Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Starsilver · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 33 Location: UK

I've spent nearly a year on this board on and off, reading more that I post. I found it via Sam and I found Sam via an abuse site for those sexually abused as children (which my X was). When I first read his site my jaw dropped. He was describing my man and explaining so much.

But as time goes by I had a real problem. I'm thinking that perhaps my X is not an N after all. You see I know I was loved. He may have raged and abused me after we broke up and have some of the traits but I know how he was feeling and he felt love.

I've thought about it hard and re-read his old love letters. I've looked into my heart and asked those who knew us both. I really dont' think it was a lie. That man was head over heels in love. Perhaps he can't be loving long term (I'll never know) and perhaps his loving is mixed with a lack of empathy but it's love non the less. I define love as that pull and emotional attachment to someone who can make you feel happy, high and alive. That intimacy which makes you feel; to quote my X "complete". The obsession and the passion and the not being able to eat or sleep or think about anything else. The urge to write poetry and stories for the bleoved, the total joy in beaing together and the dreadful pain of leaving. The happiness in being able to share everything, even the little things. The feeling of sheer bliss just holding each other. The crazy hour long drives just to be together for half an hour....... He lived all that, as I did.

But you all say they can't love. Some even say that envy and fear is all they really feel and that the rest is fake.

So where does that leave me? I saw him emotional. He talked to me about his feelings, feelings of sadness and yearning and even his childhood up to a point. He knew his emotions were walled up in his defensive fort. We talked about his false self anfd the real him, that he said only I really got to see. He loved that he was opening up at last. He nearly cried once with me, which for him was a real breakthrough.

I see all his defences are N defences; the projection, the lies, the smear, the silent treatment. He certainly is vain and likes to be the centre of attention. He needs to be well thought of. He treats his wife with distain, while playing the great husband.

But perhaps he's just a bloke with slight N traits and in a hard hard place.

He didn't mirror me, he didn't lie to me at the time about things. He was thoughtful and sweet. The sex was good. I didn't feel used and he was senstitive and warm. We hugged afterwards. He moved mountains to be with me and talk to me. He was never unkind, until we broke up. The only red flags were that he had an emotional affair before me and we having an affair at all.

I see so many really dreadful Ns on this site; those who are violent, who break the law and have multiple casual affairs. My X is none of those. He's a decent bloke who expects a lot from life and gives a lot too.. But I do relate to the pain and anger you all feel and the long time it takes to come out of the N fog. I still hurt from his lies about us to his wife and friends. He gaslighted me at the end and deliberatly broke my heart for no reason.

I'm not sure where it leaves me. I have a man who I know truly loved me but who is as cruel as any of your Ns. I don't believe that normal men treat those they love so cruely. He sent me a very abusive and frightening letter four months after we slplit up and tried to blackmail me into answering it. That's not normal behaviour. I see him in your posts and many abused boys grow up to be Ns. How can he be an N but still feel and love?

So what IS he?
_________________
Pull out of the dive, steer away from the enemy and ask the hostie for more coffee.

disengaging · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 1342

Star,

I'm not sure what your ex is, but the N that brought me to this board is my husand's exN, who has been diagnosed with NPD.

My ex however isn't actually an N, he's severely bipolar, to the point of becoming nonfunctional if he doesn't take his medication, which apparently happens frequently, turning his current wife and family's lives into a living hell. Bipolars go from one extreme to the next. When in a "manic phase", of this disorder, bipolars can display the exact same traits as an N! And mine sure did, however, when he went into his "despressive phase" he was capable of true remorse.

I never knew he was bipolar during our marriage, and not for years after our divorce either. It wasn't until he became older, reaching roughly his late thirties, before his disorder became severe enough for his wife to insist on his seeking psychiatric treatment--and that's when he was put on medication, which he keeps refusing to take. NO medication is his drug of choice. He's an addict, but is addicted to the adreneline rush of his "manic phase", medication only brings him down to earth, and he doesn't really like it here.

Oh, and that sheer "bliss"? Obsessive love? Oh yeah, that's him, in that manic phase. And then, extreme sadness, talking about the pain of his childhood and crying of how his father never loved him? Oh, absolutely, in his depressive stage. And those "emotional affairs"? Yes, yes, seems to be a combination of the 2.

Everything you've just described about your ex, could match mine, only don't know how long you were with yours, but I left the day I caught him cheating, only to find out much later that she wasn't the first, he just hid the others very well, but I don't think any of that started until after at least the 6th year we were together---when the "high" of "us", was no longer enough for him...

