Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Hi Sagitta. Thanks so much. What is jading?

edited for safety
Thanks for your support.

shell

Hi Shell

I thought of a couple of things which cd help (only small ones, I'm afraid) I do understand your fear of posting too much and your fear of what she might do next even tho my situation is nowhere as bad as yours. My NF has certainly tried to persuade others I'm mentally ill and this is someone who lives a long way away. I'm not sure if I cn PM you in future if that's possible.

Anyway JADE stands for justifying, arguing, defending and explaining. It's what we're all tempted to do when confronted with Ps or Ns behaviour and proxies or stooges who stand up for them, sometimes close friends or relatives who take their side and come and bother you with how NM or whoever is so upset because she loves you and ur not talking 2her etc. However JADEing is a thoroughly bad thing to do because your wasting your energy trying to explain to people who aren't going to listen or who've bought the P/N's story hook, line and sinker. There are other things you cn do instead like say nothing, or pretend ur busy etc - have a look on the site there should be some good advice out there.

Anyway the tips quickly are. Start a log - u need one for NM, and one for hospital. Just a little diary where u note down everything that goes amiss - and tell no one. It's useful to produce as evidence of a later date.

The other is try and take a friend with you next time and every time you visit the hospital if that's at all possible. I have 2 rush off now but hopefully will start a new thread later as there may be other newbies who haven't heard of JADE either. And if i think of anything else I'll let you know. Have a good day 2day.

creepiest thing?

Mother was so cross that my good night kisses were moist she wanted to teach me a lesson. So she lay down on her bed and told me to lay down next to her.

I knew there was something horrible ahead but did what she wanted and lay down next to her because it would be so much worse if I refused. When I was lying on the bed she rolled over me and gave me the most revolting, hideous, horrible tongue kiss. Words cannot describe how disgusting it was. I nearly puked - I was about 7 at the time.

She said "let that be a lesson to you , that is what a wet kiss is".

Yuk, it makes my stomach turn just remembering it.

brighteyes wrote:I think these stories are all so sad.

I remembered some more last night.

I was scared of thunder and lightening from a young age. I remember NM pushing me out in the garden when there was a storm and locking the door. My Brother and Nsis was watching and laughing. I didn't know where to go there was a metal pole in the garden and I didn't want to go near it, there was a shed at the bottom of the garden, but it was full of metal things, there was trees. In the end, I curled up in a ball and cried in the middle of the grass.
I am still scared of it.

I think I told you about when my dad got me by the throat and had his other fist ready to punch me in the face. NM, Brother and Nsis was watching at the door and egging him on.

I remember her slapping me across the face as an aunt told me that Nsisters wasn't my actual sisters, they were step as she had been married before. I think I was about 12 at the time and I asked her. She lined us all up and asked me again to repeat what I had said, she then slapped me until I told her that they were my actual sisters.

One day, I can't remember what for now, she slapped me in the face just before school. I remember as it was against the front door and I thought someone could see. I then walked to school in tears and a red mark across my face.

I remember her taking things that I had saved up for from working. She would come into my room because I didn't do something she said, and just took everything out. She gave them to her friends.

I remember that I did a charity bungee jump when I was 16. I did the first one, then she paid for a second one. I didn't jump the second one, as she kept saying that the elastic could break as it was wet.
I got down, and she slagged me off the whole way home.

I am sure there are loads more in this messed up head of mine!

sounds like you pulled a particularly nasty one out of the deck. I hope you can find some healing somewhere because not too many can come back after those sort of horrors.

KL wrote:Yeah, what is it with those N's and pet killing?
The first pet my NM killed was my new black kitten. She made sure I knew it was her (probably to get more control over me).
I was either 4 or 5 years old.
She was my teacher at school back then, and the class pet bunny died around the same time. All the children were crying and she comforted them and held them while they cried.
As opposed to how cruel she had been to my tears (spanked me rotten) when she killed kitty.

I think that's when my hatred of her began. It grew more as the years went on. To the point of me threatening to kill her if she ever hurt another animal of mine again. They magically survived after that...PLUS she stopped hitting me and went covert.

Now that I think about it.....maybe SHE killed the class rabbit too? Never crossed my mind. Bet she did it. Bitch!!! Then she had a chance to show me how little I mattered by hugging every child except me, her own daughter.

Why on earth do those Nparents think we'll have anything to do with them when we are grown? After stunts like that? Idiots !!

Oh, it gets better. They get really offended if you don't see them, and support their little charade of 'happy families".

After a childhood of constant physical and emotional abuse by my mother she was 'mightily offended' when as an adult, I couldn't bring myself to get closer to her than 15 feet much less kiss her offered cheek.

sagitta wrote:Hi Shell

I thought of a couple of things which cd help (only small ones, I'm afraid) I do understand your fear of posting too much and your fear of what she might do next even tho my situation is nowhere as bad as yours. My NF has certainly tried to persuade others I'm mentally ill and this is someone who lives a long way away. I'm not sure if I cn PM you in future if that's possible.

