Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Through the years my "resolve" has been, like most of us, up and down,off and on, between tears and pain, come and go--but maybe I have finally acheived the "final resolve"--I consider it like an alcoholic or drug addict does their sobriety---one day at a time. that is all that any of us have anyway, is TODAY.

I feel "different" some how this time, so maybe this is the one that will stick. There are no lilngering doubts and no lingering guilt. I think part of why I feel "better" this time is I finally looked back far enough to realize that my mother's implantation of the "guilt" and "hell fire and brimstone" CHIPS in my subconscious have been discovered and REMOVED.

I don't know, but have studied a great deal lately on spirituality, instincts within us, our inner voices, etc. and I think maybe I have finally been quiet long enough to listen to my inner voice, my own instinct, my own subconscious, whtever word you want to call it, and realized that I had something imbedded in it that was like a virus in a cell and would sabotoge me---I am sure most of us have some subconscious desire or idea back there deep inside that makes it difficult to give up on the "approval" from an N mother, father, sister, brother, lover, husband, child and keep "impossible hope" alive that dooms us to repeat our behaviors o ver and over and over. I think maybe this "microchip" is different in each of us, but I think some how, at least for me, I was doomed to fail until I found it and removed it.

Mom is not an N or P, she is simply a very dysfunctional role player, but her role is more important to her than anything--and it is imbedded deep within her soul. But that "role" she plays goes right into the hands of the N/P in our lives and gives him control over her to use as a puppet for his own uses.

Thank you for the compliment, but my "strength" and "resolve" are no better than anyone else's, I've just had a lot of practice failing, so maybe this time I got it right.
_________________
Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Oxdrover,
I have been reading about complexes, described as 'splinter personalities, attached to a quantum of energy, a fragment of history, and including a micro agenda'. They are a sort of adaptive response to messages we got about ourselves as children. They prevent us from listening to our inner voice, our own instinct, as you've described.I've come to see very recently that a message that I got as a child was that the things that held my interest were of little value. The complex that evolved out of that was that I would only do things that supported my parents values...hence, I spent nearly a decade working as a support person in my father's chosen field. ( blechh...I still have no idea what to do with this, having just discovered it.: (
The way you desribe the 'microchips' we carry sounds very similar to a complex.
I wonder if we can really remove these 'chips' or complexes, or merely recognize them and choose not to allow them govern our behavior?
I'm not sure what you mean by failure. It makes me feel apprehensive for you...sounds like an opportunity for negative self labeling. Maybe the semantics aren't important here, but how about 'learning experience" ( as in my new favorite bumper sticker; "Oh, no!!Not another learning experience!!)
Forgive me, but I still suspect that you may have more strength and resolve than you are willing to give yourself credit for.
paradox

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Paradox, you don't need my "forgiveness" for anything dear. I DO have the strength to do what I know to do. I have ALWAYS had that strength, but I have not always USED it, or sometimes even recognized that I had it.
I have also sometimes given in to the "guilty" microchip--I am not sure if we can actually "remove" them or not, Dr. Eric Berne described them as "tape recordings" that our "critical parent" told us and tht we recorded in our "how to live our life right" files. He suggested that this is not a totally negative thing, because it allows us to do things without having to examine every social thing we do. Like "wash behind your ears" or "don't forget to brush your teeth"--but as we reach adulthood we SHOULD go back and examine some of these "commands" and see if we still agree with them. If we don't, then we need to reexamine what was "programed" in the "chip/tape" and if we can't erase it, we can at least push the STOP button on that particular recording CONSCIOUSLY. I think what I was doing was hitting "pause" and after a little while it would start playing again. Now tht I consciously RECOGNISE what tape was playing, and examine it and say to myself (in my "adult brain") "My mother does not have the power to tell God to send me to hell for not going along with her dysfunctional religious definition of what forgiveness means."

Whether I "remove" that chip or whether I push STOP, as long as I don't let that puppy play into my emotions, and then let my emotions push me into doing something I know is WRONG, then I am OK. It is failing to recognize that the emotions are coming from that "critical parent's recording" of what is "right and what is not' that is "telling me" I have to feel guilty.

