Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

IN SEARCH OF PERFECTION
by Edward A. Dreyfus, Ph.D.

The belief that perfection can be achieved affects the lives of countless numbers of people. Many people are obsessed with achieving perfection to the point that it affects their physical and psychological well-being. These individuals are commonly referred to as "perfectionists." They seek the perfectmate, the perfect job, the perfect body, and they are often unhappy in their quest. Even the most mundane task can become an ordeal since the task must beperformed to an exacting standard. These people experience disappointment and dissatisfaction and are often unable to enjoy the simple pleasures of life. They believe that perfection is attainable; they experience falling short of the goal as failure. These individuals spend an inordinate amount of time trying to make certain that they will avoid making mistakes.

Perfection is meant to be an abstract ideal toward which we strive in anattempt to gain proficiency and to excel. It is a concept designed to spur us on to greater heights. The meaning of the word perfection is illustrated by the phrase "striving toward perfection." Few people who adopt seeking perfection as a value (as opposed to achieving perfection) expect to achieveit. Seeking perfection merely connotes that process of moving closer to an abstract ideal.

The concept of perfection in itself has no meaning in a concrete sense. It only takes on meaning when we ask the question "perfect for what?" In other words, it is a relative concept. Perfect weather for sailing is not the same as perfect weather for ice-skating. The perfect fishing rod when deep sea fishing for marlin is different from that used when lake fishing for trout. And the perfect knife for hunting is different than the one used for stemming strawberries.

Perfectionists are driven to have everything they do meet some internal standard of perfection. Often these people find it difficult to take on projects because they will spend so much time and energy carrying out the task that they become over whelmed and often either cannot complete the task or they take so long that it no longer matters.

Perfectionists live in a narrowly defined world in which they feel empowered. In this narrowly defined world, they believe it is more possible to beperfect. The fewer activities they engage in, the greater the possibility of achieving this goal. Waiting for perfectionists to make a never tried before dinner to their perfectionist standards, could leave one hungry for a long time. Even perfectionists become frustrated with themselves, often refusing to cook or even eat because they could not prepare it to perfection. Time is often the enemy of perfectionists since they cannot achieve perfection on a schedule.

Perfectionists cannot tolerate mistakes. Even the slightest error is frustrating and can even generate overwhelming anxiety. It is as though eachact were a life and death struggle. Each mistake could cause imminent catastrophe. Perfectionists even lose sleep worrying about projects in which they think they may have made a mistake. Perfectionism is an attempt to master and control the environment.

Roots of Perfectionism
Perfectionists keep their world at a minimum so that they won't have to become over whelmed with all of the possible imperfections, be open to criticism from others, and can maintain their things in perfectorder. By keeping the world narrow perfectionists are not exposed to the threat of criticism.

Our society reinforces perfection. From childhood we learn that being "good" is very important. We learn that "good" means being quiet, orderly, clean, and disciplined, where being controlled is rewarded. We learn to delay gratification, put our toys away, not to spill our milk, and to scrub ourhands clean. The child with the neatest room, cleanest hands, unsoiledclothes, gets the gold star. From early on we train our children to functionin the world where being compulsive and perfect pays off.

Schools further reinforce these values. We are taught to color within thelines, we are questioned about what happened to the 2% on a 98% correctpaper. We are asked why we received one "B" in an otherwise straight A report card. Schools make it difficult for a child to make a mistake. Conformity is the goal and in many schools, and controlling the children takes a higher prioritythan learning and discovery. Perfect children are quiet children.

When the child lives in a world where there is considerable criticism forerrors, mistakes, and omissions the child feels anxious, fearing loss of approvaland love. In order to ward off this anxiety and the anticipated criticism, the child begins put pressure on him/herself to do better. The child then begins to criticize himself for not performing up to the internalized parental standard.

Perfectionism becomes ingrained in the very fabric of a person's personality. Because it is continuously reinforced in our workplace, and in society in general, it is very difficult to relinquish. The payoffs are considerable. We learn very early in life that mistakes are not acceptable.

So how can we change? It often feels as though the consequences of giving up perfectionism will be worse than dealing with the pain.

First, you must be willing to endure the short-term agony of giving up your cherished beliefs--that in many instances have helped you to survive in a chaotic world.

Second, you have to develop a new belief system, one which is more congruent with contemporary information. Most of the beliefs held by perfectionists are based on data collected during childhood.

Third, you must be willing to risk changing behavior. Though this is easier once you have changed the beliefs, habitual ways of behaving are difficult to change.

Fourth, few people are able to accomplish these feats alone. Support from friends and family, along with working with a psychotherapist is frequently necessary. Remember, these beliefs and behaviors were developed inchildhood. They are very resistant to change.

The following are some ideas for you to consider:
Mistakes are opportunities in disguise. They offer you the opportunity tolook at situation from a different perspective. Many inventions and discoveries have been the result of a mistake. Columbus discovered America while searching for the West Indies; he simply got lost!

