For all the ladies in nasty custody battles,

One of the problems we have as both mothers and wives of N's, is the inability to communicate how our N's treat us and our children. I picked up a book at the library the other day and it seems to be an excellent resource to use, when we can't officially diagnose our partners as N's.

The title of the book is The Batterer as Parent by Lundy Bancroft and Jay G. Silverman. I think it is a particularly useful because it covers almost all of the behaviors N's have, but it doesn't call them N's, it calls them batterers. The author's definition of a batterer is " A batterer is a person who exercises a pattern of coercive control in a partner relationship, punctuated by one or more acts of intimidating physical violence, sexual assault or credible threat of physical violence. This pattern of control and intimidation may be predominantly psychological, economic or sexual in nature or may rely primarily on the use of physical violence."

It goes on to list the characteristics of batterers which include: control,entitlement, selfishness and self centeredness, superiority, possessiveness, confusion of love and abuse, manipulativeness, contradictory statements and behaviors, externalization of responsibility, denial, minimization and victim blaming. ( Does any of this sound familiar????)

It goes further to include chapters on the batterer's impact on the home and the batterer in custody and visitation disputes. One of the most interesting things I read was the statement that batterers are more likely than non batterers to seek custody of their children.

It is not a long book, and I would highly recommend it to those of you going through custody battles. I would certainly give a copy to my lawyer. Nancy CT, you were talking about a manual- this book comes pretty darn close.

Peace, Shadey Lady

Shadey~ YES! AN excellent book. I highly recommend it as well. However, it did me litle good in the courts. My N, being a police officer, knew how to act, etc. and all anyone ever cared about was that N gets his allotted time with our daughter. No matter how he treated in, even in her presence...
But for those of you who are just beginning the custody battle, or for those of you who need excellent advice on what to expect in court (Bancroft was right on the mark) I think it is a must read.
Thanks for posting this.

Thanks Shadey Lady. I am going to look for this book.

Even though the "storm" of the custody battle has passed (for good, I hope), I still find it difficult that my d's father is so abusive and manipulative.

Thank you for this recommendation! I have a settlement conference on the 27th. My atty. said it is a waste of time because my N doesn't want to settle; he wants to dictate.

I'm going to look for this book today. I'd like to read it before Wednesday.

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Unfortunately, this book is not in stock in my area. I ordered it and it will ship on Monday. I won't have it before Wed. but that's okay since it's very unlikely that we will settle.

Summer...I will post about what happens after my conference. I'm sure it will be something along the lines of...

...N wants everything but I want what is rightfully mine so N will disagree and then will tell some more lies about me.

Or, maybe his atty. will talk some since into him once they see the pictures of just how little I have at home. I took the pictures because N is requesting the value of half of the furniture, etc. I have crap for furniture. I don't even have a bed in my bedroom because N took the bedroom furniture. I am using two of the drawers in my D's dresser for my clothes. My atty. told me to take pics and maybe N's atty. will realize that N is just being an ass and set him straight.

We'll see...

superheromom,

One thing I've learned - N's lawyer won't ever be on your side. It's one of the most baffling things of all for me, how can she believe his bullsh*t, even after she sees the evidence? My lawyer says to stop thinking about it, even if she sees the truth, his lawyer will never admit to it.

To sit across the table from this woman with photos of my battered body between us, and to have her support the N in his justification of those bruises... mind-bending! To have her flat out lie about his destruction of our business, with the evidence sitting right in front of her... leaves me speechless.

Sorry, but his attorney won't give a damn about the photos of your crappy furnishings. They'll probably claim that you hid the good stuff.

Does this settlement conference include a third party, or is it just the two of you and your lawyers? I really wish I had a record of our meetings. I didn't realize that our lawyers don't count as witnesses. Ask for a recording, a stenographer, anything! Otherwise, there will be no record of the proceedings, and the N can lie, lie, lie about what was said. That's exactly what mine is doing now - lying about what was settled at the conference, saying that my lawyer and I instructed him to destroy the business. Good grief!! His lawyer just supports whatever lies he chooses to tell at the moment.

ShadeyLady, Thanks for the book recommendation. I am avoiding the custody battle at all cost. The kids' therapist says I'm doing the right thing, and they're doing OK with their time with their N-father so far. But I will still read it - I would like any insight at all into what sort of father he will be without me there to run interference for the kids. My library doesn't have it, but I will get it through interlibrary loan right away.

