Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

femfree · Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 665

BUT I LOVE HIM & MISS HIM!!
"Now you‘ve done it. Forced to choose between your own sanity, your future and sense of self, and the arbitrary, absurdly selfish whims of a mentally ill manipulator, you‘ve chosen the high road to peace and clear thinking. You‘ve broken up with the Narcissist.

This excerpt is from Alex Nouri's website
from: SO... (the book) by Alexandra Nouri

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aanouri/book.html/

however, I can't find that website anymore. Does anybody have any idea what might have happened to Alex Nouri's website???

gee I hate it when good sites like that one leave the 'net.

(sobbing) femfree Crying or Very sad

http://www.womansavers.com/articles-for-women/164.html

sallyishere · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 833

Femfree

I love that article. I had it in my favorites but the page wont come up. It is an excellent reminder of when we miss the N. It talks about phoning the N and the response we might get.
It certainly confirms why NC is the only way.

Sally
_________________
Sally

Just when I thought my life was over, it started again.

femfree · Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 665

In the last while we've lost two excellent websites about NPD - Alex Nouri's and the 'Shall we Call Them Human' website.

Gone

I really hate seeing such excellent websites and their resources, validation and the careful thought and personal touches that went into its creation.

Memmy, a member of our sites, created a website here:

Memmy's Jubilee Java - Abuse and Recovery - check out her pages & links!!
http://www.geocities.com/memcch/

so, if any of you guys are interested in creating your own websites about Psychopath or NPDs then we will be most happy to promote your sites and most happy also to allow use of our pages from our MSN sites as well.

The best websites are always from those who have felt the sting personally.

Lynnezer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 534

The Devaluation Funhouse - By Alex Nouri

Index

EDIT BY FEMFREE TO INCLUDE LINK
http://www.womansavers.com/articles-for-women/182.html

So, you still hanging on to that Narcissist? Good for you! I know, he's beaten your soul out of recognition and you don't know who you are anymore, but hang in there, things might turn around someday!

By now you're great friends with an adorable little quirk called devaluation. As you know, just about anything can bring this scene on, such as he'd had salami for lunch, you asked him if anything was wrong, his friend got a new girlfriend, or you were so out of control as to criticize him (such as, "I feel like I'm not as important to you as I used to be," or, "It was manipulative of you to threaten to leave if I didn't do as you say"). The mind of the narcissist is wildly chaotic, fraught with conflicts and about as predictable as the bullets in Russian Roulette.

But, usually, here's what happened: You Two Got Too Close. Yes, you probably invoked that bane of narcissistic existence, Mister Intimacy. Cuddling after nookie, kissing anytime outside of foreplay (when he initiates it), talk of meaningful growth in the relationship such as a commitment (even if he's living in your house and you've been together five years) or spending time with other couples-- though this is all pleasurable and welcomed by good men, you were a very bad girl for subjecting your poor narcissist to such torture.

And here's how you're punished. At the drop of a hat, and usually after a particularly reassuring and close time together, he'll insult you. Or threaten the relationship. He'll tell you he doesn't see how the two of you will make it. You're so demanding. Projection is common: You don't give him what he needs. You play mindgames with him. You. You. You.

Now, this serves a gleefully vast array of purposes. One, it puts distance between the two of you and abates that terrifying and nauseatingly moist intimacy you two had going. Two, it makes you anxious and upset, and as all good narcissists know, how much they can hurt you is an EXCELLENT indicator of how important they are to you. Three, you immediately begin to try to reason with him or find out what brought this on, and that, of course, is rich, full-bodied attention directed at him, the nectar of narcissistic life. Four, you might threaten to leave him, which in his absolutely chaotic and absurd mind is what he wants, as a latent response to childhood anxieties. (Go ahead and convincingly say you're leaving. Watch him shift into capitulation overdrive. You'll see a turn-around that'll make your head spin.)