Transactonal Analysis as in "Games People Play" by Eric Berne was the first of any kind of psychology I studied when I was a kid. I also read "Body Language" and I don't remember who that was by. But TA is a "simple" way to look at the "games" people play and i don't mean "Checkers or Chess"-- Berne looked at the patterns that people use to interact and wrote in such a way that anyone with an IQ bigger than their shoe size could read it and say "AH HA!" Yep!

His theory is that there are 3 parts of our personalities (basic) the PARENT, THE ADULT, AND THE CHILD. The parent consists of everything we "recorded" from our parent figure(s) about how to l ive our lives. It has a critical half and a nurturing half (the "halves" may be larger or smaller depending on how much criticism we got vs. how much nurturjing, so it can be warped one way or the other) The ADULT is a "computer" that doesn't have any "emotions" it just calculates and THINKS, the CHILD part of us is again divided into the "good child and the bad child" but is the part of us that does "naughty things" or "sweet loving things" and has "fun" or gets sad and "cries"---

The three parts of our psyche "talk" to each other and influence what we do. If you decide you are too tired to take a bath tonight, your "critical parent" may make your "child" feel so guilty, even though you have been up 48 hours straight digging ditches, that you get out of bed and go take a bath before you crash in order to shut up the "guilt" tape.

Anytime we are feeling "sad" we are "in" our CHILD, and that "child" h as been hurt or needs nurturing. If it feels guilty then our critical parent is "whipping" it emotionally.

If you "feel" some "guilt" you can be sure that your "critical parent" part is "whipping your child"

Meerly by asking yourself "Why is my parent whipping my child?" you change into your aDULT (computer) and think UNemotionally about things. This is a little "trick" on how to get out of the sad/bad/guilty etc moods that your internal critical parent puts you into.

Our Ns and Ps tap into this "parent" and place themselves into the "critical parent" role, and they schold, beat, etc. our "child" and for whatever reason, we accept this abuse from them just like we accepted whatever the "gods" (parents) told us when we were little---without any "checking" to see if it is right. If your real parents told you that you were "bad" you had no way to know if they were "right" or not, you just accepted that "I must be a bad girl/boy because the gods say so" We internalize this tripe into what we think of ourselves, and our self esteem etc.

When two people "interact" (have a transaction) they can speak to each other from any one of the 3 personalities each has. For example.

N/P: (said in a sarcastic hateful tone as he comes in the door from work) Where are my cuff links? (his critical parent trying to hook your kid into a fight) He really doesn't want to know where the cuff links are, he wants to fight and is throwing out a "lure" just like a fisherman fishes for bass, so that he can blame it all on you, of course.

You: (Your rebellious child PICKS UP THE LURE) Don't talk to me like that you SOB! find your own damn cuff links, if you weren't such a slob you'd know where they are. Do you think I am your mother?"

THE FIGHT IS ON. YOU FORGET ABOUT THE CUFFLINKS AND FIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD. He ends up huffing out to the bar to get drunk because you are such a bitch, all he did, after all was ask where his cuff links were.

Now SEcond scenario:

N/P--same as before

YOU: (Your internal adult says to you--he's looking for a fight and I refuse to indulge him.) Sweetly say "They're on your dresser dear." Though his "critical parent" threw a lure to your child in an effort to get your emotional child to fight back, your adult over rode the "child's" emotions, and you "pretended at least" that you didn't catch on that he wanted to fight so he could go meet the girlfriend tonight and get drunk.

NO fight. He will have to keep coming up with LURES until you pick one up. If you absolutely refuse to "fight" he loses, so you can expect him to esculate until you "bite the lure."

My NP son knew if he attacked my mother (LURE) that he would hook into my "nurturing parent" to "defend" her from him. Just like lots of your XNPs use your kids to "hook you" into a fight. I bit that one and I lost my cool, and I shouldn't have done so. (My bad)

However, when I finally got my "injured child" to stop crying and got back into my "rational adult" where I could think and not let my emotions, sadness, etc. determine what I did, rather than "thinking things through" as an adult--I started to make progress.