Anyway JADE stands for justifying, arguing, defending and explaining. It's what we're all tempted to do when confronted with Ps or Ns behaviour and proxies or stooges who stand up for them, sometimes close friends or relatives who take their side and come and bother you with how NM or whoever is so upset because she loves you and ur not talking 2her etc. However JADEing is a thoroughly bad thing to do because your wasting your energy trying to explain to people who aren't going to listen or who've bought the P/N's story hook, line and sinker. There are other things you cn do instead like say nothing, or pretend ur busy etc - have a look on the site there should be some good advice out there.

Anyway the tips quickly are. Start a log - u need one for NM, and one for hospital. Just a little diary where u note down everything that goes amiss - and tell no one. It's useful to produce as evidence of a later date.

The other is try and take a friend with you next time and every time you visit the hospital if that's at all possible. I have 2 rush off now but hopefully will start a new thread later as there may be other newbies who haven't heard of JADE either. And if i think of anything else I'll let you know. Have a good day 2day.

Hi Sagitta. Thanks so much for the tips and explanation. I am very new to all this and don't know any of the jargon. thanks for explaining Jade. yup, that about covers my frantic efforts to salvage what's left of my relationships with other people PM has turned on me. I can't believe they believed her, but apparently, she is quite convincing. eidted for safety

thanks for the tips, I am trying to document everything, and edited for safety
What is PM? Is that like instant message?

Thank you.

Shell

Lior wrote:

brighteyes wrote:I wish I could find something she was really scared of and just stand there laughing at her....

Being alone. That's the one thing they're terrified of and the one thing they ultimately end up as.

yeah that's right. My mother is living proof of that. She said she had no friends because her mother stole them from her, then she had no friends because her husband was such a mean bore. Now those two people died over 10 years ago - guess what, still no friends but this time she has nobody to blame it on.

She did say that she felt invisible to her parents as a child. She has always been really really angry at the world and for no apparent reason.

Another strange thing is that whenever someone else it paying for her - its only ever top shelf stuff, and here I'm talking cars (the european two door sports variety), trips overseas (always first class), dinners (best joint in town and always the most expensive item on the menu), properties - you name it. But now that she is old and her meal tickets have died she is paying for herself and she is so mean with money its incredible. She needs a new car, well forget the 2 door European sports cars her mama bought her, now she drives a 3rd or 4th hand wreck. And believe me she could well afford to buy herself several high end cars and not make a dent in her bank account. Same with travelling, she would make backpacker students blush with extravagence.

Why I don't know.

Hi Shell I'm starting a new thread which hopefully u might like 2 look at otherwise it's going 2 get a little off topic here.

Hi Shell, what a nasty b**** the woman is, but u sound as if ur getting a little stronger and growing in confidence. OK next time ur mother turns up uninvited ant hospital or anywhere the coversation cd go loudly like this.

you: Very loudly and confidently: Right mother, hat are you doing here?

M: probably something about wanting 2 c how u r etc? Altho she might be taken aback in front of all the people in thewaiting room.

you. Well I'm fine, so there's no reason for you 2 be here. You're not needed here so there's no reason 4 u 2 stay is there?
(you hv 2 really nail it on the head in front of all those people her presence is wanted)

got 2 go

OK sorry 2 break off there, hopefylly I'll finish this time!

To continue then. Be prepared for NM 2 react in several different ways. She may cry.

You loudly: No mother this isn't going 2 work. You can't turn on the taps every time u don't get exactly what u want. So it wd be best if u calmed urself and left now wouldn't it. And then u tut tut fold ur arms look fed up - yes everyone will probably be looking aghast but u r taking control of the situation and u need 2, so don't let anyone make u feel bad. If anyone comments, WHOEVER they are even one of the nurses or Dr's then tell them it's none of their business it's between me and my mother. Then if they take over in a sort of way then they've taken the problem off ur hands and u cn say right this is nothing 2do with me then and u cn even say u need 2 take a break right now.

If she stays there crying well then u cn ask her loudly, Right what is it mother, what's all this fuss ubout? I told u I didn't want u to come anymore - and it's only because u upset urself like this isn't it? That may actually get some sympathetic looks from people. Again u cn reiterate this 2 any nurses which show up. I think if she hs the sort of audience she doenst want she may actually leave at this point. You cd even put YOUR arm around HER and firmly but gently escort her off the building. If she refuses 2 budge or pushes u away. Then loudly - well, I've tried. There nothing more I cn do Mother, the best thing is for u to leave. And then u cn cross ur arms look generally embarrased and fed up. Twiddle embarassedly with ur watch strap form time to time etc.

