Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 363 Location: Minnesota

Thay noticed it in another post, but thought I would start a new one, since this is as much about alcoholism as N behavior.

Upside down thinking is rampant in my birth family--and it kinda started with my mother and my Nsis's mother in law--you see, my sisters spouse was even more pathological-more like a sociopath--and I think his mother was even more indulgent with him than mine was with her.

For my sister, not only did my mother and her MIL believe that she was an alcoholic because she had "stress" ---so we had to accept her behavior, but that her wrath would be released only if you crossed her and therefore everyone walked on eggshells for years. Classic.

Well I for one know the eggshells were on my shoes long before she became an alcoholic. The person's alcoholism affects the whole family, as they say, but in my Nsis's case, it was her behavior/personality that caused the alcoholism, and my mother's indulgence that caused the N to form before the alcoholism, I think. (I guess I should be glad she came 16 years ahead of me or I would have likely ended up like her)!

To my knowledge, my sister had no "early trauma" that made her that way. She did have asthma as a child and my mother was somewhat protective, from what I hear, but no "non-bonding parent" or traumatic event.

I was made to think from (my) age 12-20 that her alcoholism caused the behavior, not the other way around. (They were either in denial about her other abnormal/pathological behavior before that, (like her trying to kill me twice) or she was even more clever than she appeared). (Alot of it WAS covert and towards me only-I was her supply).

They fooled themselves into thinking that her weird behavior would just be gone when she stopped drinking. That all she needed was treatment. (In all fairness, that was kind of part of the general thinking about alcoholism in society at the time, I think). We'll she was in treatment 5 times over 12 years (every time against her will except the last), and when she stopped, that self absorbed personality was still there.

Then the whole family chalked it up to-"well the alcohol must have caused brain damage. thats why she acts this way."

Finally I said, BULLSH_T!!! She is responsible for her own behavior and she is a BIG FAT BULLY AND JERK!! (to her and to the rest of the family). At first, the rest of the family agreed with me. Then, she started pouring on the gifts and money and the poor sick me stuff again and it was all over. She had them in her grasp again, just like she did with my family since she was 16 or even earlier.

For me, observing this last round for another 15 years was a turning point. (I was living in another location for most of it, but when I moved back--WHAM!!--there was that lying, cheating, manipulative vindictive, self absorbed BIT_H again! I couldnt believe it was really true. At first, I kept "wiping my eyes," thinking--no, this cant be real."

Well it took another 5 years for me to wake up completely, but I just couldn't live that sick, dysfunctional way my family was any more. I couldn't deny myself to "the Queen" anymore. I have enough PTSD for two lifetimes, thanks to that BIT_H and her sociopath ex spouse. [u]

Thanks AGAIN for letting me vent. Hope it helps somebody in some way.
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Once You Have Been Bitten By A Snake, You Are Very Cautious, Even Of A Coiled Rope.

The Dalai Lama

thayilflies · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 488

You can't excuse someone's behaviour because they are alcoholic or NPD or both, born with one arm, raised by monkeys or whatever. Destructive behaviour is destructive behaviour end of story. Despite what you may see in someone (it seems that human nature is to see the best in people) there is no justification for putting up with abusive behaviour. It is irresponsible to do so. In the example of the alcoholic, how are they going to learn to act responsibly if you're reinforcing their drunk behaviour? It is also in the alcoholic's best interests that you tell them to **** off.

Good work Oak for being the sane one! You are right, she is responsible for her own behaviour and you are right to not put up with it!

Kitcat0341 · Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Posts: 15

Alanon has ben my main program of recovery. I started because of my ex, he was dependent on pot....Alanon deals with codependancy, altho that is never mentioned in the liturature. We use the 12 steps of recovery just like the alcoholic in AA.

We refer to the behavior as you discribed as "dry drunk". The person doesn't drink, but they still have all the behaviors of an un-recovered person. We refer to the bad behaviors of ourselves and others as the "isms" of alcoholism. These are the behaviors that are present even if there is no alcohol present.

