Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Please help with this. At what age can a child or young adult be told that one of the parents is a N or socialpath to help them cope with understanding why your getting a divorce and why the other parent is they way they are and that they should not feel depressed and that is not their fault. Anyone on this forum gotten professional advise on this matter.

When I realized what I was dealing with the guilt and shame and not to mention depression disapeared and all came into about my soon to be ex spouse's behaviour. My daughter is going through bouts of depression since being informed of the divorce and is extremely confused as to why her mother is berating her and controlling her excessively . Would giving her the information need via the definition of a N or Socialpth help her see more clearly and would it be a form of alianation or simply giving my daughter the tools the same tools i needed to make informed decisions and save myself from insanity. thanks for your replies.

I am only 18 months into this, so I can only answer from what I have learned. The short answer is your daughter will have to learn for herself. It's going to be painful for her, but if you try to explain to her you will only make it seem like you're attacking the other parent which leave her hurt and confused. No matter how badly this parent treats her, she will want to earn their love and respect.

What I am doing so far is to make sure my kids have limited contact with their N dad, take them to regular counseling so they have an outlet for their emotions and a safe place to share their feelings, and do my best to surround them with positive people and experiences including making sure I am being supportive and encouraging as a parent.

I hope some other people on here can give you good input as well.

-Rebecca

rebeccajoy08 wrote:I am only 18 months into this, so I can only answer from what I have learned. The short answer is your daughter will have to learn for herself. It's going to be painful for her, but if you try to explain to her you will only make it seem like you're attacking the other parent which leave her hurt and confused. No matter how badly this parent treats her, she will want to earn their love and respect.

What I am doing so far is to make sure my kids have limited contact with their N dad, take them to regular counseling so they have an outlet for their emotions and a safe place to share their feelings, and do my best to surround them with positive people and experiences including making sure I am being supportive and encouraging as a parent.

I hope some other people on here can give you good input as well.

-Rebecca

thanks Rebecca
Could sure use some more insight into this questions. Daughter is 15 going on 16. We tend to think of alienation as using lies which the N is currently using on the kids saying im the one trying to destroy the family. However she is the one still sleeping in the youngest daughter room and has been for the past 2 years. What does that send to the children. This is what they are going to think in a normal relationship.

I thought i could love this person until my brother brought to my attention all the qualities that she possed where that or a N/Psyco. and boy did that wake me up. What I have a hard time to swallow is that a person can be charge with phycological abuse yet we let a N do the same to our children in the name on not alienating them. Frankly how could one call telling the young adult about N alienating when you are simply giving them the information outlining the behaviour. Stating the truth is not alienating. Lying Is and giving them facts about one characteristics and what they are is not.

The best advise to someone living with a N is to get as far away as you can and have no contact yet leave the kids behind and be abused by the control and take up the habits of a N . lying, OCP , alienation of friends etc.

Any one else with insight into this dilema.

The best I can do to answer your question is to tell you that it's OK to point out FACTS to the kids when necessary, but it's not OK to give them your OPINION on those facts. While you may see it as a FACT that their N/P mother is an N/P, it's not the kind of thing I mean. Now, what she DOES is a FACT. You can delicately point out actions when necessary. But they need to form their own opinions. And narcissism is a very heavy concept to deal with. Way too heavy for a kid whose family structure is changing. What they need to learn is that they can trust you to love them for who they are - not for what they can do for you, like their N/P mom "loves" them.

But Rebecca is right. Kids have to come to their own conclusions. Stuffing our own conclusions on them just doesn't sit well with them and will do nothing for your relationship with them. And THEY NEED A STABLE, SANE PARENT! That is YOU. You can reassure them that you love them and that the problems you and their mother are having have nothing to do with the kids. You can't repeat that enough. Trying to convince them that you are right and their N/P mother is wrong does not show that you love them or that they have nothing to do with your dispute with your spouse. It actually shows that you don't value them independently of the divorce/separation issues.