I also only found out a few months ago that my younger sister is also severely bipolar, is also on heavy-duty antipsychotics to stabilize her--and she's successfully hidden this fact from our entire family all these years! We only found out after her husband called to apologize for her behavior this past Thanksgiving in which she raged at everyone until walking out the door screaming, "I'll see you all in Hell!" I wasn't there because I had enough of her outbursts long ago, but my mom cried afterwards for 3 days.

Any possibility this may apply to your ex?

Hugs!

Each "phase" can last a couple weeks, or a couple months, and inbetween phases, he could be relatively normal, capable of true emotion, including love.

SassyAnnie13131 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 228 Location: Minnesota

You have to defined "love." N's will define it as getting their NS needs met IN THE MOMENT. That means that they can go from ice cold to red hot in hours.

Empathy is required to experience love as you and I know it. N's lack empathy, therefore cannot love like a normal person does.

I know I made the mistake of equating intensity as intimacy. Oops.

N's know what to say, so that it appears as if they are FEELING what they are SAYING. "You mean the world to me" can be fresh from Days of Our Lives. "I need my needs met" can be fresh from an episode of Dr. Phil or Oprah. N's absorb societal cues and use them to their advantage. "Men should open the door for women", for example. They may do that for awhile cuz they heard they were supposed to. However, they have a malignant disorder that overrides all else in their lives. Soon, the stop opening doors because dangit, they deserve to walk into the place FIRST. It's OUR fault.

N's have decades of observing what works and doesn't. This is why it is so intense. They have honed right in on what DOES work. If it were you or I, we might not act a certain way, even if others do, because we do not feel the emotion the behavior is supposed to ellicit. Since N's are NOT in touch with any emotions other than FEAR and RAGE, they use everything in their bag of tricks at once. It's overwhelming. He's too good to be true. He does and says ALL the right things! Of course....

I have had heartfelt discussions with Nxbf. Oh, how I thought he meant what he said. Heartfelt emails made my day. (Emails are the worst because they have time to edit and craft a heavy, laden word salad) However, my error was that he is incurably mentally disordered, therefore he CANNOT mean what he says, unless it has to do with NS. Oh, he REALLY means getting NS alright. His pattern of behavior demonstrated that over and over. He just disguised that in words.

For some reason, we take the N at face value with what they say. Words are just that unless followed by action & follow through. Nxbf could sure talk a good game, but had I demanded that words and actions match, I would not be here today. I would've dumped him the second month!

N's react to slights that are perceived, imagined and/or real. When one's partner is having delusions, paranoia, etc it is impossible to have a healthy r/s with mutual feelings.

Think of the N as an actor. In the moment, while acting out the love sick male ingenue role, they appear to really FEEL. They do and say the right things. That is until they change roles into a person who is sneaky, or a person who is stealthily abusive in order to get the NS-response they feel they are entitled to. Incidentally, I am an actor. In the moment, I "feel" on stage. I get into the role. Once I step off stage, it's gone. Adios. It was pretend. In order to make the acting appear convincing, I do have to ellicit emotion while on stage. I pretend I am angry, for example, and draw from my own life experience and relive it on stage. Does this make sense? In the moment, I am consumed. When the moment has passed, I am back to myself back stage. Same thing with N's, however, they do this with their whole lives in order to get their agendas met. (NS)

Hope this helps,
Annie

SassyAnnie13131 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 228 Location: Minnesota

N's are actors. Their costumes are Word Salads. The script is their malignant need for NS. Does this claify? I know I am exhausted and may not have been clear. LOL Wink

Starsilver · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 33 Location: UK

Thanks for the replies. I know he wasn't acting. I think non N people can spot that a mile off. Sometimes he would try the word salad on me but I'd just laugh with him about it. I knew he was doing it. He wasn't all that perfect. He acted imperfectly from real emotion. He did act on his feelings and put himself out for me as well as just say the words. Ok he didn't leave his wife but that's not necessarily a sign of an N.

I'll think about the bi-polar issue. A mutual friend did wonder if that was his problem. He certainly goes into depressions from time to time. He went from high and energetic to ill all the time in the 9 months I knew him. I put that down to stress.

