Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Starsilver · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 33 Location: UK

What a lovely way of describing it.

I have to disagree again though Laughing

You see I have a child myself (now 15) and I am a professional child carer. Children form very strong bonds and attachments to their mothers and those they see as their family. A child wouldn't run off with stranger and never look back because they cuddled better or had more sweeties. In fact children make DEEPER bonds with those close to them than adults. Perhaps that explains the fact that Ns can't seem to ever let go of us totally. It does explain why they have the tantrums - I know all about those.

Sorry I'm so stubborn. Just repeating that Ns can't love and it all fake is not going to convince me. I've been around the N sites for two years. I've read it all and heard the standard explanations. It just doesn't work for me.

I have a theory. My X is a classic commitment phobic. Now it seems that there is an overlap with CPs and Ns and mine is a blend.

CPs, it is said, only really open up and love totally when they are in a relationship that has no future; affairs are a classic case of this. WOuldn't that work for the N too? Here we have a R that cannot move on to commitment and which they have the perfect out from anytime it pleases them. It's safe. The adrenaline rush of the secrecy etc intensify the feelings and before they know it they are in deep. They feel totally loved because they are getting love from someone unconditionally by definition. The N and or CP defences come down and it feels scary but good. All the chemicals rushing through the brain make him feel great and happy. They allow themselves to love and be their real selves with the other person in a way that would be too frightening with a wife or husband or a real girlfriend.

In having a doomed affair they know for sure they will be abandoned, they know it will end in tears. That fits their childhood memories of love and so you get very close to original N injury. That's wonderful if they feel loved but if they feel betrayed by any action of the OP they lash out with the full force of their N pain. You see the little boy/girl that was so hurt all those years ago.

Perhaps for my X the turmoil of the two years with me have helped him. He's told someone about his childhood sexual abuse for the first time and risked loving for the first time (he said he was never "in love" with his wife.) I know the N defences are very hard to let go and he'll need therapy but perhaps deep inside he is less alone.

I finally let go of him last autumn. It was a sad time for me. Our anniversary of our first perfect meeting is in September. All my hate fell away and I wrote to him in love and acceptance. I feel happier knowing that, whatever he or Sam or anyone else says, I know it was real and I'll keep the memories safe for him in my heart .
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Pull out of the dive, steer away from the enemy and ask the hostie for more coffee.

miahawk · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 174

if it was as simple as that, Star, therapy would work for them like it does for people suffering from all kinds of other traumas.

problem is, you can't fix something that doesn't exist. I can take my car to a mechanic and say "fix the clutch" and if he's a good mechanic, after looking under the hood he'll say "you don't have a clutch". you can say he loves because he gives the appearance of love, but a good look under the hood might indicate otherwise. he never really loved his wife... wonder how many OW's have heard that line from Ps and Ns?

maybe your guy just isn't an N. at least you've convinced yourself his love was true, so he couldn't be.

giterdone888 · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 145 Location: Maryland

Stars,

There's a host of cluster B disorders. NPD is nasty one with very very few redeeming values. Borderline (BPD) is another. Bi-Polar is another. They share a lot of similar traits, but they are essentially different. Under great stress even "normal" people begin to exhibit traits associated with these disorders. Normal people fear abaondonment under some circumstances. Normal people experience overreacted highs, and overreactive lows. Normal people fail at times to experience empathy where others would say it is appropriate. People with disorders and other mental illness have all that and more. I dated a BPD for a year and found her extremely loving at times. Crazy, mean, cold and impossible others.

I think we know when we've been loved by another.
Git

Dora_F · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 26

I've mention this before on other threads, but mine was diagnosed as having NPD, APD, BDP and or Bipolar Disorder by different doctors so you must be right GIT, they must have a lot of similar characteristics because these were all shrinks with many years of experience.
One night, we were talking and I said to him that I beleived in order to truly love someone, you had to trust them. I said you don't trust anyone, even me so how can you truly love me. It brought tears to his eyes. He said "your right". He was definately depressed at the time, but it was like I was looking inside his soul and it really upset him.

Dora

Lynnezer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 534

snowynight · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:43 am Post subject:

Lynnezer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 534

snowynight · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:06 am Post subject:

Yes, you're right Lynnezer. If you felt honest give and take respectful, mutual love, then he's not an N, nor the lesser version, a CP - they can't love either. I apologize if my post was harsh. Perhaps he truly is not an N or CP and you had a genuine love experience. Only you know this and I should not have judged your experience.

sag07 · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 537 Location: Elgin, IL

Star

I was slow to reply to his post because I wanted to see how it would play out. NPD Can’t love because to a NPD, love is a weakness. This is something that a NPD doesn’t want to feel! And to love anyone it requires some very important attributes from the person that loves. One is compassion for others, NPD don’t have compassion for other. Empathy is yet another attribute that a NPD does not have so again would be unable to love. One must love one self before we can love others, so again this would be a problem for an NPD to love. Also love is sharing, something that a NPD can’t do! Last but not least, sacrifice of ones self is a requirement of love again not an attributes that a NPD has required. So if this person in your life has these attributes then he is not an NPD, but he might have some other type of Personality disorder or none at all! Lucky man! but a little research might help you determine that.... One thing I need to leave with you. If you are wrong, then you will find out someday and I do hope you are not wrong!

sag

Lynnezer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 534

snowynight · Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:37 am Post subject:

I agree Lynn. Star, I think you wrote somewhere that you've been perusing these boards for about two years? Same here. I assumed he loved me too at first, but after about a year or so I got it. If after that amount of time of reading and digesting you still believe you and this man loved, then I don't think there's any way he is an N or CP (they can't love either, they just have better prospects for healing if they go to intense therapy for years, as Steven Carter did). So, yeah, if the shoe doesn't fit...... I am glad that you did not have to live the nightmare of an N. I would never wish it on anyone.