Embrace your mistakes and learn to forgive yourself. Most of us grow morefrom support and affection than from criticism. Criticism causes us to shrinkfrom the world. Mistakes indicate that you have made an attempt--that you have dared to try!

People who have been voted into the Hall of Fame, earned an Oscar or received a Pulitzer prize have had many a song, book, movie or play bomb or even trashed before (and after) they had a hit. Babe Ruth held the record for the most home runs and the most strikeouts!

Intentionally perform a task to less than perfect standards; see whathappens. Notice how you feel.

Keep your mind on the purpose of your tasks. Be certain the energy you put into the project is related to the purpose of the task. Remember: perfection is relative.

Be human: make a mistake!

5/29/98

Dr. Edward A. Dreyfus is a Clinical Psychologist, Marriage, Family, Child Therapist, and Sex Therapist. Dr. Dreyfus has been providing psychological services in the Los Angeles-Santa Monica area for over 30 years. He offers individual psychotherapy to adolescents and adults, divorce mediation, couples counseling, group therapy, and career and vocational counseling and assessment.His book, Someone Right For You, is available in the Amazing Bookstore Catalog.

Dr. Dreyfus can be reached at: (310) 208-5700.



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http://www.selfhelpmagazine.com/article ... rfect.html

OK guys, its official - freedom to be just who we are - gloriously, marvellously, fabulously - imperfect - and human.

I'll have a look a this tomorrow. Looking forward to it. This is information I need badly.

In other literature I've read, such as the Artists way, perfectionism is more frequently linked to underachievment and a tendancy to avoid situations where imperfection and criticism may occur. The article is good, but it doesn't really address this manifestation of perfectionism.

I really enjoyed the article. I was difficult for me to read because obviously I dysfunctional in that way..

Perfectionists live in a narrowly defined world in which they feel empowered. In this narrowly defined world, they believe it is more possible to beperfect. The fewer activities they engage in, the greater the possibility of achieving this goal.

This is me.

Perfectionists keep their world at a minimum so that they won't have to become over whelmed with all of the possible imperfections, be open to criticism from others, and can maintain their things in perfectorder. By keeping the world narrow perfectionists are not exposed to the threat of criticism.

I'm terrified of rejection, of things going wrong.

I'm really grateful for this article, I'm going to have to work hard on this. I hate being a perfectionist. It sucks.

Hi Serenity, Will look out for the Artists Way, and any info I can find from that perspective. :)



Hi Thay, Have you read Wayne Kritzberg's "Adult Children of Alcoholic's Syndrome?

It mentions perfectionism in there as one of the symptoms of having been raised in a alcoholic family. And that that is why some people who were have a compulsion to drive themselves in this particular way(also that others drive themselves with other compulsions) - and that these things start in childhood because the alcoholic(nor the N) family is not a safe, or happy place for a child.

It's a really small, but very powerful book.

Don't be too hard on yourself - if you have the information you can change any aspect of behaviour you dont care for or no longer need, once you recognise where it comes from.

Its my belief that these things are coping stategies adopted as children that continue into adulthood. Once the person has the information and understands and accepts that they are worthy person, then the childhood coping strategies arent needed anymore, and then the person can begin the process of recovery and actually finding out who they really are - its an amazing journey - painful at times, and yet immensely joyful at others.

If a person lived with critisism and was unvalidated all through their childhood, its not surprising as a grown up that they might keep their horizons small in order not to get hurt.


Keep going Thay, its a painful journey at times, but its also liberating because it will lead you back to yourself. You will be dancing to your own tune, not someone elses - so at the moment you are finding out what tune suits you.

It will lead you back to who you are - and you know, that person is pretty darn worthwhile.

Hi Thay, Have you read Wayne Kritzberg's "Adult Children of Alcoholic's Syndrome?

No I've read very little on child abuse but I'll add this to my list.

Hi Thay, Its about how early family experiences impact on adult children of alcoholics.

I'm just not that motivated to read right now. I know all the information I think I need it is more practical things I think I need to work on. But I'll keep it in mind. But just thinking about being a perfectionist I'm beginning to see the insanity in it, I think it is just about having some sort of control over something, having some order because it was all so chaotic and painful and confusing.

I just feel torn a lot because I have some of the emotional needs and insecurities of a child but I have the insight and knowledge of an adult. I'm very capable in some ways but I have these childlike habits, like looking for attention, seeking external reinforcement. It is very frustrating for me. But I'm going to try and parent myself, I've done this before basically be father to my son.

But I want to look into perfectionism more so I have made a note of the book. When I get a chance to visit the library I will see if I can get these books out.

Keep going Thay, its a painful journey at times, but its also liberating because it will lead you back to yourself. You will be dancing to your own tune, not someone elses - so at the moment you are finding out what tune suits you.

