Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

ricochet echoes · Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Europe

Hi

I know we all talk of our NPs as if they are sneaks and manipulators, trying to twist us around their little fingers...etc

I read a post a while ago about someones NP trying to make contact through cards although they must know that NC is what their child has chosen. And the general tone in that post or most posts about NPs is that they do it all intentionally to be deliberately creepy and sneaky and get their own way etc..

Now before I go further I admit that I think of my NM in this way and these terms, the same as most of us. I think that she is a manipulating, dangerous, nasty peice of work who must be sitting working out what mischief and disruption she is going to lay on who ever next, or who is she going to turn around a situation on which she created but wants to wriggle out of it next!...

But, I suddenly began to think about it... if NPD is a disorder then surely it is the way these people are naturally... as in not contrived, as such?
The manipulation, the destruction of peoples lives and characters, the abusive behavior, playing the eternal victim....and so on - does having a disorder mean that they truly are what they are and do not mean it, and cannot help it or do they have control but just do not use it unless it is suitable?

RE

sheenie2000 · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 169 Location: North Carolina

i understand what you mean. i wondered this same thing.

on one hand i want to think that maybe they truly dont know that they shouldnt do things like this. maybe they were born this way and it's out of their hands. maybe their heart was born this way. it was black or stone. ( i imagine it that way at times). or something happened to them when they were young that traumatized them so much that their hearts became hardened and caused them to be this way.

but the only reason i dont think that's a possibility is bc they know how to act in front of other ppl. they know how to be nice to other ppl, how to treat them, how to treat strangers, friends and coworkers. so if they know that, then why are they so cruel behind closed doors?

i can still feel the hate in her words and how her face would contort when saying simple things like 'you aren't capable of buying groceries' or 'u can't handle being married.' small, meaningless messages that would bring chills to my bones. where does such disgust come from?

i wish i knew where that hate came from. i asked her several times why she was angry, why she was mad. i asked her to go to therapy. that cruelty she exhibited still brings me down to tears even thoguh she's dead now.

her friends the ones she talked to everything about, she told them that we were the cause of her pain, her anguish, that we were these awful children and we did terrible things to her. that's the excuse she gave to friends, i dont know if she really believed that in her heart. now only she knows and God knows why she had all this hatred inside of her.
_________________
"Happiness is not an accident. Nor is it something you wish for. Happiness is something you design." - Jim Rohn

sheenie2000 · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 169 Location: North Carolina

oh and another thing. i think that she had a disease of the heart. we as humans have health ailments or injuries. i think she had more of a spiritual disease. like our spirit's on this forum has kindness, or upbeatness, or our spirit is outgoing, etc. Ns spirt was defected. their heart was diseased. not something that can be cured by traditional medicine. i tried praying but that didnt cure my Ns spirit, not sure if there is another way or it's just something incurable like some forms of cancer...
_________________
"Happiness is not an accident. Nor is it something you wish for. Happiness is something you design." - Jim Rohn

justmee · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 692

Hi....

I know what you are saying. My grandmother (mothers mom) was put in a mental hospital, my mother told me she had died. I found out years later that she did not die, my mother would not speak of her because it hurt her to much....
I see the same in my mom, I do not know if she does this intentionally or if she is mentaly ill. I do know one thing, the things she has done in the past have driven me to try s*uicide because of the pain. I know that I have to cut her away to keep myself healthy.
I wish my mom all the happiness in the world but it can not be at my expense anymore...
Okay, now I am confusing myself, lol....but that is one tough question.

justmee
_________________
If you can not deal with it, or change it, then its time to walk away from it.

lynn1234 · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 660

I believe it is a little bit of both a personality disorder that she can and can't control..
I think to some degree it may be genitic.. Nature and Nurture.

My moms dad is a Narcissist.. Not sure about his dad but his mother was cold and distant.(
do know that my Grandfathers Grandfather( my Great-Great grandfather) had depression and his wife was also put in a mental institution. She was obsessed with religion to the point of seriously neglecting her children.. I don't know what her disorder was..
But obviously mental illness runs in my mothers family on her fathers side..

I do know that my mother was seriously traumatized by her father...
Should I blame him? He also had disordered parents and disordered grandparents.

My mother can often control her manipulating vindictiveness but at some time she is going to let it out.. She can only control it for awhile..
I just found out a week ago that she tried to get in between another relatives marriage and accused his wife.. who is careing etc.. of only being with him for his money... the story gets even sicker but I don't want to write a lengthy post here on it... This just validated once again that her behavior is sick and that she is an equal oppertunity employer of her contempt and hatred for all who cross her path... It's sad.. really sad...

