Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Riccy101 · Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 287

I read that N's hide their true feelings of inferiority behind their grandiose behavior, not commensurate with actual accomplishments.

I am wondering what it would do to an N, if one were to verbally assault THEM with words of how inferior THEY are? For example, "You've never been any kind of mother to me. You can't do anything except whine and moan about what others should be doing for YOU. You're selfish and arrogant."

(I'm being kind for the sake of tactfulness. You fill in your own words as you would say them.)

How do you think the N would react?

Riccy

amybrad1971 · Joined: 08 Mar 2007 Posts: 114

Oh I know how he would react...he would say well it is because you are such a rotten this or that...or its because you did this or that...he would never ever take the blame...ever. I've tried...and the insults just escalate...and at one point it became violent...I do not EVER recommend doing this to a N. it can spin out of control...JMO and from my own experience. No matter what you say to them...you will never win...they don't feel...they don't care...no matter how much you wish it to be.

Sad

Cricket · Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 113

In addition to the derranged denials and derogatory screaming, I'm pretty sure that my Nmom would go (and has gone) straight for my soft underbelly. I can handle the insults and the general insanity, but I cannot stand The Sobbing. It's rare that she goes to that weepy place, but it makes me feel absolutely terrible because the fact is that I am happy in my work with friends and family that love me, and she is alone and miserable. Yes, it's her fault, but regardless, when I lose control and point out her many abuses, it only serves to make us both feel terrible (me, terribly sad, her, terribly batshit nuts).

The thought that she would actually take into consideration even the lightest of criticisms is as absurd as the thought that going off on her would make me feel any better about myself. Hence the no contact.

windinthetrees · Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 128

in my experience, confronting someone like this usually puts me in tears, i revert back to old childhood patterns of self blame and doubt ie" I must be crazy or overreacting to them" b/c they have become masters at what I call "flipping" a situation , comment or whatever around on the non-N in a flash; before one even knows what hit them. They play innocent, the martyr, I've been told my perceptions were all wrong etc...it is not really worth it unless you can remain CALM and know you are doing this for YOUR sanity and yours alone. they will not change, nor will they stop the behavior --or if they do-- they will continue it w/ someone else b/c they know you are not giving them their N supply and they will RESENT and HATE you for it; but so be it. It really SUCKS being in this dynamic and the only thing I can say is stay out of contact w/ them as much as humanly possible. I am not even sure if this has gone off topic, but I do understand that it would be so nice if we could just tell them what we really think. Believe me, I have hd fantasies about doing just that.

sheenie2000 · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 169 Location: North Carolina

I have done it a few times bc I needed to get it out of my system.
The reaction was shock and utter surprise. "Me?? I would never say that." She would get all self righteous and have a holier than thou attitude. She denied denied and denied. She would say "ur too sensitive, YOU interpreted it that way. I ddin't mean it that way." And then it would just go back to all the horrible things I did in my life and what a horrible child I am and a horrible person. They never admit to their mistakes or faults.

I verbally attacked her once or twice. I called her a bitch a fucking whore and all these horrible things. Again I realized what I was doing and needed to do it. But the consequences are not fun. She was irate. And said ti back to me and brought it up several times afterwards.

Another time she just was surprised adn shut up. She got scared bc I was fighting back and she ran away.
_________________
"Happiness is not an accident. Nor is it something you wish for. Happiness is something you design." - Jim Rohn

justmee · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 692

The one and only time I ever stood up to my mom, she denied all of it. She has a way of turning everything around so its you, not her that is mean.

justmee

StainedClassKing · Guest

want_to_learn · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 33 Location: Scotland, UK

I found it best to keep my thoughts to myself and walk away. I confronted my parents once.they both said they had been bad parents cos kids don't come with a handbook and anyway I was a rotten daughter.

StainedClassKing · Guest

thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 488

StainedClassKing: your situation sounds like mine: NF and headcase co-dependent bitch mother (who I do love, God knows why sometimes).

As for the question. My old man will get upset, quiet and agitated if I really drill him with confidence (I've only done this a couple of times). If I'm a pussy about it he'd turn it against me so I was the bad guy. Either way the the old girl would go back him up. Fairly recently I told NF "we're not friends and I don't like you." Next day he's asking me to play golf with him and goofing around. So you can go nuts and it doesn't register with them.

Riccy101 · Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 287

Instead of posting the link I thought I'd just post this info from Sam Vaknin. It pertains to arguing in court but the same could be applied to your personal life's interactions. This pertains to the question asked about how the N would react...

Question:

How can I expose the lies of the narcissist in a court of law? He acts so convincing!