Thanks again,
Nancy

Nancy - You're correct, of course, about N's atty. What was I thinking? *smacks forehead*

My understanding is that I will be in one room with my atty. and N will be in another room w/his atty. Well, N is teleconferencing since he lives 2000+ miles away. The commissioner will go back and forth. It is also my understanding that what happens in during the conference cannot be used at trial so I don't think I can have it recorded. I'll double check, though.

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My atty. has worked with N's atty. before and has respect for her. I think that's why he said to take pics of my crap so she can see for herself what little I have and expose N's true motives. In other words, my atty. thinks that N's atty. believes his lies now but may have a talk with N once she sees proof that they are nothing more than lies.

But, N's atty. is being paid lots of cash to make me look like a horrible person. We'll see how it goes.

My atty's assistant said that she didn't think the conference can be recorded in any way. She said she was going to talk to my atty. about it and let me know. I'll find out for sure on Monday.

I said that this conference is a waste of time. D's therapist said that this conference is a waste of time. My atty. said that this conference is a waste of time. We fully expect to show up, not settle and leave within 30 minutes.

N honestly thinks that we will settle...excuse me...that he will win at this conference.

Superheromom, My atty said the very same thing about N's atty, that she has worked with her before and that she has integrity and comon sense. It didn't help. I would imagine that my lawyer would be just as ruthless if she were N's atty - Attorneys lie. When I told mine that I had recently learned that, she cracked up laughing. Yes, they do LOL.

Yes, a waste of time. At least as long as you go in with no expectations, it won't hurt you.

Nancy - No expectations. Can only be pleasantly surprised.

Regarding N attorneys -- ExN had one attorney who was very passionate. She fought hard, and she fought nasty. I really do believe that she was one of N's victims and she truly bought in to all of his lies. At a certain point, ExN and this attorney just parted ways. Next attorney had little use for ExN and fired ExN in less than 6 months. 3rd attorney was even more passionate than the first attorney. This is the attorney who managed to drag things out so that the ExN could continue to have unsupervised parenting time even after his landlord turned him into the police for sexual abuse.

At one point, our case manager told me that when 3rd attorney finally was given a copy of ExN's psych evaluation, she knew the attorney would quit fighting everything and using all the stall tactics. I don't really know if ExN ever released the psych evaluation to 3rd attorney (he refused to sign a copy over to my attorney and to d's therapist, despite being court-ordered to do so). But like a rubber-band, things finally snapped. For whatever reason, 3rd attorney had enough. After the last time he represented ExN in court, 3rd attorney walked over to me and wished me luck.

I think Ns can really misuse the passion and conviction of attorneys. Still, I do think if the N is paying the attorney well and generally complying with the law, most attorneys will put up with them. You can't count on these attorneys to do the right thing, but they still have some professional standards to uphold. Somewhere I found an excellent website on the professional duties of family law attorneys. If I find it, I will post a link on the website.

I do agree that if at all possible, child custody fights should be avoided. However, when you are concerned for your child or children's' well being while with the N, what choice do you have? The age of the children and the overall mental state of the N must be considered individually in each case.

She wasn't prepared.

I lost! I lost my 6 yr old daughter to a sociopathic N! So good at lying that the judge out right accused me of lying & refused to believe that N was abusive & violent.

It's hard to get by day by day. I see her every other weekend & Tuesdays for dinner.

After leaving him I spent 2 yrs still under his control & it cost me big time. His new wife has a son(not N's) - that counted toward the judgment.

I'm broken & devastated. When we were together, he took away my self worth, now he has taken my baby!

N

MomInPain,

I am so sorry that the legal system has failed you to this point. Don't give up. I can't imagine the pain you are going through, but your d needs you more than ever!

Lawyer are paid to do a job. Paid to defend the N no matter what. And if they realize their client is a N, I'm sure they feel they have to fight dirty to WIN. Again, you can't change a N....or their Lawyers.

My ExN, told his lawyer what to do. They put in writing, terrible lies to scare me into giving him what he wanted. Which was 75% of our assets. I paid my lawyer to fight for me because I didn't know how to fight for myself. And I definitely didn't understand the legal system. I relied on my lawyer to fight for me and defend me.

