good way to put it. I've heard it said of him that he's not a "quitter", but sometimes quitting is the best option. Like that proverb that says something like "no matter how far you've gone down the wrong road, turn back". Better 20 years in denial than 21....