I think she lives in a state of constant Jealousy and serious Need for Attention even if it is negative attention.. she doesn't care!

zanderman1 · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 369

Hi everyone -- just thought I'd chime in and say that I have had all the same thoughts on this that have been posted. It seems as if they really can't help being the way they are, and in my NM's case, she seems incapable of even seeing how damaging her behavior is. I think my NM must have gone thru a horrible childhood--her M was violently crazy and her F left (probably for his own survival) & there was no money & sometimes no food, so I do feel a certain amount of pity and compassion for my NM. However, the facts of my life don't change:

ANY interaction with my NM is excruciatingly painful & damaging to me

and

Ns don't get better.

ricochet echoes · Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Europe

Hi

Thanks everyone for their input on this.

I have been mulling it over in my mind also, asking the same question to myself.

I believe N's to be immoral, but to realize that they have damaged ways of thinking, acting and living which has been perhaps aggravated by being pin-pointed in the past by some person somewhere along the line, as not quite correct and they have been chastised for it - which drives them even further into absolving themselves, becoming the victim and even making some one else 'carry the can' whatever it takes to save their own reputation and skin. It also results in the controling and manipulating part of their behavior which gets larger and larger with every conquest that they win. The ultimate manipulation begins at home with the weakest and easiest subjects who are molded to gratify, comply and be useful to the N's personal cause and the coverup or alternatively to help paint the bigger picture and if one of those weakest resist in any way or move in some direction to stand against the wrong being done they are already set up by the NP to (metaphorically) hang themselves with their own rope.

N's ultimately cannot stand being blamed for any of their actions and must not be discovered. They just cannot 'take it', to the point of reversing their actions on to someone else just to be free of it and to impress that they are the poor creatures who have suffered the most - which in itself shows flawed logic, as why not just deny all knowledge opposed to keep the story but put it in someone else’s plate.

So to me, it is a knowledge that they cannot conform to what they know is not acceptable to others, somewhere deep down inside themselves.
They cannot stand the blame of discovery or any blame and in the process of trying to be the expected normal, the best that they can come up with is to make others look bad and make themselves the victim in comparison, as this is their only logic and at the same time possibly assuage jealousies on those close to them who are in reality more plausable, worthy or acceptable than themselves.
In achieving the result desired they also get a kick and a justification which satisfies and settles any doubts about themselves and their untruths. They feel that what they had to do to survive was necessary and normal for them in their limited capacity to sort it out. Therefore, they cannot help it - it is a compulsion for their survival, even if they know it is not acceptable to the masses - they have to do it. There is no other way for them as they cannot reason as we do whether they realize they are wrong or not. It is as natural for them to be this way as it is for others to be honest and genuinely desire not to hurt others and take blame where relevant.

This is in my opinion some of the reasons why they are what they are ...of course it is far more complex and there are so many more traits of this condition that I did not cover.

I hope my post made some sense as it was rather complicated to write about all those intricacies of what an N may be or why they may be.

This opinion is open to discussion and welcome to comment as I dearly feel the need to learn as much theory on this as possible

Smile

RE

PS: My NM also had childhood where she was extremely spoiled from an older mother and suddenly when aged 8 yrs when her mother died and after that she was neglected. TBH I tell her all the time at least she had a decent mother for 8 years! of her life! My sis and I got the result of her later childhood.

Pretty_Lady · Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 554

I think that they are aware and they choose their actions. I have explain things to my mother over and over. She does not hear me. She knows right from wrong, but she chooses what is ALWAYS right for HER. And we all know what it means to N-mother. It's so painful to look back. I could not even choose a color for myself because if I did, for a second she would loose the control over me. One small example. And she watched me to be an airhead in her eyes. That's how she made me feel. And she felt no sadness.
Either way, they are aware or not, I choose to stay away. If she can not hear the truth about herself and the other person, I am not going to stick around watch her to manipulate and control me, and live my life for me that benefits her better. I am so lucky for breaking away and being able to support myself.
Ahh ...
PL
_________________
The way out is through the door you came in.
R.D. Laing

lynn1234 · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 660

Last night I was reading the book "forget about you,lets talk about me."
It mentioned in there that N's usually learned to control and dominate to get their needs met by the example of one N parent. My Grandfather was "always right" and Mr. know-it-all. A cerebral narcissist. He thought he was a genius and everyone else was a fool... I think he taught my mother a thing or two on how to be a Narcissist.. I think growing up she took lots of notes while watching his example..