The most common form of narcissistic devaluation is the blame-and-bolt maneuver. You two are doing great. You're sitting on the porch together, playing footsies, talking about the dog. Then, he drops a dig.

"If we break up, I think you should take the dog."

This comes out of nowhere. You catch your breath and say, "What do you mean? Why would we break up?"

"Well," his powerful logic informs you, "Like I've said before, I just don't know if this can work out."

"But, it already is working out. Why wouldn't it work out?"

"I don't know," he shrugs. "I just never really know with you. Sometimes I feel like you'd rather die than let me know what you're thinking. I don't think a relationship can survive like that."

You sit in stunned silence, remembering his complaining the day before that you talked too much.

"So," he concludes with a flourish, "I don't know. That's all I can say. I just don't know." And, if he's bored with your response because it's not riveting or desperate enough: "I gotta go."

SCORE!! You've been devalued! Sadistically put down, robbed of any orientation or security, told you're disposable, and it's ALL YOUR FAULT. Optional ornaments include rage, obscenity, name-calling, and maybe even a cliche'd insult or two. (Narcissists aren't the most creative psychopaths in the DSM.)

If you're with a man who devalues you just once, get out. If you give him another chance, the probability of him doing it again and again is 100%. Your love and efforts will not save the relationship, it will bring on more devaluation. Get out and find somebody sane.

-------------------------

EDITED BY FEMFREE TO INCLUDE LINK

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aanouri/index.html
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_________________
Ns are equal opportunity offenders. Shampoo, rinse, repeat. Wink

Lynnezer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 534

Missing the Narcissist - By Alex Nouri
Index

Now you've done it. Forced to choose between your own sanity, your future and sense of self, and the arbitrary, absurdly selfish whims of a mentally ill manipulator, you've chosen the high road to peace and clear thinking. You've broken up with the Narcissist.

IT'S NOT TOO LATE!!!! CALL HIM!!! Beg his forgiveness! Yes, he'll wiggle with glee at your showering him with this attention and taunt you with ambivalence or outright haughty insults as punishment for your taking control of your own life, but hang in there! You might still be able to resume your place in his whacked psychoworld!

OK. I know. You miss him. We all know how that feels. But, now, let's take a peek at this 'missing' thing.

I assume we all agree that with Narcissists, we're generally dealing with two people: The guy he is, and the guy he pretended to be. You miss one of them. I take it we all know which one.

Pretend Guy is gone. Deceased. This hurts. This really hurts. It needs to be mourned. In addition to the loss of Pretend Guy, you've got mucho grande abuses heaped on you by Actual Guy. Topping off this pile of misery and trauma, Actual Guy and Pretend Guy inhabit the same body. Only another psycho wouldn't be thrown into a tailspin by the surreality of it all.

When he calls you after the breakup, he sounds just like Pretend Guy! 'You're alive!,' you think. 'You're not dead! Yes, YOU are my true love! You're finally back! Oh, WHEN can I see you?'

Whoa, there, Sister. Let me spare you a tiny bit of hurt here by having us skip ahead to where he slams you again and you wake up in the harsh, cold world of Reality. Things just got even worse. Pretend Guy is still gone, Actual Guy is still abusing you, Pretend Guy and Actual Guy are still the same guy, AND now any baby steps into healing you might have made just got deleted into nothingness.

And you wonder how he's feeling. Of course you do; not only are you sensitive and caring (Narcissists don't pick hardasses for partners), but you're conditioned to feel that way. The entire relationship was about him and his wants and needs. He literally trained you to think of little else. The real you, the pre-N you, doesn't want an abusive, mentally ill, inconsistent, selfish freak, ridiculous in his pandering for attention, chock full of contempt and inner conflicts that spill out and burn you. The real you wants a real partner.

"Hey," I hear one loyal heroine say. "Don't talk about him like that! He's NOT an abusive, selfish freak! He's.... Well, OK, he's an abusive, inconsistent, selfish, ridiculous, freak, but he's MY abusive, selfish freak!" Oh. Sorry. Hey, didn't I see you last week on Jerry Springer?