I didn't "win" the entire game, but at least I recognized what I had done "wrong"--where MY behavior was not proper or rational--forgave myself for that--nurtured my Internal "child" from my internal "nurturing parent"--my "child" now feels much better. My adult is in control of the situation. I also realize that my real mother is not capable of "nurturing" me or my internal child. Right now she is punishing me to the best of her ability by withholding her "love" and "attention" and "approval"---however, knowing the things that drive her, sooner or later, she will come back looking for things from me, because the NP and his "gang" will disappoint her.

My "power" comes from the fact that I am looking at things rationally, staying in my "adult" so that my "child" is cared for and not "abused"--even by my own "internal parent"---I can accept that my own internal parent has some "bad tapes" and I do have the power to at least push the "stop" button on them. If I start to hear them (my child will feel guilty) then I have "told" her to watch out for these tapes running again and let my adult know and I will turn themm off. My internal nurturing parent will defend my internal child from the critical parent inside my head.

All sounds crazy I know, but it makes sense if you read it-- in the book at least, maybe not my explination. ha ha

Nurturing parent/ critical parent: tape recordings of real parents (but not analyzed until you make an effort to do so) some are "good" and right and some are "---wrong"--- this is where we get prejudices such as "all people of xxx religion/race are stupid" "all men are pigs" "sex is nasty" "good girls don't enjoy it" Also where we get "atta' boys" and praise. "You're smart" "you''re good"

Adult--no emotions, just computer to make decisions. A good place to make decisions. It is also capable of turning off tapes in Parent, and nurturing your child. Or making decisions that are good for the "child" such as "Sue has been working too hard lately, she needs a break, today would be a good day to go to the lake and play."

Naughty Child/ Good child (has fun, feels all emotions) Not a good place to make decisions from though, because they are always based on emotions. Best if you check with adult to see if the decisions are sound AND nurture the child. Or that you don't slip into your naughty child and have a tantrum.

People who have a warped parent or a big naughty child or both, can be pretty warped and dangerous. How they interact with others can be brutal bullying. Many times their naughty/bad child will beat the crap out of your good child, and if you have a big bad critical parent as well, you get the double whammy from your own internal parent and from the N or P's naughty child bullying you as well.

I have a pretty big critical parent from my mother, as well as the "guilty chip" which was/is quite large, using religion and Hell fire and damnation as an incentive: carrot and stick big time. When I came to the point of parenting my own children, rather than imitate this big critical parent I made a conscious decision to soften this a great deal.

Even though I have given my internal emotions a great deal of thought and study through the years (especially working in psych) never the less I have "missed" that one big bad guilt chip until now. It was there, and I can look back and realize when it played and how my child felt inside. I let my child do whatever it took to get rid of that pain from the tape, which was a mistake. I should have examined it sooner from my adult, but I didn't. But now is the best time to start since it is NOW.

I do have a very very very STRONG and logical and good adult, and I have a very loving child and my nurturing parent is not abscent, though it is much smaller than my critical one. But by recognizing these "thought tools" and looking at my emotions, my feelings, and my actions and for now at least being very careful to guard my child from further abuse and let the child heal and recover for a while without any negative beatings or criticism, then I can make it through this intact.

EVery child wants their mother's and father's love, approval, and intimacy. I didn't get that from my NP bio-father, but I did from my step dad. My child din't get it from my mother either, she built a big critical parent inside my head. But, I can NURTURE myself--and care for my own internal child the way I cared for my own babies when they were little. Protect them from harm from within or without, give them what they need, let them play and have fun, let them enjoy life.

Living entirely in your adult is not a lot of fun, but it does beat the heck out of being beaten and bullied from within or without, so you have tomake a balance of letting your adult watch over you, but let your child out to play as well.

I knowj this is long but I hope it make some sense. If you are interested in learning more about TA get Eric Berne's book "Games People play" it is a classic. Hugs to you all--thanks for helping me be strong during this terrible time, but I am feeling better and getting my xxxx all in one sock.
_________________
Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Oxdrover,
Doesn't sound a bit crazy. That all makes perfect sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain it so clearly.

That explains your apparent fortitude - you are consciously keeping your adult in charge .

The book that I have just this minute finished reading, ( but not, unfortunately, digesting : ) is called Why Good People Do Bad Things ; Understanding Our Darker Selves, by James Hollis, PH.D. There are some similarities in the concepts that you've touched on...particularly of being conscious of what is being acted on...what old scripts are being played out. The language that Eric Berne uses seems to be simpler and may be easier to put into practice.