Answer:

You should distinguish the factual pillar from the psychological pillar of any cross-examination of a narcissist or deposition made by him.

It is essential to be equipped with absolutely unequivocal, first rate, thoroughly authenticated and vouched for information. The reason is that narcissists are superhuman in their capacity to distort reality by offering highly "plausible" alternative scenarios, which fit most of the facts.

It is very easy to "break" a narcissist – even a well-trained and well-prepared one.

Here are a few of the things the narcissist finds devastating:

Any statement or fact, which seems to contradict his inflated perception of his grandiose self.

Any criticism, disagreement, exposure of fake achievements, belittling of "talents and skills" which the narcissist fantasises that he possesses.

Any hint that he is subordinated, subjugated, controlled, owned or dependent upon a third party.

Any description of the narcissist as average and common, indistinguishable from many others.

Any hint that the narcissist is weak, needy, dependent, deficient, slow, not intelligent, naive, gullible, susceptible, not in the know, manipulated, a victim, an average person of mediocre accomplishments.

The narcissist is likely to react with rage to all these and, in an effort to re-establish his fantastic grandiosity, he is likely to expose facts and stratagems he had no conscious intention of exposing.

The narcissist reacts indignantly, with wrath, hatred, aggression, or even overt violence to any infringement of what he perceives to be his natural entitlement.

Narcissists believe that they are so unique and that their lives are of such cosmic significance that others should defer to their needs and cater to their every whim without ado. The narcissist feels entitled to interact or be treated (or questioned) only by unique individuals. He resents being doubted and "ridiculed".

Any insinuation, hint, intimation, or direct declaration that the narcissist is not special at all, that he is average, common, not even sufficiently idiosyncratic to warrant a fleeting interest inflame the narcissist. He holds himself to be omnipotent and omniscient.

(continued below)

This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited"

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Tell the narcissist that he does not deserve the best treatment, that his desires are not everyone's priority, that he is boring or ignorant, that his needs can be catered to by any common practitioner (medical doctor, accountant, lawyer, psychiatrist), that he and his motives are transparent and can be easily gauged, that he will do what he is told, that his temper tantrums will not be tolerated, that no special concessions will be made to accommodate his inflated sense of self, that he is subject to court procedures, etc. – and the narcissist will likely lose control.

The narcissist believes that he is the cleverest, far above the madding crowd.

Contradict him often, disagree with him and criticize his judgement, expose his shortcomings, humiliate and berate him ("You are not as intelligent as you think you are", "Who is really behind all this? It takes sophistication which you don't seem to posses ", "So, you have no formal education", "You are (mistake his age, make him much older)", "What did you do in your life? Did you study? Do you have a degree? Did you ever establish or run a business? Would you define yourself as a success?", "Would your children share your view that you are a good father?", "You were last seen with a certain Ms. … who is (suppressed grin) a stripper (in demeaning disbelief)".

I know that many of these questions cannot be asked outright in a court of law. But you can insinuate them or hurl these sentences at him during the breaks, inadvertently during the examination or deposition phase, etc. Narcissists hate innuendos even more than they detest direct attacks.

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 363 Location: Minnesota

Hi --Riccy quoted SV and I would just like to share my observations in my own situation and hear others observations on these things

Quote:

It is very easy to "break" a narcissist – even a well-trained and well-prepared one.Here are a few of the things the narcissist finds devastating:

Any statement or fact, which seems to contradict his inflated perception of his grandiose self. Boy this didnt "break" or "devastate" my Nsis at all. She just stuck her nose up even further.

Any criticism, disagreement, exposure of fake achievements, belittling of "talents and skills" which the narcissist fantasizes that he possesses.
This one just made my Nsis RAGE verbally and physically. If thats breaking them, that worked-I just had to make sure I was somewhere else!:>)

Any hint that he is subordinated, subjugated, controlled, owned or dependent upon a third party. This does not work in my experience with domineering, controlling types who are the matriarch or patriarch of the family.

Any description of the narcissist as average and common, indistinguishable from many others. OH BOY, THIS WORKED!! IT MADE HER TOTALLY FREAK OUT!!!! She left me alone for several months at a time when I did this.

Any hint that the narcissist is weak, needy, dependent, deficient, slow, not intelligent, naive, gullible, susceptible, not in the know, manipulated, a victim, an average person of mediocre accomplishments. NO, this just gave her a new venue for manipulation."Poor me."

The narcissist is likely to react with rage to all these and, in an effort to re-establish his fantastic grandiosity, he is likely to expose facts and stratagems he had no conscious intention of exposing. YES, I witnessed this, especially in writing. She really exposed herself in writing. She is actually more careful in talking than writing.