You can make the time you have with the kids ALL ABOUT THE KIDS. They hear enough complaints about you from N/Pmom. They don't want to in turn hear from you what they will see as you doing the same thing she is. You can just make your time with them a time and place where they can emotionally relax. You can be CONSISTENT. What the kids need most of all is time to see you for who you are, not for the monster she paints you to be. This takes lots of time and lots of patience, and to get time with them, they need to know they don't have to be emotionally on guard with you.

Assume she's telling them you don't love them. She most likely is. So it's VERY important to always show them you love them and that you care about nothing in the world more than you care about them and their wellbeing. Don't let a day go by without trying to contact them and tell them you're thinking of them.

And this is the hardest part, or at least was and still is for me: Don't let them push your buttons when they repeat her lies about you to you, as if it's their own thought. A great response when this happens, if you can think of it at the time, is "I wonder where you might have heard that? Have you ever seen/heard me do that?"

Using the alienating parent's tactics yourself on the kids will only backfire, as tempting as it may be, and as true as your opinions of the Nspouse may be. The kids need to be able to trust you, and giving your opinion about their other parent will not make them trust you. They need to form their own opinions. They probably have one that's not favorable, but they know it's not safe to not please the N/P.

One last thing - in a gentle way, when the opportunity arises, let the kids know that you know it's difficult hearing N/P parent saying bad things about you, but there is nothing you can do about it. And let them know they can talk to you about anything, any time.

I know one thing the hardest thing is to bite your tongue. I am lucky, I have 3 boys, 7,8,9(almost), we had raised them well above a normal child level so they have more insight. I thought it would take a few years before they realized their N father was an N. But they get it already, they see the games, they do not want to be with him becuase he is controlling and mean. The hardest thing I do is have to give them to him for parenting time, the first few days back they are a wreck.

The 2 older boys were around for all the fighting when we lived together. They also are not stupid and have picked up on what their dada is doing.

I have 3 rules:

1. Communicate with N not around them or mostly via email.
2. If a fight starts , walk out or hang up.
3. Write everything down he says and what they say, this will help as time goes on. My oldest has his own journal. Also any programs outside of counseling like big brothers or sisters is great, they have an outside opinion that is almost HERO like to them of the older kids. This gives them an outlet aside from the parents and counselors. This really is helping my oldest.

The depression is still there, especially in my youngest, but the funny thing is he only wants to go to dad's to play the wii. Since they do not do anything else when they are there.

Even my firends have commented that they cannot believe the kids have gotten it so early. So hang in tere, it will come. I saw my sister go through the same thing with her first husband and kids. The kids got it eventually, but they were in college when it happended.

...

Hi Rockbird,

Having been the child in a situation similar to yours, hopefully i can share some useful information.

My father is an N. My parents divorced when I was young, 7 or 8yrs old. It was a difficult situation to be in. On the one hand, I had a mom who was struggling to keep the house, make ends meet, put clothes on our backs, and food on the table. On the other hand I had a disneyland dad who saw me every other weekend, talked trash about my mom relentlessly, and believed that $$ = love.

Bless my mom's heart, she never said a bad word about NF, even when she had the opportunity. NF on the other hand would bitch to me about having to pay child support, would say things like "your mother must like a vibrator more than a real man" etc. Knowing what I know now, I know NF was NOT a real man. It took me until my early 20's to figure things out. There was a good deal of emotional abuse, neglect, one occasion of physical abuse, and a lot of confusion on my end. I mean, it's difficult for a child when your drunk sperm donor is sobbing about how much he loves you & misses you, and then gets up the next morning and goes digging in his garden, drinking beer all day, leaving you to fend for yourself.

in the end he hung himself. The turning point was when wife #2 had some family over, one of her brothers is gay, and NF made a comment to me that "If you ever turn out like that, please don't tell me". It took my mind years to process the significance of that statement, but when I did I knew that NF's love was conditional, and I deserved better than that.