Some of it is very different, Dr. Hollis' contention being that we have an obligation to acknowledge our Shadow selves, our darker impulses...the things we do not wish to know about ourselves. The theory being that if we can come to know our Shadow, we can avoid unleashing it's dark energy on the world.

Like you, I have a somewhat 'cumbersome' genetic inheritance. Maternal grandmother bi polar, grandfather an often unemployed alcoholic....paternal grandparents were 'difficult' personalities at best. I have two biological sons, one of whom i thought was P until recently. I now think he had adolescent onset conduct disorder...which , frankly, sounds like a load of crap, but fairly accurately describes our family's experience. He has evidently not escaped the influence of his genetic background. My other son is normal, healthy, high achieving. The experience of parenting these two very different people has inspired me to want to learn all I can about mental health in general...the Shadow aspects in particular.

I will put Eric Berne's book on my request list at the library...(but first, I intend to read at least three fat beach books..from which i hope to learn absolutely nothing: ) Thank you for the recommendation, and thanks again for your response.

paradox

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Paradox,

FYI "conduct disorder" is what they call a psychopath before he turns 18, they can't "diagnose" P until after 18, and they must have had CD prior to 18--so don't get your hopes up yet on your son, I am sorry to say.

Keep in mind, though that there are "degrees" of P from bad to horrible. I got "lucky" and got a Horrible one that is a killer...

My fortitude is failing right this minute. I just drove by my married son's house (next door to my mothers') and there sits the truck my mom bought for the sexual offender pedophile ex-convict in my son's yard.

In some ways I feel kicked in the gut, NUMB, in others, (shrug shoulders) I am not sure what I am feeling that she has this P back in her "good graces" after she promised me he would not be back. My "good little Christian" mother has obviously lied to me---well, he wasn't ACTUALLY in HER yard, he was in C's (my sons') same difference. So I guess that makes it "not a lie" just a "deception."

I am going to start with the packing to move tomorrow morning, right this minute I don't have the energy to stand--but I am getting out of here as fast as I can. Whatever it takes. Fortunately, where my house sits in relationship to theirs I can probaably actually be out of here before they even realize that I am gone. I have no intention of warning them that I am leaving either. I dont think my mother has the slightest idea that I actually WOULD leave so I think it will be a surprise.

Since they have control of my cell phone, I am going to get a new plan on Monday. My old plan is up June 9th, I will lap them over a month so that we can get everyone we need or want to notify notified of our new number. I am also going to call the private detective I hired to run the criminal back ground check on K, and see what he can recommend to me about utilities, land titles, car titles, etc. so that we will be less easily found by anyone (police of course can find you but I mean civilians or PDs,)

I am going to the probate attorney tomorrow though and get a court order for the phone co to give me the pass word on the internet account (the phone is in my late husband's name and they won't even talk to me about it) Once I get the IP number from the computer whiere they logged on I can prosecute for "idenity theft" and I intend to. It is either my mom's computer or my son C's I am sure---this is NOT a random "idenity theft"---

Well, I am going to take a shower and lie down and see if I can sleep a while. Didn't sleep well last night, but didn't take a nap today so maybe can get my sleep pattern off the "vampire" schedule and back on "real people schedule."
_________________
Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Oxdrover,

Yeah, I know the definition. My son is more the 'charming con artist type'. We went through a very bad time of multiple arrests,lies,drugs, rages,stealing, stealing, and stealing...now he has,inexplicably, mellowed out. No more rages. No more criminal activity (that I am aware of - I know you always have to qualify that with these kids)

Sorry doesn't even begin to cut it. : (

Take care of yourself. Sending good thoughts your way.

hugs,
paradox

(p.s. related to a question you posed in another thread - something I learned from Dr. LJ Leedom - all Ps are Ns, not all Ns are Ps )

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Elayne,
I'm sorry for hijacking your thread...am new to this and wasn't paying enough attention: (

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Paradox, I hope things go well with your son, some kids actually do go through an N-stage-from-hell in a "normal" adolescence when they are separating from parental authority, like the terrible twos becomes the terrible teens from hell...and then they become ok people.