The narcissist reacts indignantly, with wrath, hatred, aggression, or even overt violence to any infringement of what he perceives to be his natural entitlement. Narcissists believe that they are so unique and that their lives are of such cosmic significance that others should defer to their needs and cater to their every whim without ado. The narcissist feels entitled to interact or be treated (or questioned) only by unique individuals. He resents being doubted and "ridiculed". Any insinuation, hint, intimation, or direct declaration that the narcissist is not special at all, that he is average, common, not even sufficiently idiosyncratic to warrant a fleeting interest inflame the narcissist. He holds himself to be omnipotent and omniscient. YEP. Only continually telling her she was a REGULAR PERSON totally got RID of her. That and telling her she needed a counselor, that I would NOT be treated like an object, and that some religion wouldnt hurt her either! THAT did it. It scared the big bully AWAY!I no longer fear that she is manipulating some new thing to get back at me with!! YEAY!!!

Laughing

Now, how about the rest of you? What was YOUR experience with the above?

oaktree
_________________
Once You Have Been Bitten By A Snake, You Are Very Cautious, Even Of A Coiled Rope.

The Dalai Lama

seekingserenity · Joined: 14 Mar 2007 Posts: 179

In 1990 when my sister and I attempted to level with Nmom about her wacko behavior (I didn't know it was NPD then), Nmom cried and said she was not capable of changing. My sister and I offered to pay for therapy, etc, and she refused.

In 1993 (I still didn't know about NPD) I wrote Nmom a letter (I had moved to another state by then). I assumed she was "normal," and I wrote a letter to her explaining what I needed from her in order to have a relationship with me. She wrote back the most mean, nasty, abusive letter. The message: I am an ungrateful daughter, and I should be asking about her. I was completely devastated. In my letter, I was, in a way, pleading to have a normal relationship with her, and saying, look mom, here's how. Ask about me, about these things. To be rejected and abused -- oh my God. I had a very good friend, who supported me through all of my devastation. She is an angel.

In 2002, my brother told Nmom to F--- Off. Told her she was a crazy a------ and to leave him alone. Nmom then came to my house and unloaded on my husband and I for several hours, and the next day also. She was really wounded, but she remained indignant. No way did she take a word of it to heart -- just "how dare he talk to me like that, etc." Never, ever examining her self to see if he had a point, etc.

A therapist once told me that if someone criticizes an N, the N will do ANYTHING to stop the criticism. They can't stand it. The N will lash out at the critic, verbally, etc. Will say anything to get the criticism to stop and to teach that person never to "disrespect" him or her again. So, if we criticize N, N will be especially abusive to us to get it to stop. So we learn to walk on eggshells to protect ourselves from the verbal abuse.

But what I find just as abusive is to not speak my truth with N. To walk on those eggshells because truth would make her freak out and abuse me. It feels that I am letting myself down, or I am letting her "walk" on me like a doormat. So, that is why NC is best.

--Serenity

Riccy101 · Joined: 18 Feb 2007 Posts: 287

Remember, Sam Vak was writing about the N on trial in court, not personally. That was my own observation. Point taken, Oaktree. Perhaps there should be a disclaimer on the end of that message that reads, "DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME".

Riccy

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 363 Location: Minnesota

Hi Riccy--ya I mistakenly connected those two things. Like those commercials with the race cars on the edge of the buildings---"dont try this at home, unless you have a fairy godmother that can whisk you out of there when they start raging"---because, frankly, we have all had enough abuse.

Before I really scared the Nsis away (for good, I hope!)being straight up with her took its toll on me and my healing. (not only my emotional healing--my blood pressure and cholesterol went way up too). I WAS frank without being abusive. And she got so nuts that I couldn't do it again without a counselor present. And even THEN, she started in with her verbal abuse and rage (and she looked like Mt. St. Helens about to erupt). So the therapist just let her decide what to do next after he gently suggested she open her head to a little different way of looking at it. She decided to leave and never come back. (I was glad I was on the other side of a very heavy marble conference table!!:>))

Had I been here on this board a few months before, maybe I would have realized that no conversation, no counseling, no "working at it" helps, because they are so twisted around in their heads they cant and wont see anyone elses point of view or feelings. Could have saved myself alot of time. I just wanted it to work so bad. One thing all the frank communication did--I think I scared her away for GOOD! Will see on the next holiday.
_________________
Once You Have Been Bitten By A Snake, You Are Very Cautious, Even Of A Coiled Rope.

The Dalai Lama