There was also some info about N's having an attachment disorder with their parents. That their parents didn't meet their physical and emotional needs. This caused N's to mistrust others and to see the world as a scary and threatening place where only the strongest surrvive.

I was wondering if the N's lack of trust also causes them to lash out.
My mom often acts paranoid.. If I am kind to her she thinks I have some hidden agenda..She also thinks the same of other people..An example is: If she asks me for money to buy something she needs and I give it to her later she accuses me of flaunting my money.. If I don't give her money then I don't care about her and I am stingy...and my husbands family is more important to me than she is..... It's a no win situation...

With this paranoia it's no wonder that N's can't have healthy relationships.
But then again, maybe the paranoia is really just a manipulation tactic...
Who knows...?

Thanks Zanderman for reminding me that what ever the cause, even if we have pity for our N's..... it doesn't change the facts... They hurt us and it's best to keep our distance...

zanderman1 · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 369

Ricochet, I think you really got it -- your analysis rings true to me, and makes perfect sense to me. It's a complicated and confounding situation, anyway.

lynn, I love the title of the book you're reading! Sounds like another staple book for ACONs.

cecelouise · Joined: 10 Feb 2008 Posts: 15

You know what helps me now? I am trying not to understand. I've spent 37 years trying, and I find I am sadder and more baffled than ever.

I read Women Who Love Too Much - it's about partner relationships, but it really helped me look at how "other focused" I am - of course, as kids, we had to be.

I struggle with it in my husband, too. I have to try my hardest to not get in his head to try to figure out if he really loves me, if he's doing it on purpose, if it's just my craziness.

Even if our moms' childhoods were the ultimate cause of their narcissism, we can't change them, or even help them. I think I have to trust that she is smart enough to find her own way, like I am. If she doesn't, I have to try to accept her choice.

I still have moments of panic - what if she gets sick? Is she lonely? Did I imagine all this to create a scapegoat for MY craziness? But none of this thinking (spinning) ever leads to any clarity.

Besides, if I am making a mistake with the NC, I guess I can forgive myself later.

lynn1234 · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 660

I read today that Narcissit mothers lack concern for the consiquences of their actions, which is rooted in profound selfishness... rather than a lack of empathy

thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 486

I believe the key to understanding dysfunction to see it as unconscious living. N's are 100% unconscious, this is why they are unique. Everyone is ignorant to a certain degree (is anyone omniscient?) it is a matter of how much. N's are idiots, foolish people, the stupid of the stupid. They may be cunning or knowledgeable or charismatic but they are basically broccoli on legs, they serve no purpose other than to contribute to the suffering our precious blue planet and the creatures that inhabit it, including themselves.

Is broccoli on legs responsible for its idiotic behaviour? Yes, certainly. But if they could see they wouldn't be doing it would they? They would see the absurdity of their dumbarsery and would stop before they annihilated themselves.

N's can't empathise, without empathy you are nothing more than talking meat.

ricochet echoes · Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Europe

Hi

Thanks for your responses to this thread, it is very interesting to read everyone's experience and views on this.

( I just moved to a new house and do not get internet until next week so cannot get to a pc so often until then, but will be more regular here again:-).

I think that profound selfishness is the same (or very similar) as lack of empathy, if one had empathy then one would be a lot less selfish and be able to comprehend others feelings and know what the consequences of ones actions caused.

I also think that 'broccoli on legs' is a very good description (lol). Yes they are very intellectually & emotionally stupid and are so inwards that they never actually learn anything outside themselves that most of us attempt to understand the world around us whether that be physical things, knowledge or how to behave (except how to manipulate, step on people to their own ends and survive in their own small 'sicko' universe).

Smile

RE

wownowfree · Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 255

I like Thayilflies answer that they are foolish and stupid. N's have been around for a long, long time in history. Every great spiritual text mentions them. In the Bible they are called fools. I like Proverbs:

Like a dog returns to its own vomit, a fool returns to his folly.
Proverbs

Also, in the book "what would Buddha Do" there is a quote by Buddha "that being angry with a fool is like be angry with fire for burning". The N will always return to their behavior. In a way they are unique in that all humans can learn from their mistakes except fools. The best description I've ever heard about a fool is the difference between an idiot and a fool: An idiot is incapable of learning from his mistakes, a fool chooses not to.