In the end, he ended up doing it to himself, my mom didn't need to say a word. I've been NC for almost 10 years. Hope it helps.

Techman,
Thank you SO MUCH for your input. I think we all struggle here with wanting what's best for our kids, but not really knowing what that is. We want to spare them the pain of trying and trying to earn love from the N parent, but at the same time, some of us know that our kids love the N parent so much it hurts them to not have time with them.

I let my criticisms slip too often and I am working hard on that, but I have never bashed my kids' dad to their face like he does to me.

Again, thanks for commenting on this post. It really helps to hear from someone who's been there, done that.

-Rebecca

Rebecca, glad I could help.

There were other things he did too, you don't really notice them as a kid, but once you get older and begin to understand how the world works, you look back and think "so that's what xyz meant"... SD used to LOVE to hand the child support check to my mom personally, so that she knew where she was getting the money from. She ended up having to ask her lawyer to help put an end to it.

I hear ya on the criticism, it's not easy when you are dealing with an N, in the end, I believe that if you do the best job you can, and provide them with a warm, stable & loving home your children will come to the right conclusion on their own. Both my brother and I (the only children from sperm donor's first marriage) have been NC with him for a long time. That speaks volumes...

I know you guys have been through some rough stuff, so I hope it helps a bit to know the wisdom you learned really does help others. Thanks for taking the time to give it.

Well as we all have been saying the truth will come out. This weekend when I picked up the kids from the N's house, I deceided to also vring down some of his stuff...more like junk he had all over the house. I also was trying to return the gifts we had gotten rom his parents over the years, mostly furniture they bought for us, which doe snot even fit our decor of the house. But anyways, I neatly stacked the stuff on the porch and knocked on the door...he got soo mad he kicked the kids out yelling and screaming at me for playing these games. The kids were not even dressed. No shoes and one was in his underwear. So believe me teh kids will get it, but it is too bad that they have to live through it.

During his ranting a raving his new neighbors all cam eoutr, and I politely responded, "I do not know why you are so upset, you said you did not have room in your car to move the stuff, you have been gone for over 2 years. What did you expect, me to bring it into the house and put it away for you too." You asked for these items ......his repsonce was that he was not going to hold to the agreed to parenting time for the month and that I was a "B". All of this in front of the kids. I borught a witness and took pictures to make sure he did not say I just threw it on his lawn....etc. He did not like that, becuase documentation and witnesses with an N is everyhting.

The kids got into the car and basically called him an "AH", they are only 7,. 8, and 9, and they never want to go back there again.

Mirna,
Sorry you & your children had to endure that scene, typical N... It's VERY wise of you to have witnesses and photo evidence. N's are master manipulators, and very often it is extremely difficult to prove these things when it's your word against theirs - unless you have evidence. Keep fighting the good fight!

Thanks techman for the encouragement...I am just soooo tired.

Thank you for sharing these stories. I am sorry for your situations.

Now, maybe someone has a take on my particular situation. My stbx nh (soon to be ex narc. husband) has become an expert on compartmentaizing. He does the abuse to me, not the kids. Mine-two older and two young ones. The two older- all those years they never knew. they would see me in my angry stage (when I realized I was being abused by the very man I trusted) and all they thought is/was that I have anger issues. They never saw the abuse. He is a master at hiding it and doing it only to me. This has made it very hard for them to understand what is really going on, has gone on in their childhood. It makes it hard to divorce him because they think, he has problems but Mom is the one at fault. They blame his problems on him not being good with our finances -something he can't hide because the fall out is there.

But they never saw the abuser, he manages to make sure he does not do it to them. So, I have this particular problem now, how to tell them. The oldest kid, she knows the truth but will not believe it. I told her, without trashing him, I just told her the truth. The other-well she won't hear anything. I have tried to explain it -but I don't get past, "There is a bit more than you know". I see she does not want her ideal image of her Dad to go down.