Or she may pretent 2 hv a heart attack fainting fit then and there. Again take over loudly call 4 a nurse. This time u cn reiterate in front of whoever it's best she doesn't turn up again if she's going 2 be ill. She's hd these dizzy spells - whatever before - twice this wk - yes play her trick of telling lies 2 Dr's straight back on her. If she denies it then loudly Mother there's no need 2 be embarrased about it - everyone gets ill don't they. And maybe u need 2 get this checked out - perhaps now while ur in the hospital - And reiterate again why she's not 2 tire herself out like this again.

Or as it seems she really doesn't respect boundaries anyway she may make a beeling straight for you 2 give u a hug and calm her down for talking silly nonsense.

You - loudly Now stay where u r mother I'm not having all this nonsense again. U've caused 2 much trouble already - U don't hv 2 describe the trouble she's caused just state she's caused it.

Push ur hand out in front of her face. It''s non violent but she won't gat past it and reiterate No! Now I told u - back off.

She may fall and *hurt" herself in front of everyone. Go back to the loudly what's the matter mother routine and ask her shall I call for a nurse, loudly! Reiterate I asked u 2 stay away from me didn't I? I did warn u didn't I? People may be looking shocked but as u hv been loud will hv been in no doubt that she walked in2 u even if of her choice even if she did get hurt.

If she manages to get past all that and sit next 2 u then pinch her hard. I know this sounds really shocking but if u get up and walk 2 another chair she'll probably follow u and she's won. She's not going 2 respect ur boundaries I mean she thinks nothing of killing animals 4 heaven's sake. So let her no that any attempt 2 try physical contact with u is going 2b painful. Again people will probably look shocked but u don['t hv 2 explain anything and up 2 this point everyone will hv been aware that u've told her very clearly to stay away from u. That's just some thoughts - others may hv more and work out what's best 4 u and practise these scenarios in ur head so u r more prepared when stuff happens. I think the main thing is 2 practise being bigger and louder than her first of all. U take charge of the conversation, butt in when she's about 2 speak especially if u cn talk about things she wd find embarrasing (without actually accusing her of anything) go on loudly over her head as if what she hs 2 say is of no interest 2 u whatever - no matter what she comes out with.

With the hospital themselves, I guess u may be a polite sort of person. And it's normal 2b around Drs and nurses. I think u may need 2 practise being a bit more brusque and matter of fact in ur manner again taking charge of the situation. I think u will need 2do this 2 turn this around 4 u. I know if ur poorly being on the ball like this is hard but I think it will be worth it 4 u. U don't hv 2 explain anything 2 them and u cn ask the questions and demand the answers from now on. And I think it may be in ur interests to demand an apology 4 the pill taking incident and demand 2 know how this situation arose bla bla and threaten legal action if it's not resolved 2 ur satisfaction. You cn also let them know in the strongest terms that whilst ur mother accompanied u initially this relationship hs now broken donw.and she is not 2b allowed access to ur appointmants and certainly not ur personal notes or party 2 any discussions with Drs about u and if ur wishes are not respected legal action again- I think in US u can always threaten to go somewhere else?

Hi Sagitta.

thanks for all these great tips. Sounds like you know a thing or two about the tricks these freaks have in their bags. I know she won't cry--I am not actually sure if she can cry--it's bizarre--she never ever cries, not even at funerals. But the other things you suggested are definitely in her capability. she usually goes on the offensive, barging into things, acting as if she's welcome, needed, and of course, any problem I have with her being around is because I'm supposedly mental. But I have to turn things around, you are right. I like the idea of bringing up things that will embarrass her. There are so many things she's done. Maybe that is the way to go. If I'm constantly showing her to be someone other than the "loving mother" she plays, perhaps it'll ruin her fun.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write all this up for me.

I will definitely check out yor other threads.

Healing to you.

Shell

Hey that's fine, glad ur feeling better about stuff now. Yes I hv definitely hd some experiences with F and one or 2 others - altho nothing as bad as urs. and like u I really worry about putting 2 much on the forum even tho none of my immediate family use a computer and don't hv any access 2 mine. And doen't worry if u slip up or she sneaks something in - trust me there will always be something up her sleeve for a little while yet. Just take one day at a time, u cn make it clear ur onoy going 2 deal with one thing at a time and if she does get something past u. Just chalk it up 2 experience and start aftresh the next day. As long as ur consitent it will pay off.