Yeah I'm not sure about who I am what my role is exactly right now. But I'm making some decisions about certain aspects of my life that I think will help me with my clarity. I kind of know what I want I just am struggling with how to go about it. But when I get frustrated I tend to cling to old habits, return to old ways of coping.

But if you can see where I'm going wrong you should tell me. If you think there is something I should do you should tell me, I'd appreciate that. I'm thinking of quitting alcohol completely, I think this would be a positive move and very difficult for me to do. Maybe I should read more about child abuse, I'm not sure. I've organised some counseling I think it will be OK but I won't learn a whole lot from the counselor it is more just someone to talk to.

I really want to get off the treadmill here. I feel it is important that I get some of these issues under control pretty soon. I'm looking for as much advice as I can get.

Hi Thay, If you dont feel like reading then dont push yourself, you will get round to it.

Re: perfection. The thinking about it, and realising where it comes from (the need for control and order when you were younger) is half the battle.

Have you ever tried anything like CBT approach? Exposing yourself to not doing something perfectly little by little and seeing how it goes?

No, I guess you wont learn much more information from a counsellor than you already know, but you might learn more about the most important person YOU.

What a good counsellor will be able to do for you is talk to you about all the things you want to get over, then help you get them into some kind of order - so that you will be able to process them and move forward.

Its a really good idea.

Also, its great that you are aiming at putting the information you learned into practise - thats going to help.

Will keep an eye out for more perfection stuff and post it as I find it.

Thank you Echo for finding this, it helps me too........

Thay

But when I get frustrated I tend to cling to old habits, return to old ways of coping.

Thats exactly what happens to me too, and have been aware of this for almost a year now, and working hard to change this thing in me, that does this, what shocked me more than anything was realising, that I self abuse myself, when I get like this, plus, I go into procrasination, to the point, that everything in my life goes downhill.........

Good news is, my hard work is paying off, slowly but surely, just need to be patient with myself, and it was awareness, that helped more than anything, now its about making new habits, to let go of the old habits.

Not having to be perfect, was such a relief when I learnt that, took a huge weight off my shoulders, infact, I now feel I fit into society, whereas always felt an outsider and different before.

Hang in there Thay, it is tough, and when you are ready, you will have no problems reading it, but only when you are ready........go easy on yourself.

xxxx

Echo:

Have you ever tried anything like CBT approach? Exposing yourself to not doing something perfectly little by little and seeing how it goes?

I'm going to be looking at ways to do this. I'm already thinking about possible tasks I can do imperfectly. One of the difficult things is that it is hard for me to cope if I'm not in that organised frame of mind, I'm so used to coping in this way. Just being really disciplined and sticking to routines etc. But what I really like in the article which has well and truly registered is the idea of concentrating on the purpose of what you are doing as opposed to the details.

No, I guess you wont learn much more information from a counsellor than you already know, but you might learn more about the most important person YOU

Yeah this is what I figure. It is good for me to be in a position which is uncomfortable for me. I also like the fact that she said to me: "I'm going to push you and make you uncomfortable at times" great!, I like being challenged, I want to be challenged. I want to confront what is difficult to confront. So I like her approach in terms of that, I think that sort of approach is the right one for me.

Cassi:

Thay

"But when I get frustrated I tend to cling to old habits, return to old ways of coping."

Thats exactly what happens to me too, and have been aware of this for almost a year now, and working hard to change this thing in me, that does this, what shocked me more than anything was realising, that I self abuse myself, when I get like this, plus, I go into procrasination, to the point, that everything in my life goes downhill........

It is terribly difficult but it pays dividends. But it is just maintaining that progress. I find I'll get on the right track and then slip off without even realising it. But for me it is self-abuse also. But one thing I'm doing which I think will really help with this in particular is to quit alcohol, I think alcohol really doesn't help me at all. I thing it plays a big role in reinforcing my dysfunctional coping strategies. I'm really stoked about getting alcohol out of my life, I'm making a commitment to this.

There's a song I really like (about depression) and one of the lyrics is "share a cigarette with negativity." This is what I do when I smoke. Smoking itself doesn't bother me but it is the association with my mood. Whenever I smoke I am "sharing a cigarette with negativity." So this is why I'm quitting smoking. If I was "sharing a cigarette with positivity" the need to not smoke wouldn't be so strong.

But I think part of this is just being alert, being alert of those triggers. I have a hell of a lot which makes it quite a task.

Not having to be perfect, was such a relief when I learnt that, took a huge weight off my shoulders, infact, I now feel I fit into society, whereas always felt an outsider and different before

This is a problem of mine I still feel the need to be perfect. I'm trying hard to let go of this compulsion. I feel very much like an outsider in certain settings, like at uni. I'm trying to integrate myself into society in small ways but I have difficulty with it. It is something I don't think people understand with me, I have some difficulty with that, building relationships and trust and that sort of thing but I'm glad I'm beginning to be able to identify and label some of these dysfunctional behaviours of mine.