My lawyer bought into all the ExN "victum" crap. The N told him that I cheated on him and the my father is a millionaire and my father was paying for the divorce and etc., etc., etc.. MY lawyer helped my ex by walking in and out of the "negotiation" room while we were talking about Child Support. My ExN only supplies us with a Feb 2002 check stub. Later I found out that he made more money on his commission then his salary. (two seperate checks) My lawyer did not do his job and vialated the Lawyer/client code.

Now that the ExN has custody of our boys, he is asking for more child support for one child than he ever paid for 2. Now I am researching the internet for information, documents, FACTS. I've already caught one thing that my lawyer "didn't know".

We have to help ourselves. We are good people and trusting people. We are not weak.

Hi, I am NEW to this forum and I have appreciated these posts and comments so I have decided to join.I hope this is not out of topic.I am a single mom,50! and healthcare professional.I am going through a custody battle that is unthinkable.12 yrs ago I was dating a man and we became engaged.I discovered that he was basically a golddigger/parasite.I broke off the engagement and called off the wedding,however I was also pregnant.I have a history of dysthymia and ADD.I became depressed at 15 and dropped out of school,but they didnt know I had ADHD at that time.My son is now 10 and has lived with me since he was born until recently.When we moved out of state 3 yrs ago his father filed for custody.My son had an ok relationship with his dad but his dad is cold emotionally and doesnt show love to his son.He now has temp custody and gets 1900 dollars a month in child support!He is trying to show that I have PARENTIFIED my son and when I read about it I know that nothing could be further from the truth!!I am now a physician and have been for10 yrs and have overcome alot of obstacles in life.MY SON NOW HAS SEPARATION ANXIETY AND SITUATIONAL DEPRESSION AND HIS DAD AND THERAPIST TELL HIM THAT HIS MOM CANT TAKE CARE OF HERSELF WITHOUT HIM,BECAUSE I DEPEND ON HIM FOR MY OWN PERSONAL HAPPINESS..My son was going to a christian school with many friends,love and wonderful teachers.He was 2-3 grade levels above his class in math and reading.He is now in a public school 1600 miles away and is getting c and d. My child misses me terribly and calls me daily but his dads therapist is trying to show that I am parentifying my son and it would be emotionally harmful for him to come back and live with me.HOW SHOULD A MOM DEFEND HERSELF FROM SUCH AN ACCUSATION? i WILL NEVER SAY THIS MUCH AGAIN,I PROMISE!

DEAR MOM IN PAIN, I read your msg from a few days ago. Your pain must be overwhelming,I am so sorry.At least you're not far from her .You can APPEAL! Dont EVER give in or give up! Moms should have a charity to help pay for appeals and continue to fight the narc,psychop.,abusers who take our children from their loving mothers

To fight a N, you have to have FACTS. They will lie and you can show proof. Tape every conversation. With your exN and you son. And it will help you to say the right things and not get to emotional. I had a tape recorder that turned on as soon as you picked up the phone. I know it's illegal if neither party know they are being recorded. But as long as you are the other person on the line, it's ok. Unfortunatly, I started recording after he said, "If you don't give me what I want, I'll fight you for the boys." Don't wait!

How did the N get him in the first place?

PARENTIFIED? What do they say this means.

PARENTIFIED is when a parent places a child in a parental role. A boy might be treated like, or referred to as "the man of the house",
A good friend of mine spent most of her childhood & all of her teenage years "keeping" the house (laundry, dishes, even wrote the check for the bills for her mother to sign, etc.) & cared for her alcoholic Mom. She is in her 30's & still struggles with control, anger & other issues that have stemmed from it.

When I was going through some dark times, my D would come to comfort me. One time (& the last time!) I ask her if she would take care of me. She was 5. She looked frightened, I instantly knew why so I followed with "like I do when you're sick? Can you get me a drink & a blanket?" She was relieved & said, "Sure, Mommy".
She knows that it is the parent's job to take care of the child & the thought of actually having to care for me, terrified her & really opened my eyes!!
I got help & therapy. I will NEVER do THAT again!!

Thanks, outsidethebox!!

BUT PLEASE!!!! Say as much as you want. Just knowing that there are others out there who really do understand what you're going through & are up against. Getting it out is good for you & gives others a chance to possibly help you.

Did N get custody because you moved? Was there a formal order prior to the move? Did N give you ANY financial support prior to getting temporary custody?