Normally people do at least have alittle time and space 2 practice the boundary setting stuff a bit first and work it out but unfortunataly ur situ means u hv 2 act at once so it'll be quite a steep learning curve, but we r all hre 4 u at any time. One thing u cn do is 2 get a teddy and practise on it like it's real - yes speak out loud and everything - I know that's going 2 sound so strange. You know best what she's like so actually devote say an hour or so avery day 2 practise a differnt scenario or two and then make sure u spend another hour doing something u like and having u time.

Also I don't know how she stole ur money - I think u mentioned that one time but really don't put anything past her. Think of the worst that can happen - I don't mean 2 scare u but I think u may feel better once ur on2 it. Forewarned is always forearmed. Think about ur own personal security (as opposed 2 safety here) Think about issues like identity theft, fraud, impersonation. If she knows ur date of birth and stuff then she cd easily impersonate u. So where needed set up things like private passwords. Does she hv a key 2 ur home or know someone who does? Don't give her the chance 2 wheedle her way in. Change the locks now. Get a new cellphone number if need be. Safeguard ur signature. If u need 2 leave a spare key with anyone then it's only on the strict understaning that they take instructions from no one else but u. If u hv any doubts then don't do it at all. I wd actually hv a stiff word with hosp on phone before next appt to demand things r different (make sure it's backed up in a letter - it's easier 2 put ur point in a cool and succinct way without getting flusterd in a letter) and it might be wise 2 demand 2c ur notes just in case on or 2 "signatures" haven't slipped in anywhere (Although I wouldn't mention this is why u want 2c them).

And u cn generally let it be known that ur cutting ur mother completely out of ur life and if anyone argues with u just cut them dead but as long as ur looking confident and proactive about everything ur doing then that will look positive 4 u. - there are pros and cons 2 whether u tell her or not. She may see it as a challenge 2 react 2 but then again she may avoid getting the message unless it's in black and white - and it only needs 2b simple if u do - no explanations why - just stay away from now on Mother. I certainly did hv some problems with someone getting round all my friends once. I hd 2 make new ones out of the area and that really helped. And on the quiet I think talking 2 a counsellor or therapist might help - u may gain insight and strategies and also it's backup 4 u. I know this all sounds a lot 2 take in right now. Just remember one day at a time - ur doing really great already.

Shellshockella,

Glad to hear you don't actually live with you NM, although it must be difficult to live near by.... I'm shocked how the hospital is controlling your treatment instead of working with you...I'm sure those meds have unpleasant side effects...It really should be up to the individual to decide what they want to put their body through...but sounds like you are getting around it with being able to decrease the meds, under the radar.

"I'm so sorry about your sister. Oxy is one step away from heroine, and there are some other prescription drugs that are even worse"

My NM was addicted to heroin when I was 2 years old...I don't know how long she was on it for? I'm guessing at least a year or two...My father said that she started using heroin after they divorced and she used to take me to score her drugs when I was 2 and 3 years old.. She contracted Hep C from doing heroin...My grandparents took care of both of us when NM got sick from Hep C...My NM's Hep C virus got bad again about 2 years ago...I went and stayed with her for about 45 days...taking care of her... She threw it all in my face afterwards and it wasn't good enough...she just wanted me to fork over thousands of dollars to her...even though at the time I took off almost 2 months or work....providing all food, had a maid clean, went to her Dr.s appointments...saved her butt when she almost died one night when her blood pressure fell very low cause she was mixing her Hep C drugs, (which are like Chemo), with oxy, sleeping pills and anxiety meds.. My NM has a long history of drug abuse from at least age 18 but maybe even before. I've heard that oxy is called " hillbilly heroin" and is actually worse because it is synthetic....I'm actually surprised every day I wake up that I don't get a call from someone saying NM od'ed. My sister has the same fear for NM....and has likened her to the way Anna Nichole Smith was before she died of drug over-dose...

Your question about my sister..... The good thing is I don't think my sister is addicted to pills...I think her drug of choice is alcohol...and that still concerns me...I know my sister would think that any help I was offering her was out of judgement for her and she would be resistant to it... I don't think my sister thinks that she has a problem with alcohol...

As far as how my NM's relationship is with sister:....I love my sister but NM has caused my sister to be sensitive and competitive with me, when she doesn't need to be....NM and my sister get along ok...but it's a weird relationship....my sister has anger issues with NM which are obvious...for instance when I spoke to my H the other day about how my sister would react to the news that I recently started calling NM by her first name....this is how we thought the scenario would go:

NM- Nm calls my sister and says "Whats up with your sister! She is calling me by my first name now! What's her problem?
Sister- "well mom, maybe she is calling you by your first name cause you were acting like a bitch. What did you do to piss off Lynn?
NM- " I didn't do anything!" Your sister is crazy, and I hope you don't start acting like her now.
Sister- " Whatever mom. Last time I talked to Lynn she sounded fine... Get a grip... I got to go to work. call me later"
NM- "after work can you and your boyfriend X stop by the house and help me fix my computer printer. It's not working again..
Sister- 'I will try but it's Friday night mom...I'm suppose to meet some of my friends after work for a drink."
NM- " Ok, whatever...You can never make time to come over anymore...don't drink to much it will make you fat..
Sister- Are you done mom? I have to go to work now.
NM- ok, love you. have a good day at work.
Sister- love you too mom...bye


Sad, but I've heard conversations between them like this....So, basicly my sister is aware of NM's behavior... but thinks I should deal with it the way my sister does...My sister thinks going NC is too drastic and we should be a family, even if it is the way it is......