Newlife · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 6

You write about the wonderful love letters. Oh yes, I remember them well!

Mine did that too, but after we were married I found the book he copied them from.....

NO Ns do not know how to love. They are however very romantice, they study people well, and act very well. There should be an Oscar for them... Maybe the Oscar Meyer beef frank.

Newlife
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The Lord is my Strongtower

Hope-Returns · Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 30

I wasn't going to get into this because it's frustrating me a little, but I now feel compelled to add my 2 cents, for what their worth....

Star, you had an affair with this man. You didn't live with him. When you saw him, it was always fun, always a holiday from day-to-day life, always exciting, always passionate. I believe this is the reason for your confusion. It was easy for your ex to be on his best behaviour around you. He didn't have to keep it up full time. Of course you felt loved - we all did. But most of us get to the part where real life takes over and the N's true self comes out, bringing us back to earth with a bump.

In my case, most of our relationship was long-distance. When we were "on", he visited every weekend (2 hours drive each way), he often drove here during the week too, if I needed him for anything. He was always the "hero", always ready to help, always "compassionate", always full of passion and said all the right things at all the right times. I had never felt more loved or cared for...

But then I woke up. And it wasn't pretty. I'd much rather have lived in denial dream-land: believing he really did love me and maybe he was just scared of committment, believing he loved me more than he loved anyone, believing his marriage with his ex-wife had been without love, without passion, believing he'd opened up to me in ways he hadn't opened up to anyone.

I realise now that, yes, he felt what HE describes as love - I'm sure he felt excited, obsessed, overwhelmed etc - but I believe he was simply high on the adrenalin, excited by the fact that someone (me) wanted him so much, obsessed with hanging on to his best current source of NS. He wasn't falling "in love". I was. I felt excited, obsessed and passionate too. But as time wore on I also started to feel a deep love for him - REAL love. I cared about him as a person, I wanted to know everything about him, I overlooked his emerging flaws, I wanted to share my life with him, I wanted the best for him and I didn't ever want to hurt him. I thought he felt the same, but only in hindsight I can see he didn't. It hurts like hell and it takes a lot of courage to see the reality of the situation.

Star, if holding on to this "love" is helping you to heal, then I say "go for it". But I think it might be holding you back. I think it might be holding you in the past, keeping you waiting for him, staying stuck.

Take care,
Hope

sweetcaroline51 · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 540 Location: Canada

I believe that any one of us can say the same-our ex N really loved us!!! The fact is, they are real players and will say and do anything when they are in the getting what they want phase. I could swear to you that my ex loved me alot but when I came out of denial , educated myself about N's and P's, he fit the profile to a T. Actions speak louder than words period. Mine too is severley bipolar but the N traits are loud and clear. I have seen him cry a thousand times and beg me to stay but he is a NP, so I could not stay. Had he been diagnosed bipolar,medically treated for it and stabilized I may have stayed but he was diagnosed, severely medicated and behaved exactly the same way-all the meds did was calm him down somewhat. No, they do not love. Don't kid yourself.
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Caroline

NancyCT · Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1362 Location: Connecticut, USA

Star, I'm very new here. I came because my H was diagnosed as NPD, or at least with strong N traits that have profoundly affected our quality of life. I never even heard of the disorder before. I too still believe that he loved me - we have been married for 24 years, how could he not? I too find it one of the most difficult aspects of this whole thing. I think "what a waste of all those years"! But it wasn't a waste. There was a lot of good, and our problems only surfaced over the last 2 1/2 years. I loved him. I loved him soooo much. That was real. It was good. We also have two wonderful children. I'm not ready to even consider the idea that he never really loved them.

If he didn't love us, I don't blame myself for not seeing it. He always did his duty as a husband and a father (until now). He brought me flowers. He tossed a ball with our little boys. He told me I was beautiful every day.

When I asked him to accept resonsibility for the abuse of the last 2+ years and to begin to make amends, completely incapable of it. His defenses came to his rescue in a nonsecond. It became all my fault. He did nothing wrong. He was absolutely unable to face what he had done. He did, however, dig a drainage trench across the front of my garden, saying it was making it up to me for "letting me down". He built a beautiful staircase down to my garden out of stones. But if I bring up the abuses I've suffered in the past by those same hands, he becomes enraged and it begins again. He built me my own sewing room, complete with a fireplace and a hot tub out the back. But he also spits on me when he's confronted about his behavior.

How would I know if he loved me? I want to believe that in his own warped way, he loved me, or believed he did, as best as he could. I'm just coming to realize that it was not enough. Maybe it was not at all. It was just part of his fantasy world. Loving, devoted husband and father, knight in shining armour, rescuer of damsels in distress, builder of stone steps. He cannot possibly add assaulter of wife to his self-portrait. It is just not possible for him.

Believing that he once loved me isn't helping me move on now. It is keeping me clinging to the idea that he can love me again. He is just "sick" and his therapist will get him to where we both need him to be in order to get all this ugliness behind us and get back to our happy, productive lives. (yes, we were happy once) I have trouble letting go of my visions of our loving, intact family that I so deeply believed we had.

Accepting that he is not capable of loving me now, whatever he felt in the past, is what will help me move on. Memories of being loved by him, real or not, will help keep me from believing I wasted all those years with him, and help me get past the incredible anger of betrayal.