For the rest of us, we need to heed the experiences of my online friend L. L's man came on strong. Charming. Wonderful. They married, and he immediately became selfish, cold, and ambivalent about their marriage but refused to leave; he was unempathic, wildly defensive and manipulative. He was a Narcissist. L knew something was morbidly wrong, but she stayed; he'd grow distant, she'd work to make it better. How long did this go on before she read the writing on the wall?

Friend L stayed with her narcissist for three decades, until she 'selfishly' left him to preserve the remaining shards of sanity she had. I wonder if she has any regrets about leaving and wishes she could have him back, or if she has any general advice for the rest of us. Let's ask her, shall we?

Alex: Hey, L. Do you have any advice for the gals out here who are on the fence about their Narcissist partners?

L: G E T! O U T! I WENT THROUGH YEARS OF HELL. I SHOULD HAVE LEFT THIRTY YEARS AGO. I WANT MY THIRTY YEARS BACK!!!

Hmmm. Well, don't pay any attention to her. She should have stayed for 31 years; maybe THEN he would have changed. Besides, YOUR Narcissist is different! HE'LL get better! He will! I swear! Please, just take him back and get him away from the rest of us...

When we leave the Narcissist, it's because the abuse has gotten intolerable. Afterwards, when he calls us and pushes the buttons he knows extremely well, the temptation to give him another chance can be overwhelming. We're hurt; we're mad; we want to recoup some of our losses; we love him and want it to work; we just can't believe that anyone would be so warped as to hurt us that way, so we want to give them the benefit of the doubt. All roads point to trying again with the N.

Except for one. Reality. Truth. Knowledge, and honesty with yourself. Your peace. Your health. This road points in the opposite direction away from the Narcissist. Yes, it's an uphill road, but if you can invest in the climb the view from the top is spectacular.

Does it seem like if you just invested enough love and time in the Narcissist, well, it just can't help but to get better?

Our L spent 30 years wanting her narcissist to get better. I wonder if he started to get a little better around year 10. Or year 17. Year 23? Year 29? Is L. content that she tried hard enough to make the relationship work? Let's ask L.

Alex: Hey, L, are you glad you spent 30 years in a 'relationship' with a narcissist?

L: AAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHHH....... AAAAAAACCCCCCKKKKKKKKHHHHHHHHH....

Sorry, folks. Apparently I said something wrong.

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aanouri/index.html

Edited by Femfree to include original link
So, You're in Love With a Narcissist by Alexandra Nouri (with permission)
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aanouri/

(Note: link does not work March 2/07)
_________________
Ns are equal opportunity offenders. Shampoo, rinse, repeat. Wink

Lynnezer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 534

Article by Alex Nouri

So, you're in love with a narcissist. That is SO cool; I'm guessing these are probably the best days of your life. Yeah, they have their foibles, but aren't they so emotionally satisfying, and just fun, fun, fun?

Ack.

Let's peek at some traits.

"Usually above-average intelligence..." Compared to what? They have abilities and can perform necessary tasks just like any other psychopathic lunatic, I'll give them that. But these people are the stupidest people on Earth. There is ZERO depth to their awareness.

Take your last conversation with him (permit me the traditional pronoun here, please, gender-aware reader). Did you come away feeling enlightened? Enriched? Like you'd 'shared?' Or like you'd just tried to speak with a drunken baboon vaunting an attitude problem? Was it a mutually beneficial exchange of ideas, opinions or feelings, or was it you being sane and trying to make the simplest of points and him copping a defensive stance that would make the Iraqi Army jealous, using doublespeak and laughable (if they weren't so ugly) non sequiturs designed to flummox you and make him look victorious?