My dad would bite me constantly until I made him stop when I was about 11 years old. Just to confirm that the biting stuff wasn't normal I told a friend at school and judging by her deer-in-the-headlight speechless response, yup, not normal.

My mom tried to tell me about the oral sex she's given to my dad. I made her stop about 15 seconds into the talk. She was so surprised that I didn't want to listen since I dutifully listen to all her endless me-me-me talks.

But I think the creepiest thing they ever did was tried for 30 years to make my sister and I hate eachother. Despite all I've learned about NPD, I still can't fathom why they would want this. Yes I know about gatekeeping and isolating, but still can't understand it, which now that I write this I guess it's a good thing.

sagitta wrote:Hey that's fine, glad ur feeling better about stuff now. Yes I hv definitely hd some experiences with F and one or 2 others - altho nothing as bad as urs. and like u I really worry about putting 2 much on the forum even tho none of my immediate family use a computer and don't hv any access 2 mine. And doen't worry if u slip up or she sneaks something in - trust me there will always be something up her sleeve for a little while yet. Just take one day at a time, u cn make it clear ur onoy going 2 deal with one thing at a time and if she does get something past u. Just chalk it up 2 experience and start aftresh the next day. As long as ur consitent it will pay off.

Normally people do at least have alittle time and space 2 practice the boundary setting stuff a bit first and work it out but unfortunataly ur situ means u hv 2 act at once so it'll be quite a steep learning curve, but we r all hre 4 u at any time. One thing u cn do is 2 get a teddy and practise on it like it's real - yes speak out loud and everything - I know that's going 2 sound so strange. You know best what she's like so actually devote say an hour or so avery day 2 practise a differnt scenario or two and then make sure u spend another hour doing something u like and having u time.

Also I don't know how she stole ur money - I think u mentioned that one time but really don't put anything past her. Think of the worst that can happen - I don't mean 2 scare u but I think u may feel better once ur on2 it. Forewarned is always forearmed. Think about ur own personal security (as opposed 2 safety here) Think about issues like identity theft, fraud, impersonation. If she knows ur date of birth and stuff then she cd easily impersonate u. So where needed set up things like private passwords. Does she hv a key 2 ur home or know someone who does? Don't give her the chance 2 wheedle her way in. Change the locks now. Get a new cellphone number if need be. Safeguard ur signature. If u need 2 leave a spare key with anyone then it's only on the strict understaning that they take instructions from no one else but u. If u hv any doubts then don't do it at all. I wd actually hv a stiff word with hosp on phone before next appt to demand things r different (make sure it's backed up in a letter - it's easier 2 put ur point in a cool and succinct way without getting flusterd in a letter) and it might be wise 2 demand 2c ur notes just in case on or 2 "signatures" haven't slipped in anywhere (Although I wouldn't mention this is why u want 2c them).

And u cn generally let it be known that ur cutting ur mother completely out of ur life and if anyone argues with u just cut them dead but as long as ur looking confident and proactive about everything ur doing then that will look positive 4 u. - there are pros and cons 2 whether u tell her or not. She may see it as a challenge 2 react 2 but then again she may avoid getting the message unless it's in black and white - and it only needs 2b simple if u do - no explanations why - just stay away from now on Mother. I certainly did hv some problems with someone getting round all my friends once. I hd 2 make new ones out of the area and that really helped. And on the quiet I think talking 2 a counsellor or therapist might help - u may gain insight and strategies and also it's backup 4 u. I know this all sounds a lot 2 take in right now. Just remember one day at a time - ur doing really great already.

Hi Sag. thanks so much for all the great advise. edited for safety

lynn1234 wrote:Shellshockella,

Glad to hear you don't actually live with you NM, although it must be difficult to live near by.... I'm shocked how the hospital is controlling your treatment instead of working with you...I'm sure those meds have unpleasant side effects...It really should be up to the individual to decide what they want to put their body through...but sounds like you are getting around it with being able to decrease the meds, under the radar.