Hang in there Thay, it is tough, and when you are ready, you will have no problems reading it, but only when you are ready........go easy on yourself.

I'll get around to it hopefully the library has some of these books. I'm hoping that no alcohol will help with my energy leves, concentration levels, and general enthusiasm. I think it will. But progress is most important to me, I get frustrated because I want to be doing more I feel I have more to contribute and people are beginning to expect more of me -- and I'm having some difficulty with that. But whenever I look back I think "now I'm here" and "I was back there" so it is OK and what can I do now? I'm getting much better at that, getting straight back on task.

It is work though!! This is work!

hi again Thay

I hear you :D , and agree about giving up the alcohol, reading your post has reminded me of some of the things that I did to change, and like you, I had so many changes I needed to make, and probably still do, as am learning things all the time about myself.

Gave up Alcohol, and only drink occasionally, this helped with my anxiety, mood, and I sleep much better.

Cut down on caffeine alot, this also helped with my anxiety levels.

Practise relaxation everyday, as have a very active mind, this has helped alot.

Have learnt, that life is forever changing, never stays the same, and is full of ups and downs, and bad things do happen, and its the way that I deal with it, that is the most important thing.

What people think of me is their business.

If people are in a bad mood, I do not immediately wonder, what have I done wrong to make them feel like this, I now just see them as having a bad mood, which has nothing to do with me.........this was a biggy for me, took alot of practice, and was really unsettling at times, now it comes almost natural to me.

Have learnt that what I get out of life, is what I believe I deserve, this was also a biggy, and it was a saying that I wrote down, and read daily.

Also learnt, that I am not responsible for how people act around me, but I am responsible for my own actions.

I have learnt to take care of my health, I now eat good healthy food, and respect any illnesses that I have.

I recognise that not being perfect makes me completely normal, and its ok, and that nothing in life is perfect.

If life starts to get on top of me, I practise my three basic needs, I say to myself, what is it I am not giving myself, the 3 basic needs are Love, Sleep, and Food/Water.........Love includes self love, friendship, and I give myself a dose of all three, for me it works.

Boundaries - Now this took some work, cos it didnt come naturally, and felt really uncomfortable for me, and it some cases, people got worse around me before things improved, also I didnt even understand what they were, lost 2 so called longterm friendships very quickly all because of the word NO, and have to say, they were never my friends, just didnt realise it at the time.

I learnt that everything in life is simple, we are born, we live, we die, theres nothing complicated about it at all imho.........

I have learnt that everything in life is about balance, a little of lots of things and not too much of anything, if something is out of balance in my life, I ask myself what is it that I am doing too much of?

Another biggy........my thought patterns, I am in control of my thoughts, eg....if I was at a buffet table of thoughts, and I had to choose ten thoughts, the answer is simple I am not going to pick up ten bad ones, am going to immediately go for the good thoughts, so keep this in mind when I start thinking of bad things, and train my mind to think of good things............this had one of the biggest impacts on my recovery.

And with regards to making changes..........I keep this in mind, We can eat a whole elephant, but, only in bitesize chunks. I start off with making small comfortable changes, gradual changes, with my goal being the main big change.

Gosh! I could go on and on, and will stop now, hope something I have said helps, and your posts and this thread is helping me too, its important to have reminders, so thank you for being so open, and good luck to you, your doing great.

(((hugs)))x

I reckon your post would be perfect as a Sticky, Cassie. I am in awe of what you've learned. I could read it over and over my whole life, and still learn something new each time I read it.

I agree with you Serenity. That was a wonderful post Cassie, absolutely inspirational - and this whole topic has turned into a real learning curve.

I applaud you Thay, all of those changes are going to amount to something absolutely massive when they come together - and they will come together.

And it is hard work, ACONs and ACOAs have to unravel a lifetime of mixed messages, hurt, and confusion and unlearn all kinds of incorrect messages.

Guys you have written some wonderfully wise words in this thread. :)

Hi Echo, Thay, Serenity

Thankyou Echo.

Serenity, thank you.........have been thinking about this thread alot today, and your words too, felt strange reading that you are in awe, and then realised, what I have written in one post, which is so simple and normal to me now, I learnt, from self help books, at least 3 therapists, probably more than a 100 members from this type of group, probably over a thousand articles, and a good few years, it took a huge amount of work, and tears too.

A few of the things I will never forget about all this, was when I was going through the changes early on, I really missed my old self, the me I knew, the person I was, and I missed that person badly.........took a long time to feel comfortable with the new me, and now, I look at life with new eyes and in a much different way and no longer miss the old me.

Sometimes I was so overloaded with information, and it got so hard that I wish I could give up trying, but, that wasnt an option, I had no choice.