IQ aside, only a moron would take a clear statement such as, "You contradicted yourself, and I need to know what you really meant," and internally process it thusly: 'RED ALERT! RED ALERT! Attack! Assault! Oh, so I'm contradicting myself, eh? You think I'm just a contradicting, know-nothing, argumentative horse turd, eh? You think I'm just a worthless dumb-ass jerk, eh? Well, I'll show you! I'LL GET YOU FOR THAT!'

Look at him with love and devotion and say, "I need to know what you mean when you say, 'This relationship is a side-track event.' Do you understand?" He'll look like a deer caught in your headlights, and then collect himself and say, "Of course I understand. You're confused by facts and logic."

Hm. Brainy.

"Seeks out adulation..." Here's where some of us trip up. We love giving love, and love it when it's well-received. Here's the fact of it: It ain't love they want. Love is deep. Narcissists have the depth of a sidewalk mud puddle. They only want love to the extent that it looks like worship. They like, "Oh, I just loved the way you parked the car. How do you do that, always so straight and just the right distance from the house (moonstruck looks, starry eyes)?" They hate, "I love you, and I was wondering if you thought about the future." Even if that's presented after 12 years together, you're on a romantic boat trip and you're pregnant, it will be processed thusly: "RED ALERT! RED ALERT! Assault! Attack! You want to rip away my freedom, eh? Tell me what to do, eh? You think I can just be your puppet? You think YOU should be the one to make these decisions? Well, I'LL GET YOU FOR THAT!"

And they do. Oh, they do. Any more traits lying around here?

"Exploitive..." Oh, ignore that. It sounds so negative. They don't 'exploit,' per se, they just... 'enjoy and don't bother reciprocating.'

Let's say you're seeing a dashing, sensitive narcissist. You meet at the beach, have a picnic that you brought, you listen to his bitching and tell him what a masterful work of art he is; you walk back to your house, you make love; he naps, gets up and showers, and, with a kiss, of course, leaves and you don't hear from him for a week. A "normal" guy might call, send flowers, ask you out the next night, take you to meet his friends, something boring like that. But a narcissist, he's got things to do! People to see! PRIORITIES! If you say, "I need to see you more. I feel like you don't take us seriously," he'll probably respond with a reassuring and comforting selection from the following, meant to end the discussion cold:

"I know. This is hard."
"I just don't know if I can."
"Maybe you just need to decide what we have is enough."
"But this is special. Like a summertime affair. We're like kids again."
"I do take it seriously. It just doesn't seem that way to you. Maybe something's wrong with you."

"Sense of entitlement..." Well, yes. When he's the most special, unique butthole in existence, he has certain perks. One is that he gets to do whatever he wants, to whomever he wants, right at that moment. This is particularly so as applied to you, the one who loves him. He gets to flirt and not have it bother you. He gets to ignore you and have you gush with joy when you see him next, like some codependent Irish Setter. He gets to tell you it's over and dump you and then come back to your open arms when he's short on attention from other people. And, most of all, he gets to soak up the attention you give him, bask in it, and then sneer at you and go get more from someone else.

If your Narcissist throws you a crumb of attention, take it and savor it and deluge him with appreciation for it. Do NOT under ANY circumstances snort with disgust and drop his sorry ass to free yourself up for someone much, much better. Hang onto him at all costs. ALL COSTS. This won't do you a damn bit of good, but it will help keep him away from the rest of us.

OK. On a less ascerbic note.

Now, we know love is a good thing. Good love involves exchanging respect, affection, time and support with someone special. It feels good and when it has rough spots the two parties work them through.

But the harsh truth is that there are those among us who don't love. And when they pretend to, at our expense, that's a painful thing for the rest of us. They pretend to love because they know we'll love them back and they like the way it feels when we adore them and struggle to make a relationship with them work. It makes them feel special.

But one day we look up and we see that we're the one putting in all the respect, affection, time and support, and they're taking it as well-deserved worship and hold out their hands for more.

We try to work through rough spots. And with a narcissist that's where the REAL ouchies kick in.