"I'm so sorry about your sister. Oxy is one step away from heroine, and there are some other prescription drugs that are even worse"

My NM was addicted to heroin when I was 2 years old...I don't know how long she was on it for? I'm guessing at least a year or two...My father said that she started using heroin after they divorced and she used to take me to score her drugs when I was 2 and 3 years old.. She contracted Hep C from doing heroin...My grandparents took care of both of us when NM got sick from Hep C...My NM's Hep C virus got bad again about 2 years ago...I went and stayed with her for about 45 days...taking care of her... She threw it all in my face afterwards and it wasn't good enough...she just wanted me to fork over thousands of dollars to her...even though at the time I took off almost 2 months or work....providing all food, had a maid clean, went to her Dr.s appointments...saved her butt when she almost died one night when her blood pressure fell very low cause she was mixing her Hep C drugs, (which are like Chemo), with oxy, sleeping pills and anxiety meds.. My NM has a long history of drug abuse from at least age 18 but maybe even before. I've heard that oxy is called " hillbilly heroin" and is actually worse because it is synthetic....I'm actually surprised every day I wake up that I don't get a call from someone saying NM od'ed. My sister has the same fear for NM....and has likened her to the way Anna Nichole Smith was before she died of drug over-dose...

Your question about my sister..... The good thing is I don't think my sister is addicted to pills...I think her drug of choice is alcohol...and that still concerns me...I know my sister would think that any help I was offering her was out of judgement for her and she would be resistant to it... I don't think my sister thinks that she has a problem with alcohol...

As far as how my NM's relationship is with sister:....I love my sister but NM has caused my sister to be sensitive and competitive with me, when she doesn't need to be....NM and my sister get along ok...but it's a weird relationship....my sister has anger issues with NM which are obvious...for instance when I spoke to my H the other day about how my sister would react to the news that I recently started calling NM by her first name....this is how we thought the scenario would go:

NM- Nm calls my sister and says "Whats up with your sister! She is calling me by my first name now! What's her problem?
Sister- "well mom, maybe she is calling you by your first name cause you were acting like a bitch. What did you do to piss off Lynn?
NM- " I didn't do anything!" Your sister is crazy, and I hope you don't start acting like her now.
Sister- " Whatever mom. Last time I talked to Lynn she sounded fine... Get a grip... I got to go to work. call me later"
NM- "after work can you and your boyfriend X stop by the house and help me fix my computer printer. It's not working again..
Sister- 'I will try but it's Friday night mom...I'm suppose to meet some of my friends after work for a drink."
NM- " Ok, whatever...You can never make time to come over anymore...don't drink to much it will make you fat..
Sister- Are you done mom? I have to go to work now.
NM- ok, love you. have a good day at work.
Sister- love you too mom...bye


Sad, but I've heard conversations between them like this....So, basicly my sister is aware of NM's behavior... but thinks I should deal with it the way my sister does...My sister thinks going NC is too drastic and we should be a family, even if it is the way it is......

Youch Lynn! I'm so sorry she treated you that way--and after everything you did for her!!! These freaks are just beyond comprehension. It's a miracle you turned out so well with these selfish losers raising you! I am so sorry.

Sounds like your sister is basically where I was the past few years. edited for safety


I think there might be hope for your sister. She doesn't sound N, just screwed up, from the little you've said. Was she the GC? Sounds like she's way more bonded with your mother. I was the scapegoat in my family, so in a way, I think it's easiest for me to see what PM is, while my siblings might not ever see it, especially GC. That doesn't mean she doesn't hurt them too though--she just hurts them in a different way. With your sister, it seems she wants the sis to go down the same road she has. Maybe it's a good thing you weren't favored--you might have gotten drug samples too.

Alcohol can be every bit as bad as hard drugs in the wrong hands. And alcoholics tend to have cross-addictions with certain other drugs. Alcohol, heroine, anti-anxiety meds, and painkillers all have a lot in common in the way they effect the brain chemistry. For people who become addicted, sometimes the substances can be somewhat interchangeable, for instance, when they cant' find their drug of choice, or when their drug of choice stops doing the job because they're too tolerant. If alcohol is the one she's into, she may convince herself that taking a sedative is more legit than getting drunk, but it's really just hitting those same chemical receptors and perpetuating the addiction, deepening the addiction in fact. Have you thought about AA and Al-Anon? They really do help. You in particular might really benefit from the support you get at Al-Anon (which is for the family of alcoholics). Even if your sister isn't ready to quit, you might get some ideas there about how to reach out to her, or how to cope with your mother's heroin history. I know a lot of people who've 12-stepped their way out of booze and drugs, and very few who sobered up with other methods. And I know a lot of folks who swear by Al-Anon.

edited for safety

Hi Shell, re the bank stuff unless u actually gave her things like a password or PIN number then it's not as if u just let her walk in and take stuff. Is it something which happened recently? If so there still might be some stuff u cd do and maybe the bank clerk's attitude may hv hd more 2do with them not wanting evade any responsibility 4 their mistake and actually hv 2 do anything rather than it all being ur fault.