One of the most toughest obstacles that was in my way, was my tolerance levels..........I didnt know any different, being abused emotionally, was normal to me, someone could come up to me in the street and scream and shout at me, and I could just walk away its what people do right? that was my mindset...........Now, if someone screams or shouts at me, I can feel that its wrong, feels awful, and its not on, how dare anyone feel they have that right to speak to me like that, I dont like it and cannot tolerate it anymore, sometimes I feel I am a much weaker person cos my tolerance levels have dropped and have to keep reminding myself, nope its not weakness, its healthy to not be able to cope with bad behaviour from other people.

Thanks for listening.........xxx

Cassi:
They were really great those points. I feel like I've had to work so hard to get to this point. I've made so many changes already, I've tried so many things. It is has been life by trial and error for me but I feel like I'm getting to a point where I'm trying desperately to put it all together at once. But man it has been so hard, such a massive effort. I really feel like anything I do or achieve just has no meaning to me because of the difficulty and work I've put into just surviving. It has been a fight for your life type of experience, from day one, just an absolute grind! Occasionally someone will say something to me like "just be happy" -- I have to bite my tongue in that situation. "If ONLY you knew dear friend, now here is 50c go buy yourself a lollypop while I cool off." That is how I feel. It is very difficult to contain the frustration, I sometimes get a bit short with people who don't have that understanding of pain.

Cut down on caffeine alot, this also helped with my anxiety levels.

O God I don't know if I could do alcohol AND caffeine... whatever it takes I suppose.

Practise relaxation everyday, as have a very active mind, this has helped alot.

I've done this for a long while, just trying to bring back the moment. I'm so practiced in it that it is essentially automated. I've learned to feel my body I find this helps a lot, trying to feel as much as I can without thinking. And concentrating on breathing too. Even if I was out with my friends having a drink I'd still be doing it -- while everyone is having a good time unwinding I'd be meditating for God's sake, fine-tuning my mind (while getting drunk lol). There is no respite.

If people are in a bad mood, I do not immediately wonder, what have I done wrong to make them feel like this, I now just see them as having a bad mood, which has nothing to do with me.........this was a biggy for me, took alot of practice, and was really unsettling at times, now it comes almost natural to me.

I'm always stressing about it the other way around. I'm in a bad mood or my mind is occupied or I just don't feel like talking and they're going to think I don't like them.

Have learnt that what I get out of life, is what I believe I deserve, this was also a biggy, and it was a saying that I wrote down, and read daily.

That is a good one I think. Because you are having to think positively, and having to love yourself when saying that. I'm tempted to stick something like that on my wall, a few years ago I stuck a smiley face on my wall. Just so simple but you get out of bed and that is the first thing you see. I just found having that set the tone for the day. It was a good reminder for me.

I recognise that not being perfect makes me completely normal, and its ok, and that nothing in life is perfect.

This is one I'm working on. I don't have to be perfect, I'm allowed to be flawed. This is a major issue for me. I think a lot of my anxiety comes from this compulsion or irrational need to be perfect.

Boundaries - Now this took some work, cos it didnt come naturally, and felt really uncomfortable for me, and it some cases, people got worse around me before things improved, also I didnt even understand what they were, lost 2 so called longterm friendships very quickly all because of the word NO, and have to say, they were never my friends, just didnt realise it at the time.

Yeah I have difficulty telling people off but I'll do it from time to time. But you'll have to really be giving me the shits, I've learned to be so tolerant because what is totally unacceptable to most people is what is normal to me. I'm so used to the criticism and just having abuse hurled my way I'm just so low-key about it. I'm so used to drama that it doesn't really affect me, just another day in the life y'know.

But incidentally I have ended a number of friendships, but only because I've outgrown my previous life and I think my old friends understand this and are happy for me which is nice. But because I was so used to subordination I tended to have friends who take the lead and I'd just go with the flow. But this year I consciously decided who I do and don't want to spend time on and I picked out a handful of people, some I didn't know very well or hadn't talked to for quite some time and said "these are the guys, these are the people who are worth my time, these are the people I want in my life." And I now have a group based around me which is so much better because I don't have to compromise myself. And I've found these people have responded and are beginning to change themselves (I suppose I see something of myself in these people) and it is a pleasure to have the company of these people (most of the time).

I learnt that everything in life is simple, we are born, we live, we die, theres nothing complicated about it at all imho.........

I really like this. I want more simplicity, more humility. I want to get back to basics again. Back to the fundamentals, basic values, building community these kind of ideas.

I have learnt that everything in life is about balance, a little of lots of things and not too much of anything, if something is out of balance in my life, I ask myself what is it that I am doing too much of?

I like this one too. Something I should work on, more of less.

And with regards to making changes..........I keep this in mind, We can eat a whole elephant, but, only in bitesize chunks. I start off with making small comfortable changes, gradual changes, with my goal being the main big change.

There is a song "Little Acorns." I don't like the song especially but I do like the message.

