Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Summer, I'm surprised to read that mediation involves both you and N at the same time. That is a recipe for a confrontation. In U.K. you each see a 'CAFCASS' officer separately. (Cafcass = mediator who reports his findings to the court). I can understand you being overwhelmed in a face to face mediation as the N finds it so easy to tell blatant lies. I can only say the best form of defence is attack, don't be intimidated by N's lies. Have as much evidence as possible to back up your statements and simply tell the truth. That's how my D dealt with the endless court hearings and she won in the end. I know how you must feel, but be as positive as you can. Do you remember I once said that whatever evidence you wish to produce to the court must be entered as evidence at the outset. In one hearing my D had undeniable photographic proof of N's activities but the 'evidence' was disallowed because her lawyer did not state at the outset that it was to be produced! You cannot produce evidence 'out of the blue' in court. Don't forget, this goes for N as well!
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Sailor

livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 942

Good point Bill. I don't know how it is in CA, but here, if you notifiy the mediator or case manager that there is a history of Domestic Violence (or better yet, present some documentation which substantiates prior DV), you can request that you don't meet at the same time.

I didn't know this and I met with the ExN several times. --BTW, he couldn't even treat me with an ounce of respect and dignity during these meetings, which did not work in his favor.

Summer, I know I seem to preach this to everyone all the time, but getting a mediator or case manager or other neutral third party with a therapy background is finally what turned my case around. I wouldn't mess with mediation ever again, because here mediation is non-binding, but in case management, there is a written opinion made which becomes a court order if neither side objects. Using attorneys for your neutral party can possibly allow the N to continue to play all his legal games, depending on the quality of the mediator/case manager. A good therapist should be able to see through the N's games.

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 869

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Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 869

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safeinmyheart · Joined: 09 Oct 2007 Posts: 10 Location: California

Hi Summer-

It sounds like you really have your hands full with your ex-. Mine did the same thing, lying to the court, manufacturing "evidence" against me. Like you, I am your basic everyday mom. Live a very normal life. The court is so overburdened with cases that they just don't get very into depth in each case. It used to amaze me; my ex- could say anything...I mean anything...act like it was fact, and proceed. I ended up defending myself against wild accusations. Since when is it okay to harass someone with lies, I would think? But it happened again and again. And didn't get resolved until ex-N had an atty who talked some sense into him. (He was going to drag me to court over 5$...literally ...5$...(according to him, the "principle of the matter", as if he had actual principles) had it not been for the atty who talked him out of it.) Like most Ns, mine liked a lot of rules, but never thought they applied to him. Also, he was so totally convinced he was right, that he was very convincing to others. Scary.

First off, make sure you have a good atty who practices regularly in your jurisdiction. I had 3 attys. The first was great, a total shark, very unsentimental, very well respected who retired about 2 years into the process. My 2nd atty was from another county (HUGE MISTAKE) who had no relationship with the other attys & judges in my county. So he had no pull. Also, he dragged stuff out as much as possible, and basically drained me of what little $ I had. He was after my $. Period. I fired him after about 2 or 3 years, and got another atty much like the 1st. About the time I got the 3rd atty, my ex- finally got an atty. Nice guy, well-respected, and someone who was able to dissuade him from further court proceedings.

We also got a court-appointed Special Master. She was a godsend. Ironically, he was the one who wanted a special master. I think he thought that it would be a replay of our marriage counseling sessions, which ended up with him basically bashing me on a weekly basis. But it was not like that at all. She is a therapist who resolves disputes between parties, her focus being 1) what is good for the child, and 2) what is a reasonable solution that will work for the parents. Her decisions also had the power of a court order. Some of them were actually filed with the court.

Like you, I was afraid my ex- would snow her with the Mister NiceGuy routine. But she met with us alone from time to time, and she saw us so often...saw us together, so she could see the hostility with her own eyes. Meeting together with the SM is important, otherwise she doesn't get a chance to see the whole picture. He was able to be Mister Nice Guy, I think, when he saw her alone, but my presence really enraged him so much, that she saw the real thing soon enough. Mind you, he attempted the whole wife-bashing thing, but she controlled the meetings. She never let anyone vent for the sake of venting.