Even if u can't get the money back it's not 2 late and I wd do this rather than find urself mysteriously overdrawn. Start fresh from 2day and insist on a password that only u know. This will make things secure 4 u in the future at least. Or close down that account and start a new one with security already in place if they're still being crappy with u. There may be a couple more things that u cn do as well. If it wasn't 2 long ago u cn raise ur concerns about how u were dismissed by the bank clerk - sometimes it's easier on phone than in person. If a lot hs gone missing then grill them about how this happened. Demand answers. Again, make this official and write 2 them. This again will give u some backup 4 ur general situ with her. What details exactly did u give her? Ur name, date of birth, address? Well, that wd hardly be your fault would it? And even if u did do something daft like give out ur PIN then u cn still start again 2 make sure ur secure in the future and don't let them make u feel bad about that. And it may even be possible 2 take ur mother 2 court 2 get that money back but I do think that will be very hard 2 do with everything ur going thru right now.

I think the worst of ur problems stem from the fact u actually live there. I do hv milder experiences of this sort of thing and I know how bloody hard it is 2 shake off. I'm sorry there's so much u need 2 think about. One thing u might do is join a wimmins group - like a feminist lesbian sort of thing. (U don't hv 2 be a lesbian) U might find one or 2 buddies there - the "sisterhood" can be wonderfully warm and supportive and understand issues 2do with oppression even from other women - and most of them will understand perfectly if u want 2 use a different name so PM doesn't make inroads there. I really hope the chemo goes well 4 u tho. U do sound in a stronger position from the way u write which is really good 2 c

shellshockella wrote:

lynn1234 wrote:Shellshockella,

I knew she was harming me at that point, but I thougth she was doing the best she could, and that her screwups were all accidental. I thought she loved me, and that we could work things out. It came as a massive shock to realize that she didn't love me at all-

I've recently (well like a year ago-that is "recently" when you are very LC with someone)heard those exact same words from by brother. "They've done the best that they can". Like that's supposed to just excuse everything about our parents. Yeah, they do the best they can--for themselves.
I can see that you are far ahead of my brother in terms of understanding. You realize the painful truth that she doesn't love--she can't! My middle aged brother still naively lives under the illusion that NM "loves" him, and that fantasy is what keeps him tied to her.

I think you'll do fine once you get the poison out of your life. It's painful at first to not have "family"-but that pain went away fast for me. The peace and freedom is divine. I've built up a support system of friends that are more like family to me.

sagitta wrote:Hi Shell, re the bank stuff unless u actually gave her things like a password or PIN number then it's not as if u just let her walk in and take stuff. Is it something which happened recently? If so there still might be some stuff u cd do and maybe the bank clerk's attitude may hv hd more 2do with them not wanting evade any responsibility 4 their mistake and actually hv 2 do anything rather than it all being ur fault.

Even if u can't get the money back it's not 2 late and I wd do this rather than find urself mysteriously overdrawn. Start fresh from 2day and insist on a password that only u know. This will make things secure 4 u in the future at least. Or close down that account and start a new one with security already in place if they're still being crappy with u. There may be a couple more things that u cn do as well. If it wasn't 2 long ago u cn raise ur concerns about how u were dismissed by the bank clerk - sometimes it's easier on phone than in person. If a lot hs gone missing then grill them about how this happened. Demand answers. Again, make this official and write 2 them. This again will give u some backup 4 ur general situ with her. What details exactly did u give her? Ur name, date of birth, address? Well, that wd hardly be your fault would it? And even if u did do something daft like give out ur PIN then u cn still start again 2 make sure ur secure in the future and don't let them make u feel bad about that. And it may even be possible 2 take ur mother 2 court 2 get that money back but I do think that will be very hard 2 do with everything ur going thru right now.

I think the worst of ur problems stem from the fact u actually live there. I do hv milder experiences of this sort of thing and I know how bloody hard it is 2 shake off. I'm sorry there's so much u need 2 think about. One thing u might do is join a wimmins group - like a feminist lesbian sort of thing. (U don't hv 2 be a lesbian) U might find one or 2 buddies there - the "sisterhood" can be wonderfully warm and supportive and understand issues 2do with oppression even from other women - and most of them will understand perfectly if u want 2 use a different name so PM doesn't make inroads there. I really hope the chemo goes well 4 u tho. U do sound in a stronger position from the way u write which is really good 2 c

hey Sag. thanks. edited for safety

[quote="xana"][quote="shellshockella"][quote="lynn1234"]edited for safety

Hi Shell, wrot u a reply and then 4got I hadn't signed in - Gah! Thanx 4 explaining that stuff about the bank. Really all u did ws trust someone (ur own mother) who then misappropiated ur funds - i think ur right theft wd be hard 2 prove. But ur allowed 2 change ur mind about someone. I do think it's worth letting the bank know, briefly what happened in writing and ask 2 set up better security in the future saying that obvioulsly now the situation hs changed, so then at least they know. Similarly with hosp - if they hv it in black and white then it's official. I think some people with partners here hv the same problem ie being stuck with someone they may hv been close to once - so it might be worth looking at that board 2 c if there's any useful info there. Anyway hope ur having a peaceful day 2day.