Take all your problems
And rip 'em apart

Carry them off
In a shopping cart

And another thing
You should've known from the start
The problems in hand
Are lighter than at heart

Be like the squirrel, girl

Be like a squirrel! :D There is a lot of truth to that though, the problems in hand are lighter than at heart. If we break it up and look at things in isolation, and look at our problems practically we can bring far more simplicity into our lives. It all becomes far more manageable. One thing at a time. Be like the squirrel, life ain't so hard. (I mean it is, but you know what I mean.)

But if you look at a staircase, to draw another analogy, the staircase in its entirety can be overwhelming if it is a big staircase and you're tired but once step at a time is not so bad even if we don't make it all the way up to the top today or even this week. As long as we continue to ascend we'll get there. And how's the view from the top? Martin Luther King seemed pretty stoked about it.

Martin Luther King:

Like anybody, I would like to live a long life. Longevity has its place. But I’m not concerned about that now. I just want to do God’s will. And He’s allowed me to go up to the mountain. And I’ve looked over. And I’ve seen the promised land. I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight that we, as a people, will get to the promised land! And so I’m happy tonight. I’m not worried about anything. I’m not fearing any man! Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord!

He was dead within 24 hours. I'm not a Christian, I don't preach any creed but I'm a fan of Martin Luther King and I believe there is purpose in life and the work we do is not in vain.

It is a tribute to you Cassi.

Echo:

I applaud you Thay, all of those changes are going to amount to something absolutely massive when they come together - and they will come together

Here's hoping. It is nice to hear.

Hi Thay

After reading everything you have said here, some things have sprung to mind, even though I know I do not have all the answers, and each of us has our own way of dealing with things and working things out would like to share my thoughts with you.

you said

It is has been life by trial and error for me but I feel like I'm getting to a point where I'm trying desperately to put it all together at once. But man it has been so hard, such a massive effort.

Hey, why do you need to put it all together at once, and now, how about putting it together bit by bit, at YOUR pace, what feels good for you.

Occasionally someone will say something to me like "just be happy" -- I have to bite my tongue in that situation.

Unfortunately, there are alot of people out there that will not understand. acceptance of this, and awareness of this, can help alot with how it makes you feel, I struggled with this too, now, I just laugh inside lol and my answers are normally, good idea, or ok (and I think oh whatever heehee).

O God I don't know if I could do alcohol AND caffeine... whatever it takes I suppose.

Hey remember the elephant and bite size chunks, you dont have to do it all together, start with the alcohol, when you no longer miss it, then go onto the caffeine reduction.........do it slowly.....give yourself all the time YOU need, its ok to take your time, so it takes months, so what!

I'm always stressing about it the other way around. I'm in a bad mood or my mind is occupied or I just don't feel like talking and they're going to think I don't like them.

Let them worry about that, if they are good friends, or worthy of you, if they have any problems with you, then hopefully, they will tell you, and/or tell them, say I feel in a rotten mood today, so if I am not acting myself that is why.............It is ok to have bad moods, infact its healthy and normal, whats not normal is to be 100% happy all the time, that can make us manic, oh nooo, dont like manic LOL, give yourself permission, to have a really bad mood if you want one.

Infact this has reminded me, I said to Lukky the other day, am in a tetchy mood, so am gonna apologise now lol, if I come across horrible, we laughed.

Yeah I have difficulty telling people off but I'll do it from time to time. But you'll have to really be giving me the shits, I've learned to be so tolerant because what is totally unacceptable to most people is what is normal to me. I'm so used to the criticism and just having abuse hurled my way I'm just so low-key about it. I'm so used to drama that it doesn't really affect me, just another day in the life y'know

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Oh thay what you said makes so much sense to me, I am going to cut and paste my comments about this from above......

One of the most toughest obstacles that was in my way, was my tolerance levels..........I didnt know any different, being abused emotionally, was normal to me, someone could come up to me in the street and scream and shout at me, and I could just walk away its what people do right? that was my mindset...........Now, if someone screams or shouts at me, I can feel that its wrong, feels awful, and its not on, how dare anyone feel they have that right to speak to me like that, I dont like it and cannot tolerate it anymore, sometimes I feel I am a much weaker person cos my tolerance levels have dropped and have to keep reminding myself, nope its not weakness, its healthy to not be able to cope with bad behaviour from other people.

Thay I had to learn this, before I felt it........I had to learn that certain behaviour was wrong, then, I had to get in touch with my feelings, that also told me it was wrong, and feel those feelings.

But incidentally I have ended a number of friendships, but only because I've outgrown my previous life and I think my old friends understand this and are happy for me which is nice. But because I was so used to subordination I tended to have friends who take the lead and I'd just go with the flow. But this year I consciously decided who I do and don't want to spend time on and I picked out a handful of people,

You are already making those changes, all of a sudden it will all come together when you least expect it, try not to force it, go with the flow.