I worked in a juvy facility where they biopsoied the insurance and if it was + , they got a Diagnosis that was cured when the insusrance became negative -. ha ha

Some of these kids ended up fairly normal. I was a pretty rebellious teen, not drugs or too "bad" by today's standards--our standards for the "really bad kids" were the boys who smoked behind the gym, Laughing

today's really "bad kids" bring machine guns to school and kill everyone. Twisted Evil

I do hope that your son turns out to have just been rebellious and stays mello'd out. I will keep him in my prayers.
_________________
Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Oxdrover,
I hope that life is looking brighter for you today?

You must have no end of insurance horror stories related to your work experience!
I took my son to a medication provider/psychiatrist, and a talk therapist when things were at their worst. They both pronounced him a 'great kid.' He snowed them. Unfortunately, they also see far worse in terms of violent behavior, etc...he looked pretty tame in comparison.

I was a rebellious teen , too. At the time, I thought it was depression. Now I beleive it may have been a more subtle manifestation of disordered behavior. I've since learned that boys are more at risk, in terms of severity, simply because of their gender.

Thank you for the prayers. No matter what the outcome, I am in this for the long haul. I am not a 'target', so am able to be present for whatever unfolds.

(wow..I am wayyy out of my comfort zone here: )

take care,
paradox

"We are not our history...we are our aspirations."
~ James Hollis

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Paradox,

Thank you for your insightful post. My "rebellion days" were certainly dysfunctional behavior at best--but they didn't last long (in terms of time) and they didn't result in "big problems"---but they did set me up to be a big time victim for my N/P-bio-Father because of low self esteem and the big "Guilt-microchip" in full production.

Fortunately, I got some counseling and that helped a tremendous amount. After my N/P son got into prison, I even passed some of these insights on to my mother, and she seemed to grasp some of the concepts and stopped her "rescuing against my will" with my sons--however, she is back into both the "victim" mode, the "rescuer" mode and in the "Persecutor mode"---In terms of Transactional Analysis those are the "three musical chairs" that dysfunctional (not disordered) people play on. I have opted out of the game and am refusing to sit in any of the chiars, so the "expected behavior" from the "other players" is to increase their pressure on the person who "refuses to play" until the heat get so bad that they will "lose it" and get back into the game (which chair they pick to get back into the game with is immaterial. because everyone is swapping chairs with today's tune anyway"

NC is so important to help you stay out of this "game of musical chairs" and ultimately is the ONLY way with disordered players.

Dysfunctional behavior can be "unlearned" and positive behaviors substituted with therapy, but disordered behavior by disordered "hard ball players" can't be.

Since my incarcerated son is N/P, my ADHD son is dysfunctional, and my mom is a combination of dysfunctional/senile and the ex-con is I think NP, this game is being played in the "big leagues".

That being said, my only option is to "get the heck out of dodge" for my own safety.
_________________
Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

lemondroppr · Joined: 10 Feb 2007 Posts: 1464

Just to back up the 3 roles played as described by Ox, see http://thepsychopath.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=2146

I learned this as the "triangle game" and it happens all the time in dysfunctional relationships. You can play the game with yourself or with others. But you CAN stop playing the game, once you see your part(s) in it.

Lemon

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Oxdrover,
Luckily for me, my mom has had years of therapy. I haven't been to therapy, but I do have the great good fortune to have a good friend who is a psychotherapist (who also happened to have had a psychopath for a father!) She has been an absolute lifesaver in walking me through this experience. I had normal parents and a fairly typical childhood. My dad is deceased, but my mother is aware of , and respects my views regarding , her grandson's problems.

We, all of us, have 'chips' or complexes worth recognizing.

I can't imagine how difficult it must be for you, having so many dsyfunctional players in your life.

I absolutely respect the value of NC. Since learning about personality disorders, I've since left a job where the boss was N. No point in being continually drained by being in close proximity to the truly disordered.

I was able to emotionally detach from my son during the worst of it, but no longer find even that to be neccessary.