She also saw our kids on occasion. Our D-13 moved out of his home (50/50 custody) over numerous disagreements. She was more adult than he was, and very headstrong, and it triggered the control freak in him bigtime. During those months they spoke only a few times, and usually through the SM. He blamed the whole thing on her--our D--and the SM set him straight on whose fault it was and how damaging his behavior was (controlling, tyrannical, non-communication, one very hostile letter to her.) She suggested getting D into a therapist, which we did, and which was very helpful. She also saw our S-13 who struggled with moving and other changes when I remarried. Helped me to deal with the situation properly. (ie not take on S's emotions; let him deal with them himself.) Acted a bit like a therapist to the kids, and helped us as parents to do what was best for the kids.

And being an experienced therapist, she knew what she was looking at when saw us...the Narcissist and his ex-wife with the Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. She was not fooled.

We paid for the sessions, 70$ each ($140 per hour). We originally met once or twice a week, then twice a month, then once a month. Then as needed. It's been about 2 years since we've had to go. My ex- has started to act up recently, and refuses to go to her (our agreement with her expired)...expects me to take him to court to force him to go. So I saw her alone last week, and she suggests I "wean him" off the relationship...I mean, I've been done forever, and he's still trying to pick fights. Communicate only as needed. Come back and see her if need be...if his behavior escalates to harassment. So she is still helping. Really, unlike the court battles, worth every penny.

It's like having a life coach for your dysfunctional family. Someone who is unbiased, and interested in resolutions.

Wish I could answer your questions about mediation. We didn't do mediations. Just 4-way meetings, court dates. Re: COC, doesn't his motion tell his reasons for filing for COC? As I remember, you are supposed to list your "argument/supporting evidence" when you file a motion like that. Go through his motion, and write down concise rebuttals/corrections, so that when you meet with your atty, you have "all your ducks lined up." (Do it while listening to some Sarah Maclachlan or Allison Krause or some music that fills up your soul...don't leave room for any of his propaganda to find its way to your heart.)

Hope this info helps. Everyone's situation is different, but it may help to hear what has worked for others. Take care of yourself xoxoxo

Summer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 869

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safeinmyheart · Joined: 09 Oct 2007 Posts: 10 Location: California

Hi Summer-

I notice livedthroughit also recommends the same thing...a neutral 3rd party with a therapy/psychology background, and the ability to make binding decisions. This is what a Special master is.

If you want to go the special master route, you can petition the court to appoint one. We had a custody evaluation by a 3rd party, and this person suggested it. My ex- was gungho for it, as I stated before, and I had to be convinced. But I agreed to it before the court appointed someone.

I'm not sure is N has to agree to it or not. That is, I honestly don't know if you have to have implicit agreement before the court will appoint someone. If the court will appoint one without his agreement, it may even be that attending the meetings can be a condition of custody. Ask your atty how it works. I only know how it worked for us.

My motivation for doing it was 1) being able to parent my kids. (Ex-N made it difficult for me to sign them up for sports, made home-to-home transition awful, ah, the list is long and distinguished...as they say in Top Gun) and 2) changing our communication (He bombarded me with hostile letters, emails, phone calls). It sounds to me like you would benefit from this route, but it would be good if you could figure out what you would like to gain from such an arrangement. If you petition the court for a special master, they need to know why it is necessary.

Our SM was able to make all kinds of rulings...for example...parents will attend teacher conferences together-no sneaking around to brainwash teachers...parents will not go to each other's home...parents are both allowed to attend child's sport (my N tried to get her to make a ruling to exclude me on his custodial days...even though I was the one who paid for sport, equipment, lessons, and did all the driving to practices and games.) I think the only things she couldn't rule on were 1) changing custody arrangement and 2) financial stuff.

I always hated when things happened on the weekend, and I couldn't resolve them...The feeling of helplessness and fear of the unknown is the worst, isn't it? Maybe you can sit down with a pad of paper or your computer, and make a list of what you need to do...1) call atty 2) give rebuttal list to atty 3) copy house appraisal 4) etc.. Do what you can, and then put the list away until Monday.