Be like a squirrel! There is a lot of truth to that though, the problems in hand are lighter than at heart. If we break it up and look at things in isolation, and look at our problems practically we can bring far more simplicity into our lives.

I love that, keep it simple, go back to the basics, I wrote an article called life is simple, and I chucked it away, infact, you have inspired me to write it again, I was too embarrassed back then to share it........think simple.

aahhh Martin Luther King, great man, one of my mentors is Nelson Mandela, look how long it took him to make those changes, and look at how he has literally changed the world......

Its hard, its tough, and its possible it can be done, its a journey make it a life journey, and take good care of you whilst you are on your journey.

Cassi:
Martin Luther King. When I read his speech recently I was pretty inspired. He spoke passionately about perseverance, chipping away to promote change. He's right in that change comes when people work towards something and stay focused, stay on task, despite setbacks and difficulty. This was the point of the allusion. But I think with all things, half the battle is having the vision, half the battle is holding the vision.

But I can empathise with carrying that kind of burden, carrying a heavy workload. And I'm certain putting in that kind of effort does pay dividends, I know it infact, and I respect people who have had to make that kind of commitment. A blood, sweat and tears type of commitment to survival. I think it is a heroic act, even though people may not see it or you may not be acknowledged for it.

But I'm pretty stoked atm to be getting out of this hellhole! :D

Hellhole I've been in I should say, not the forum... that would be blasphemy I tell you blasphemy!!!

Hey, why do you need to put it all together at once, and now, how about putting it together bit by bit, at YOUR pace, what feels good for you.

Maybe you are right. But I just feel like if I can get all the elements happening at once (eg nc, abstinence, work/play balance etc) then this might go a long way to delivering me my peace of mind. I can usually get one or two but not all of them. But I'm pretty damn close to having my peace of mind anyway, I say this with hesitation but I feel pretty good for once touch wood touch wood.

Hey remember the elephant and bite size chunks, you dont have to do it all together, start with the alcohol, when you no longer miss it, then go onto the caffeine reduction.........do it slowly.....give yourself all the time YOU need, its ok to take your time, so it takes months, so what!

I have a big appetite I could probably eat an elephant in one sitting. But it'd need tomato sauce. But yes you are right I could ease off the caffeine over time, or I could just continue to drink coffee. But I mean where does one stop? What next? sugar?!?!? I mean c'mon, I'm not living off mung beans and lettuce, hell no balls to that. :D

Let them worry about that, if they are good friends, or worthy of you, if they have any problems with you, then hopefully, they will tell you, and/or tell them, say I feel in a rotten mood today, so if I am not acting myself that is why.............It is ok to have bad moods, infact its healthy and normal, whats not normal is to be 100% happy all the time, that can make us manic, oh nooo, dont like manic LOL, give yourself permission, to have a really bad mood if you want one.

Indeed. I hereby declare myself in a s***ty mood! From this day forth I am free to be s***ty should I feel the need to be so!! Indeed Cassi so true these words of yours. To tetchiness I say YES!!!!! :D

Thay I had to learn this, before I felt it........I had to learn that certain behaviour was wrong, then, I had to get in touch with my feelings, that also told me it was wrong, and feel those feelings.

Actually I worry about my being too tolerant. I really want to watch that. One problem I've had in the past is that I'll tolerate a lot and then go beserk lol. I'll crack the s***ts completely, throw the toys out of the cot. It's an anger management issue (good film actually Anger Management).

You are already making those changes, all of a sudden it will all come together when you least expect it, try not to force it, go with the flow.

Indeed. Just as water from thine faucet, it must flow.

I love that, keep it simple, go back to the basics, I wrote an article called life is simple, and I chucked it away, infact, you have inspired me to write it again, I was too embarrassed back then to share it........think simple.

Yes you should, your insight is so helpful and good. You're in the perfect position to write about something like that.

aahhh Martin Luther King, great man, one of my mentors is Nelson Mandela, look how long it took him to make those changes, and look at how he has literally changed the world......

Amen.

Its hard, its tough, and its possible it can be done, its a journey make it a life journey, and take good care of you whilst you are on your journey.

Amen to this.

Thanks Cassi I really do find your insights very useful. Very stoked about this and grateful. :D

I was wondering about this today: How do you guys define perfection? Is it something generic, or do we have individual concepts of perfection that relate to protecting our family's (and N-parent's) image?

I think that the way my family defines perfection is rather generic in some ways, but when I really think about it, its also quite specific; its just that I've never really thought about it before.

For example, my mother is a somatic N, so morality, good character, and honesty are not values that are important to my family. Being a decent human being is not a measure of perfection. Some of my siblings are downright criminal and child abusers in their own right. But it is never criticised.

Image is everything. Looks, good health, wealth, dressing the right way, `knowing important people' keeping a perfect house, and generic accomplishments that solicit the maximum amount of praise from `society' are all part of that idea of `perfection'.