Thanks Sag. You know, I hadn't thought of it that way, but you're right, it is a lot like women who are married to abusers who won't give them a divorce. People think that if you've ever been close with a person, you have no rights to change your mind and cut them out--that it's some sort of "domestic" squabble that doesn't really count. Of course, that's jsut ignorance. Most people who are murdered, are murdered by someone close to them.

editedc for safety

Reading everyone's responses, it is wonderful how perceptive children are - and how hopeful and loving. For laughs, here are some of my NM's creepy moments: accusing my sister and I, of being lesbians as young teenagers (becos we were close and resisted the comparisons etc), unzipping her dress when I was 12-13 and telling me that I spent so much time staring at her firm breasts i should just go right ahead and stare my fill, accusing my ex of hitting on her (along with all the others) and then taking our young sons to a brothel (no way), lifting her shirt to my present partner (he's 50 and she is 80) and inviting him to inspect her body for stretch marks. Fortunately most people just laugh, but it would be better if your parent wasn't a source of ridicule or horror. I am grateful to be able to say all of this here with others who understand.

Hi Shell, no problem. It's really great 2c ur feeling so much more positive. Go 4 it girl! Make 2day a really great day - do something special u enjoy as well.

Shellshockella,

"I think there might be hope for your sister. She doesn't sound N, just screwed up, from the little you've said. Was she the GC? Sounds like she's way more bonded with your mother. I was the scapegoat in my family, so in a way, I think it's easiest for me to see what PM is, while my siblings might not ever see it, especially GC."

My much younger sister is the GC...usually...but NM goes back and forth between who is the GC....the majority of the time my sister is the GC and I'm the scapegoat....However my NM will switch the roles here and there to maintain her small amount of control over my sister....My NM likes to create compition and devision between my sister and I so we don't get to close...so when necessary NM will compare us to make my sister feel insecure....or try to do the same with me but doesn't work on me anymore..

"Sounds like she's way more bonded with your mother."-

Actually, from what my H and I have observed my sister is way less bonded with NM than I was/am... which is weird, I know, because she is the GC...but my sister experienced a lot of crap still, from NM, even though she was the GC...My NM was with a P boyfriend for about 5 years while my sister was younger and living at home and he was jealous of my sister and picked on her, even exposed himself to her and verbally pushed her out of the house so she spent a lot of time living with her friends families starting at age 9 years old...NM has also been wrathful and very verbally cruel to my sister, in the past calling my sister curse words while drunk, etc etc....so life with NM wasn't perfect for the GC....I think my sister, in a weird way, is less attached to my mother than she is attached to the idea and symbol of having "a mother"...My sister for the most part stays away from my NM, because she knows NM will use her for something and that's it...that is the extent of NM... Whenever my NM and sister are in the same room my sister is sarcastic with NM, defending herself from her, sometimes laughing at her, or telling NM that she is a B*** or menopausal etc.... there is a lot of tension between them...much more than when I was my sisters age...My sister is kind of copying NM's drinking life-style and I think they bond on things like that....tatoos, big boobs, thong under-wear, these are the things they bond over....but my sister has empathy although yeah, probably messed up right now thanks to NM....

Thanks for reminding me of Al-Anon....it was a great resource before I found this website... I went a few times before I realized NM is an N....I might recommend that to my sister although she is very resistant to any suggestions like that...

" People think that if you've ever been close with a person, you have no rights to change your mind and cut them out--that it's some sort of "domestic" squabble that doesn't really count. Of course, that's jsut ignorance. Most people who are murdered, are murdered by someone close to them".

Great analogy....I might use this example once in awhile....you are so right!! and my beloved aunt was murdered by someone close to her, her P-ex boyfriend.. but you are right.....about abusers being someone close with the person....good reminder..

" I am taking your advise and sending out certified, notarized letters to all my banks, doctors etc. revoking my permission to discuss my case with anyone including her, and letting them know that if my rights are broken, there will be legal action. I'm cc'ing their legal dept. Even if the doctors think she's my caregiver, the hospital lawyers may see things differently if they realize they're jsut begging for a lawsuit. We'll see what happens. Thanks for your advise."

That sounds like wonderful advice from Sagita!!