Have a good Sunday night. Try to do something nice for yourself. Good movie. Chocolate is always good Laughing

xoxoxo

safeinmyheart · Joined: 09 Oct 2007 Posts: 10 Location: California

I forgot, I also wanted to say...It is hard to know what to say to your kids when their other parent (who is more than willing to trash you) has some mental disorder. You don't want to trash him in turn, and yet, you feel the need to defend yourself.

I tried to let my actions speak for my my character. Be there for my kids, tell them often how much I love them, am proud of them, basically make our home a safe place with lots of mutual respect. I treated them as grown up as I could, and amazingly, they responded by behaving as maturely as they could.

And as far as their dad went, I would (when they would complain about his behavior) tell them when I thought he was right, and when I thought he was wrong. I really tried to be objective. He was still their dad even if he was a troubled guy. When they got old enough to understand, I told them....adults behave this way, and children behave like this. Your dad isn't doing the adult thing because he just doesn't know any better. I didn't call him names. I told them that I thought his emotional development was arrested sometime in childhood because of how his parents treated him, and that even if he was incapable of acting like an adult, I expected them to rise above it when possible and treat him the way they wished to be treated. It wouldn't change him, but they could be proud of how they handled themselves.

There have been numerous conflicts, and we reiterate the child's options:
1) You can stay in dad's home and toe the line
2) You can stay in dad's home and engage him when there is disagreement
3) You can leave dad's home
All these options have some negative consequences; you need to decide what works for you, and what you can live with.

My kids are 20 and 17 now, and are both nice people, responsible, and very grown up. I feel like they were robbed of some of their childhood, they had to grow up way too early, but dad continually threw them in the middle of our conflicts. I felt like all I could do was try to minimize the damage.

Remember, kids are really smart. They see way more than you think. Take the high road wherever possible. You'll be glad you did.

xoxoxo

livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 942

Summer,

What you can do is find out if California law allows for Special Masters -- probably your best bet, we don't have them here. If not , try for a Case Manager. Case managers here can be attorneys, therapists, even police officers. You could request a therapist I'm pretty sure.

livedthroughit · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 942

Okay, now that I see Safe is posting in California.

I would request a Special Master.

safeinmyheart · Joined: 09 Oct 2007 Posts: 10 Location: California

Found this link on-line. It is pretty informative about what special masters are/can do. The article says that both parents must agree to the use of SM per a 1997 law. Don't know if this is still true. Again, ask your atty.

http://www.divorcemag.com/articles/Child_Custody/special_masters.html

safeinmyheart · Joined: 09 Oct 2007 Posts: 10 Location: California

Found this link on-line. It is pretty informative about what special masters are/can do. The article says that both parents must agree to the use of SM per a 1997 law. Don't know if this is still true. Again, ask your atty.

http://www.divorcemag.com/articles/Child_Custody/special_masters.html

Shadey Lady · Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 150

Summer,

Using a special master sounds as though it might really be helpful in your situation. I would sure talk to your attorney about it.

I hope you have a calmer night.

Peace, Shadey Lady

Sailor2bill · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 204

Summer, I've just sent a posting into cyberspace (again). I basically said that a CAFCASS officer in U.K. compares with s Special Master in U.S. (not like a mediator as I first said). In my D's case the Cafcass officer worked wonders, he never saw N and my D together, he saw each child separately then reported to the court. N did his damndest to alienate the boys (he was the original Disney Dad - no maintenance but spoil the kids rotten). Cafcass saw right through N. So, if you can possibly arrange it as everyone else here is saying, a Special Master could well be the answer you need. If they are like U.K. equivalent, they carry enormous power with courts wher children are concerned.
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withall1sheart · Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 42

Summer,

Since you and the ex have 50/50 isn't there an Established Custodial Environment with both you and the ex? We have this legal term in my state I am not sure in your state. The ex would have the burden to provide that there has been a Change of Circumstances not just any change. My state also has this legal burden that the person petitioning for custody would have to provide. If the petitioner is able to prove a Change of Circumstances exists then the Court addresses the Child's Best Interest Factors (11 factors) with an evidentary hearing. Again, these legal burdens are in my state. A child simply expressing they wish to live with the other parent is not sufficient in my state. You should receive a copy of his motion/petition for custody and why he is asking for custody and be able to response to his motion/petition. Good Luck.
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With All One's Heart