And there are specific behaviors that `measure up', and others that are punished. I know that I don't have to explain those here, as we all know what they are; the stuff we did to be perfect NS, according our roles within the family, like care-taking, always being positive, submission etc etc.

I think I do have my own ideas of perfection. They intellectually are based on my life as an adult. But I'm still struggling to feel the same joy (?) in those accomplishments that I felt when I lived up to what my family demanded of me. Wheres the joy? I don't understand myself sometimes.

Perfection: "the state of being without a flaw or defect"

But I think different people probably have different values and ideas about what constitutes being perfect. Perfectly cool, perfectly intelligent, perfectly beautiful, or whatever. Depends what tickles your fancy at the juice bar.

Image is everything. Looks, good health, wealth, dressing the right way, `knowing important people' keeping a perfect house, and generic accomplishments that solicit the maximum amount of praise from `society' are all part of that idea of `perfection'.

That was my house too growing up too. It was a "drinks on coasters" environment and drag mud through the house at your peril! I loved it, it was marvellous lol. A perfect nightmare!

I think I do have my own ideas of perfection. They intellectually are based on my life as an adult. But I'm still struggling to feel the same joy (?) in those accomplishments that I felt when I lived up to what my family demanded of me. Wheres the joy? I don't understand myself sometimes.

I think the problem with perfectionism is that it is not real or attainable. Like it said in the article it is an abstract ideal to promote quality in what you do but craving perfection is a Godless endeavour because it is always out of reach. You'll never get it. It is just going to frustrate you. But I've had a lot of problems with this, trying to attain the unattainable so I'm really stoked I can now see the insanity in what I've been doing. I think you lose the moment when you are craving perfection because your mind is in the future, where you are doing things better.

It is INSANE! OMG I'm nutjob lol I'm bonkers somebody snap me out of it snap me out of it plz :D

Thay, I hear what you're saying but you come across as totally sane to me, and I love the way you express yourself. You're just so real and honest, and creative with words, lol. You might pressure yourself a lot, but you're compassionate and undersatnding when it comes to other people.

I think the problem with perfectionism is that it is not real or attainable. Like it said in the article it is an abstract ideal to promote quality in what you do but craving perfection is a Godless endeavour because it is always out of reach. You'll never get it. It is just going to frustrate you. But I've had a lot of problems with this, trying to attain the unattainable so I'm really stoked I can now see the insanity in what I've been doing. I think you lose the moment when you are craving perfection because your mind is in the future, where you are doing things better.

With me, I don't seem to be dealing so much with trying to being perfect these days. I used to, but gave up when it became impossible to hold it altogether.

Its more the flip side that I deal with now - like dealing with the shame for following my own path, imperfectly. I resent that the `trained' feelings about it kick in. Its mostly shame, i think, but a lot of anxiety too. Its as if I'm expecting a giant hand to come out of the air and wollop me across the head..or something like that.

Thanks Serenity, yes I am on the path to sanity thank goodness. But insanity is very recent history and it still feels very familiar to me.

With me, I don't seem to be dealing so much with trying to being perfect these days. I used to, but gave up when it became impossible to hold it altogether.

I'm beginning to let go of that compulsion but it isn't easy for me. I have to be very conscious, very aware of what I'm doing. But I'm slowly taking some of that pressure off myself but it is difficult because I'm so familiar and accustomed to being that way. It is my coping strategy, I've used it my whole life it is not easy to just shed it.

Its as if I'm expecting a giant hand to come out of the air and wollop me across the head..or something like that.

Walking on eggshells... this is how I felt and still do a lot. I'm trying to change my mind about that, so when I enter a situation I'm entering it openly, positively and with a sense of wellbeing and safety. So I'm going to trust people and circumstances to be good, that is my new assumption. Innocent unless proven guilty, not guilty unless proven innocent. It is just a slightly different way of looking at the world for me, a better way I think.

Thats great Thay, you sound like you're making a lot of headway; I don't know how you can be so strong but i admire you for it.

I wasn't able to relax myself at all when I was single; I really needed to be actually loved by someone for many years before I could be a real person. I needed to know, viscerally, that I didn't need to be a superhuman just to be loved.

It took me ages to just do the simple stuff that most people do, like walking around in front of my partner without makeup and my hair untidy;, oh, and letting the place the get messy when I was too busy to tidy it up. Mostly, I let some things go because you can't take on the responsibilities of a man (earning the income) and also a woman (doing all the housework). But I tried, because I was afraid. I let it go because I couldn't do all the day-to-day work for two adults, and i was getting pissed off too (he was student, so not much money coming in from him in the beginning, and no houswork either).

But yeah, i love my guy because -well there are tons of reasons- but I love him for letting me be imperfect and not giving a shit. Its the kind of medicine I needed- theres nothign like it.