In rough spots good people look at the matter and review their own role in it as well as that of their partner. Narcissists are so desperate to always look perfect to themselves that the chances are zero of them ever considering they might have caused someone discomfort. So, if the two of you have a problem, guess whose fault it is?

In rough spots good people look toward the goal of working it out and going on in better understanding. Narcissists would rather dump the whole thing and start fresh with someone else. If you're with a narcissist, your purpose in life is to reassure them that they're as perfect as they want to be. So, if you find that there's something imperfect about them and show it, as in your saying, "You hurt my feelings," "But you said you'd call. I needed to hear from you," or "Why did you spend our whole night at the party talking to the pretty woman from work?", then you aren't doing your job and may need to be replaced with someone much weaker or more troubled. (Healthy, strong people defend their due and their boundaries in relationships. Narcissists hate that.)

In rough spots, good people engage in logical though maybe passionate debates about the issues. They ask each other what they want and use that information to make each other and themselves happy and fulfilled. A narcissist may very well ask you what you want; they'll then use that information to manipulate you by threatening to withhold what you need and try to extract more attention and reassurance from you. And this is what you'll get in return: punishment for having challenged their perfection in the first place. Threats of abandonment. Accusations. Contempt.

Does all this sound far-fetched and like a lame made-for-TV movie? Then you've never had an encounter with a narcissist.

If you're with a narcissist, do research. Write your feelings down. Get some therapy. Do whatever helps, but before you do anything, get out. Just get out. And don't look back. The view ain't pretty.

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aanouri/index.html
_________________
Ns are equal opportunity offenders. Shampoo, rinse, repeat. Wink

femfree · Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 665

Hi Lynnezer.

Please please please include the link to the original article, the author's name for creditation and citation of the original article so we don't get in trouble with the copyright Gods - Also, all we can use is a sentence or two and a link back to the original article. what is appearing here is that you are the author and clearly that is not true. this is a major problem with citation and copyright laws. If you dont' include it we'll yank it and you could be banned. Sorry, but copyright rules must be honoured.

Lynnezer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 534

Femfree,

I noted the author but the link is the same as yours which doesn't come up anymore.

Should I just delete them?
_________________
Ns are equal opportunity offenders. Shampoo, rinse, repeat. Wink

femfree · Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 665

Are these articles at the woman saver.com site? If so, we can use that link. Please search google.com to see where it is located and imporantly, state that the author is Alex Nouri and a link to the original article.

It's so important to do this. Our site could be shut down. Where are you copying this from? Your own personal files or a website. It may have relocated to another site. I always try to link to the originating website - but alas, the web is a sneaky thing and sites tend to disappear. (sigh)

Lynnezer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 534

femfree · Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 665

I had written Alex some years back and obtained permission to use excerpts from her site. I'm very sad to see it go. Do you have copies of all the pages she had, or most? It would be a tragedy to see them get zapped into cyberheaven. Perhaps we can add them here - can you email me at femfree@yahoo.com and we'll see if we can work out something. Apparnelty the woman savers has some and if we have some perhaps we'll have a full set - all we need is a website and to contact Alex for her OK.

I hate losing Alex's site and the "Shall we call them Human" - they were wonderful websites. Thanks for including her name Lynnezer

femfree · Joined: 11 Feb 2007 Posts: 665

I have written a quick note to Alex with the last email addy I had for her and I'm hoping to get a reply (finger's crossed)

It's a shame to lose them.

Lynnezer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 534

feelingroovey · Joined: 21 Feb 2007 Posts: 182

Wow - thanks for all of these great articles!!! I was in love with pretend guy, not actual guy. It's so simplified, yet hits the nail on the head! It's unbelievable. Thank you, this has really helped me!! I don't want to be some "co-dependent Irish setter" (that was my favorite part) and that is exactly what I was becoming because he was a master manipulator! For the first time, I feel excited about never contacting him again (until I get weak again, right?) thanks again

Lynnezer · Joined: 15 Feb 2007 Posts: 534