For me, this didn't explain my family. Why do they have "isms" if alcohol was never a problem? Okay, my uncle is an alcoholic and I know my great-grandfather was an alcoholic. That explains the "isms" on my Dad's side. But my mom's side were a bunch of church-going, self righteous people with no alcoholism. I couldn't explain the "isms" on her side, but they were much worse than my fathers side.

Then, one day I discovered NPD. I've since learned that all people have N-traits. A few N-traits are healthy....makes for a healthy ego. Alot of N-traits causes NPD. I've learned that all addicts and alcoholics have alot of N-traits, but not all NPDs are alcoholics. Maybe....I'm not sure, some addicts and alcoholics do not have NPD...but that seems a bit far fetched, since Selfishness and Self-centeredness are the main traits of NPD and of Alcoholism/Addiction.

I do believe in the power of the 12 steps. I've seen it too many times to not believe it. The 12 steps has worked amazing miracles in my own life. I beleive that an alcoholic (keeping in mind that most alcoholics have NPD) can recover if they hit bottom, admit they are totally powerless, and work the 12step program of recovery in AA.

In AA, they believe that part of the "disease of alcoholism" tells them that there is nothing wrong with them. The disease of alcoholism keeps them in denial. Hmmmm....the same way an N wil never believe that (s)he is the problem??

I think I finally stumbled on to what's wrong in my mom's family. It's NPD.

I've also learned in Alanon, that my life is about ME, it's not about the alcoholic/addict. For my survival I had to learn to detach from the bad behaviors of others. I easily internalize all that they say and do, and I beleive this is because of my personality type. I am an INFP according to the myer-briggs indicator. This is how information is processed and stored in my brain. There are no INFP's in my family of origin. That's why I am the "black sheep". I'm different. I can't go along with their NPD set up, because it will destroy me.

It's taken years for me to finally put this all together in a logical way. I feel like I've spent most of my life in chaos, reeling from the affects of alcoholism/addiction, but not knowing how it applied to my family of origin.

Again, I sooooo beleive in the miracle of the 12 step recovery program. Unfortunatly, it's for those who WANT to recover, not for those who need to recover. It's alot of work, and introspection....not many are willing to work that hard to recover. It's easier to stay the same, especially if all those around are enabling.

Thanks for letting me ramble....Brenda
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Change never comes from fighting what is wrong, it comes from loving what is right.

lemondroppr · Joined: 10 Feb 2007 Posts: 1427

I just wanted to point out that there are other things we can use addictively, so if one only looks for drugs and/or alcohol in a family, one might miss the other things. Also, anything that we use addictively can cover up and medicate the emotional pain that some of us are trying so hard to avoid, push down and deny. Addictions help keep us from dealing with "our stuff". You take away the addiction and watch out! Here comes the emotions.

Now, I don't know if any of this is true for a P or a N and I probably need to read up on it. So, what I'm saying above may not fit all people. The above was my experience and from what I've learned, has been other recovering addicts experiences as well. Maybe a P/N that gets sober but doesn't change their behavior because they don't feel feelings like some of us do.....maybe they are the ones that remain the "dry drunk". I dunno. Just a thought.

oaktree · Joined: 16 Feb 2007 Posts: 363 Location: Minnesota

all very interesting. I am sad that my sister never followed through with staying active in AA, (even though she has stayed sober now for almost 30 years), because it MAY have helped her somehow (and in turn the rest of us). What I do know, is that she exhibited all the traits BEFORE she started drinking or being addicted to ANYTHING. I think thats what "threw" everyone in the family. They thought that if they got her into treatment that she would be okay. Problem is, the personality had already been formed in her early to mid teens. By the time she got her 5th and final bout of treatment, when she finally STARTED AA, (maybe went less than 6 months). she had already decided years before that she was "better" than everyone else in AA. Her denial about her own issues VERY MUCH contributed to her drinking problem, in my opinion, and in the end, those same issues kept her from getting totally well. She was a dry drunk before she ever took a drink.
_________________
Once You Have Been Bitten By A Snake, You Are Very Cautious, Even Of A Coiled Rope.

The Dalai Lama