Perhaps there is an overlap with N traits? Thinking about it...he adores Stephen Fry who is also bi-polar. I'm still confused about the nasty and cold way he is towards me now. I have tried over two years now on three occasions to hold out an olive branch and make friends but each time there is silence and a mixture of hints at being happy to hear from me mixed with cruelty and rejection. It's horribly confusing.
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Pull out of the dive, steer away from the enemy and ask the hostie for more coffee.

snowynight · Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject:

Love is not a feeling (this is called lust and infatuation). Love is an action. It is acting on behalf of the person you love to do the right thing by them at all times even when it means nothing back for you.

What you described by him above are a lot of very sweet words never backed by appropriate actions that made him have to compromise or not get something back in order to do the right thing for you.

This is not love. This is exactly what Annie said -- it is intensity, not love.

ExN had a million sweet words and phrases and promises, and it was a highly intense relationship. But I can't count on one hand the times he followed through by demonstrative actions that he truly did love me, that he was willing to sacrifice for me, and do things that he got nothing out of just to make me happy.

Words are easy. Actions are hard. Their "love" is extremely shallow and can be turned off like a lightswitch if it does not somehow get something back for them or if better NS turns up.

Love is an action, not a feeling. Feelings fade, real love lasts even when the intense feelings fade. It becomes something comfortable and secure and trusting. It means putting the other person's well being first. Did your N do that? If not, he did not love. Sorry.

Maybe he wasn't acting in that in that very moment when he said what he said, and maybe in that very moment he felt it. But, like I said, those feelings in an N can be turned off like a lightswitch -- in a matter of minutes. Real love is not fleeting and passing like this. It is dependable, long lasting, respectful and filled with good actions towards and wanting the best for the other.

Now you tell me did the actions match the words????

Grace677 · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 51

Hi Starsilver,
Just a thought, wether he was an N or not, just how nice and decent and honest and emotionaly real was a bloke who cheated on his wife with you and treated her with distain? Hope I got the picture right.
With love G xxx

Starsilver · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 33 Location: UK

Yes they did match the words. He put himself through a very difficult situation to support me. He risked a great deal to come and see me. He was understanding when I was under stress. He would go out of his way to phone or meet me to reassure and comfort me.

Can I ask you to look at the last post and read what was written? You talk about intesity of feelings, about love or lust as a feeling. So you are saying that Ns CAN feel and feel intensely.

Where I think I take issue with the talk of love on the boards is that as I understand it and as psychologists talk about it, love comes in many forms. There is love of one's parents, love for a child, love of friends..

The two main forms of love in relationships are the Falling in Love stage, which is as I described above, with all it's intensity. This will last for at least a year and change into the more settled companionate love, which is what we feel for those we have been with for years. Often such love is not passionate, more like that between brother and sister.

What we call romantic love - the stuff all the poets write about, the movies are about and the songs are about is that beginning stage when we are infatuated with our new lover, the newness and the excitement. This is what my X and I had and it was as real as anything I've ever known.

Maybe Ns can't move to the other phase and have to run when they feel that high slipping into comfortable intimacy for whatever reason. I do think the high of romantic love is such a rush that it overrides our normal defences and makes us act out of character. If you like to investigate there is literature on brain chemistry of those in love. It makes intriguing reading. Perhaps this most powerful of drives pushes an N into living in his real self for a while. As my X said at the time, it was very frightening to feel that way for him.

We fall in love for complex reasons. It has to be that someone special though, not just anyone will do. We aren't toasters. It's not lust either. That's a different set of behaviours. It seems that typically, lust is not the first thing that happens when you fall in love, that comes later. When it does it's overwhelming and you want to do it all the time, but that's part of the bonding.

So it seems that at least for two of us our Ns CAN love, and intensely. They are just crap at the longer term stuff and at actually being nice.

I've never thought love was inherently nice. If there is no conflict it can be but it is also selfish and mad and jealous. Look what happens when those in love are rejected; they stalk and rage and sometimes even kill their beloved. Even though the best thing for the loved one is to leave, love is utterly miserable at the prospect and fights it tooth and nail.

Even companionate marriages that seem so calm and mature erupt into anger and bitterness if one partner finds a better life to go to for them. No letting go with a smile there..........

Let's not confuse romantic love with Christian cosmic love in our rush to condem Ns to an emotionless robotic existence.

As for turning off those feelings, that's about as easy as going cold turkey on crack cocaine. It's ovbious from his behaviour that he is still obsessed with me, it's just turned to hate. But hate and love are closely intertwined.