This is what I think, that's all...
I think you've got a good case. I'm iffy about the recording - I think it will be thrown out & it could (not that you would) be easily fabricated. Most likely it will not be admissible.
This is temporary custody - probably due to jurisdiction because you moved.

1. Document EVERYTHING! Every phone call, everything your son or the N says to you.

2. *****Get copies of all of his school records!!!! Past & present. This could be the clencher. If these show that he was doing well with you & is NOT with his Dad....That is a BIGGY!! Was your son in the christian school before or after the move? Reports from his teachers & friends there will help! Even more if you can get a few to the trial.

3. Your son is 10. Although I think he is too young to be active in the decision of where he wants to be, I do believe that the judge will hear him. My D is 6. She tells everyone (but her Dad of course) that she wants to be with Mommy, but she's too young. The court will not hear her.:(

4. Document EVERYTHING!!!! Yes, everything!!

How much longer until the trial? Do everything that you are supposed to do until then. I know it is hard, but be as perfect as you can be. N can not interfere with your relationship with your son! N has to follow the rules too.

This is what I am finding. My N takes this all the way to court because I won't comply with his demands, he get primary physical for school purposes, all else remains joint & 50/50. I lose time with my D, but N lost his ability to call ALL the shots. He is having a very difficult time with this & is digging a hole for himself by trying to continue to do so. I just write it all down, refuse to engage with him & let him show his true colors.

outsidethebox, Why did you move? Did you HAVE to? If you have a good reason, this could be ok. Perhaps you could offer to pay you son's travel expenses to visit his dad every other Christmas & for a couple weeks in the summer?
If you didn't HAVE to move, would you consider moving back? Just a thought.

:? I hope I didn't upset or offend you with any of my opinions. I'm going on the info that you provided. So please DO say more!!! Maybe someone has that advice that will help it to make sense.

I wish you all the best in the world!! Truly believe in that you are doing the right thing, follow that path with positive intentions & will & any obstacle that you find in your way is meant to be torn down!

Namaste!

MomInPain

MomInPain,

Thank you for your honesty.

I find it interesting that as a mother, this behavior caused you to lose custody of you child. I don't think a man would have lost custody for the same thing.

It's great that you've gone to therapy and can acknowledge that you made a poor choice. I would hope that the court be impressed that you have addressed the issue.

Superhero...If N's lawyer can see what an ass n is he's gonna keep his mouth shut thats for sure......if not the N needs to find another one.....My n had an antique clock collection of which I took pictures of b4 I left.....they didnt help me at all.....I thought they were going to when n was saying he didnt have any collection and thats when I pulled out the pictures...my attorney was really angry when she went into the other room to confront him with his lies.....but she came back and said I would need to get an antique dealer into the house to price them...Well you KNOW n wasnt gonna let that happen.....So it didnt help at all......I wish you all going thru it now better luck.......and yes...the lies comming from an n at this time will be rampent.....Count on it......have a tape recorder with ya at all times.....

Lived,

Oh no. I was just using my story as an example of how placing adult responsibility onto a child can be damaging. Some kids have to do it; like when a father leaves a mother with multiple children, but when the child is placed in the roll of caretaker to the other parent, it removes an element of safety that a child must feel for healthy development.

This was NOT a reason that I didn't receive primary custody of my D6.

WHY? He deemed us both fit. Legal is 50/50 & physical is 50/50 except for the school year.

1. Judge didn't believe that N was abusive or violent. Did however acknowledge that he was controlling & unreasonable.

2. Judge interpreted, "Best Interest Standard #4: Potentiality of maintaining natural family relations" to favor N because he had a fairly large family & they lived in relatively close proximity. Disfavored me because I & my husband have small families & my Mom & niece live 2 hours away. **Although I am in regular contact with N's Mother, step-father & wife. All their phone #'s in my phone.***

3. A last minute, fabricated offer regarding schooling was said to have been offered to me by N & I made a unilateral decision to refuse it & create this entire problem.

4. N just happened to shack-up with & marry (2 months before the trial) a woman with a son my D's age. They put them in the same Daycare, requested that they be placed in the same Kindergarten class & insist that they call one another "brother & sister". N repeated again & again that the kid's had been together for 4 years and that they were SO close! The judge bought on to the 4 years together thing (N & I were together 4 years ago) - It was actually 2 yrs (she was with N for 2 weeks , then me for 2 weeks.) & said that I basically didn't give a crap about that because I was angry.

Angry, huh?