I don't know what the proper 'label' is for what's left of my son's problematic behaviors. I can tell you that I continue to see small but quantifiable improvement over time.The two of us have been able to talk about our family history as it relates to the problems that he has had, without his losing his temper - he is able to hear my concerns, and has done some reading and research of his own. ( in all honesty, the entire experience has been much like having someone come back from the dead) He doesn't live at home doesn't ask for money, etc.

In my case, there's no 'ONLY' response. I don't see this as a black/white issue with one size fits all responses. There are other factors that come into play for me, such as the high value that I personally place on obligation and committment. It's not always simple or easy, putting conflicting values into practice. Life is messy. : )

(again, if I were being targeted, my response would be different...and I am certainly not questioning the validity of NC for others)

Thank you for your insight...and thank you Lemon for the link..I will check it out.
best wishes,
paradox

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Oh, yeah, I recognize my part in that triangle...the rescuer. I'm the compulsive fixer.
If you recognize yourself there, too, you might find this helpful;

http://www.coping.org/control/fixing.htm

OxDrover · Joined: 13 May 2007 Posts: 1465 Location: Arkansas USA

Yes, I have "played that game" before--Back years ago when my x-husband and I divorced I took the kids and went to therapy, and also did some reading on my own. My therapist was a TA therapist. I als ohad a book "Games people Play" By Dr. Eric Berne, PhD and it was very helpful. Great book and written so anyone can grasp the ideas. I went on to study more TA and psychology and psychiatriac medicine, and even worked in it for several years.

Recognizing our own parts n the "games" we play is difficult at first because even though we are a "victim" (allow someone to persecute us) we SWAP chairs from victim-persecutor-rescuer and back again.

By looking at your current family or other status, you can "pin point" who is sitting in what chair and why they are there and usually when they will swap for another one and in response to what...looking at it frm an outside perspective of "chairs" rather than what the "specific problem" is (and which problem it is doesn't actually matter--the game is the same) then you can realize what is going on and opt out of the game even if you have been sucked back into it.

Just like animals that are conditioned to receive a reward (usually of food) from a certain trick or behavior or pusshing a certain lever, if the reward is taken away suddenly (you dropout of the game) the "animals" will INTENSIFY their behavior in an effort to get their reward, because "it always worked in the past, so maybe if I do it better, harder, longer, more intensly, the reward will surely come. IT IS ONLY WHEN YOU REMAIN OUT OF ALL GAMEY BEHAVIOR that eventually their games with you will stop because you haven't rewarded them at all. If you reward them even once in a while, it will resume with a vengence.

Slot machines work because of the randomness of the "reward"--if a slot machine gave you a reward every time and then suddenly stopped, you would put in another coin or two, but very quickly stop. However, with the seeming randomness of the "rewards" the little blue haired lady sitting there dropping in coins always thinks, "well maybe the next one will be the big jackpot" and keeps on playing even without a reward...playing just on the HOPE of a reward randomly delivered.

Analyzing your family, and yourself, and looking dispassionately at your family's "favorite" games--some of which have gone on for generations, as in the case of my family, and the "assigned" roles each person in the family takes---and if one member dies or leaves the group, the roles will be shuffled around againl, but the games will go on. Just like the mail goes through regardless of rain, sleet or snow--the games never stop until someone is aware enough and healthy enough to stop them.

Even then it is a struggle to stay out of them, just like alcoholic sobriety is one day at a time, so is "gameing"---and so you have to be as determined to stay out as you can--and when you allow yourself to get sucked back in, as soon as you recognize what is going on, GET OUT of the game. Stay out, and if NC is the only way you can accomplish that, then do so. No game is "harmless" they all lead to unhappiness and bad feelings, but some can result in a GREAT DEAL OF HARM. "Body piercing by Smith and Wesson" can be one of those harmsin really "hard ball" families....especially with Ns and Ps involved or other disordered personality types....and they are excellent gamers, too.
_________________
Life is lived forward, but understood backwards.

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Guess I'm simply not disspassionate enough to regard all family interactions as a 'game', and the people as as 'chairs' or peices being endlessly manipulated.

This is beginning to sound like an introduction into the doctrine of NC. It has a very fundamentalist tone...this way or no way. Not a tact that I find particularly illuminating.

There is something distinctly narcissitic about basing one's willingness to engage in human relationship on whether or not the 'other' endorses one's own valus.