Just trying to understand my experience and to be true to my reality.
_________________
Pull out of the dive, steer away from the enemy and ask the hostie for more coffee.

sallyishere · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 833

No they do not love. They use, discard, degrade and humiliate but they never love. They love how they feel and what we can do for them. BUT they do not love us.

Sally
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Sally

Just when I thought my life was over, it started again.

stillsmilen · Joined: 10 Feb 2007 Posts: 355

Love is not talk, anyone can say wonderful things, and drive a distance to see you... that's called 'doing what you have to do to get laid'

True love is sacrifice, and I'm talking 'leave the wife' type of sacrifice.

They are actors, who say what they have to say, and do what they have to do.
To fool the NS, and keep the NS happy and givin' it up!!

Cool

stillsmilen
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I made him very sorry that he chose me as a victim!!!
He may have knocked me down, but I got right back up... And kicked his a**!!
(metaphorically speaking ofcourse, but if he hadn't gotten the PPO, I probably would have done it literally too!!)

little_e · Joined: 23 Feb 2007 Posts: 11 Location: Tennessee

Sure N's love - they love themselves!!!

They are egotistical and self-centered and think the world revolves around them.

Nobody loves and N like the N!

little e
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"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye." - The Little Prince

Peekaboo · Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 26

Listen to what Snowy says. Get yourself a copy of a book written by M. Scott Peck M.D. It is titled The Road Less Traveled. It might explain a lot.

I am halway through the book. Amazing. Really.

Lukky · Site Admin Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 2435

The only person an N loves is himself!!! And Still is right ,,, its about sacrifice....

I cant see anywhere in this thread that any sacrifices were made by him... he did what he had to,,,, to recieve NS and if that means pretending tears, pretending love,, pretending pillow talk and pretending to give a crap.... then they do it..! then they do the D&D when you are know longer a good source.....

If I were you I would move on Star....if he loved you so much and was so good to you then I would ask what you are doing here??
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'The Best reaction is no reaction'

aphrodite* · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 300 Location: usa

[quote="Starsilver"]
. I define love as that pull and emotional attachment to someone who can make you feel happy, high and alive. That intimacy which makes you feel; to quote my X "complete". The obsession and the passion and the not being able to eat or sleep or think about anything else. The urge to write poetry and stories for the bleoved, the total joy in beaing together and the dreadful pain of leaving. The happiness in being able to share everything, even the little things. The feeling of sheer bliss just holding each other. The crazy hour long drives just to be together for half an hour....... He lived all that, as I did.
Hi Starsilver,

I understand what you are getting at. It can be very painful to think that what we experienced with a person was not what we thought it was. And maybe, in the end, it is not always cut and dried, either or, that really transpired.

However, the emotions you describe in the above quote are not actually love in the adult sense of the word. They are the signs of infatuation with which we are all familiar from the early days of a relationship. Believe me, I have been there and done that. As dizzying and compelling as they may seem, they are not truly real-and they do not last either. The reason they do not last is because they are not really based on the reality of the other person in the relationship but instead are heavy laden with the unconscious projections of the persons involved. They truly are figments of our own imagination. When the shine wears off, the relationship may vanish as the real other of the person asserts itself and doesn't jibe with the fantasy. Or the connection is more than fantasy and the two people go onto a real, loving and lasting relationship.

That intensity based on unconscious projections is very heady, indeed. In fact, it is like a drug. A person will do a lot to get a hit of their drug of choice. This accounts for a lot of the intensity behind this stage in relationships.

So, was your N really capable of love? I don't know but I do know one thing. All the time he was seeing you, he was a married man. So, in other words, he was deceiving his wife and lying to her. Such a foundation is very poor for a relationship. It throws into question everything else that is going on. It's like saying a person is really healthy if it wasn't for that cancer going on in their lung.

Starsilver-you sound like an articulate, smart, sensitive, cool lady. You are worth more than a man who has this kind of character. It is hard for me to think highly of him at all. In fact, I think he is a dog. I know it is painful but you deserve much better than the likes of him, IMO.

Lynnezer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 534

Nope, they can not love. My couldn't...he wanted to desperately, but he just couldn't.....he couldn't even love the whacko mother who made him the wonderful human being he is today. He's only nice to her, if that's what you want to call it, because she treats him like he walks on water, even though she knows he's a loser.

Sick, sick, sick.

Cool

Lynnezer
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Ns are equal opportunity offenders. Shampoo, rinse, repeat. Wink