What should I do? Forget that they don't/won't accept the truth about him? It is almost impossible to make anyone believe it in my whole realm of friends and family, but a few who know the truth do believe. But the children, should I just let it go? Should I go forth with the filing and not say anything? Is there something I can say? They think I have just not worked hard enough at resolving our issues and I am unChristian-like to give up on our marriage. He feeds them lies about me in a "oh your poor Mom, she has problems" kind of way and they believe him because they think he is being compassionate but in truth he trashes me, and makes them think I am crazy. My oldest was here recently (she lives a few states away) and she told me (nicely) I ought to go on medication. That was a shocker, I assumed he has been telling her I need help. Always a grain of truth, I do, it is exhausitng and emotionally upsetting, but I am not crazy and I don't need meds as my depression is under control. That came from him.

They and he seem to know a divorce is coming. Is there something I can say? I have thought of "When you want to hear more, I will tell you why I have to do this" What do you think of that? One is in her 20's ,one late teens.

My only chance at truth being revealed-in the last few months, he slipped at his Mastery of Compartmentalizing. he did the abuse thing to each of them, over different matters. Whether he was tired or what, I do not know. Watching him do this, one was a scene I will never forget. it was like watching ME, only it was my daughter. He did to her what he has done to me for years. For the first time. Since it was only once to each (that I know of) I don't think the impact is great enough for that to help them "get it". I think it is very easy to forgive a Dad they love for a transgression.. After all, I did for years.

I haven't even asked about the little ones, they are under 10. I try really ahrd not to say anything negative about their Dad, but it slips out. He makes me so angry. I am in the "letting it go" mode, but-as you all know it is hard.

AnnMing.,

..Been there and done that. I don;t think I have even gotten through the let-it-go phase. It has been 2 years, but the N's constant coming back and forth did not help. I realized that every time I was on my way to becoming myself again that he would step in and make nice, then he made me miserable again. Financal ruin was also MY fault, even though he paid the bills and spent the money( I made it ).

It is hard to drop or forget the good times in your memory. But it is even harder when you have little children who want a family with their mommy and daddy in it. My kids are young and I thought for awhile they would blame me. But they have already seen through their father's games. I love hearing their stories and their advice to me. They already get it, so that helps in letting go. It took me 2 years to file after separation, and lived a hellish life for 3 years before that together. All I can say is one day at a time. A friend keeps telling me to repeat the following: "This is not good for me and not good for the kids!".

My sister went through the same thing with older kids, they got it when they were in college. It took a long time, they love their father unconditionally and you should support this. Just draw the line that this is between you and him. Eventually the kids get it.

Thank you for your rely. I am so sorry you went through this. It is so tiring. Isn't it?

I am just wondering though, if they ever get it, if they do not see it. He hides it. He does it to me. He is like a model father to them, except for two times in recent months where he was downright mean and controlling to my daughters. They were perplexed momentarily, but they got over it. Will they ever see it if they barely ever catch him? They do not beleive me because A) they only see my reactions, anger in the past, depression, and B) they are told lies, told Mom is mentally ill, stuff like that so they have a reinforcement from him it is me. How will they ever see it? It is different than a N who also abuses the kids. KWIM?

Opinions?

Also, what do you think of this: as I file and he balks I was thinking of saying: ok, you want to fix this, don't you? Go tell our grown daughters the truth about you, about what you've done to me.

Unless he does that and has a 100% turn around in his personality, I will not take him back. If he does it and does not change-the scene I expect- I will at least have the satisfaction they heard it from him. There is a slight chance he would do this. He has a lot to lose having me divorce him. His career and such.

He will never change...ever. I had the exact same feelings you have. It was the biggest struggle that I have had to got through. I withdrew filing twice becuase of him wanting to make it right. It just got worse. They will see it because he cannot hide it from them that long. Trust me, once you file they will see it. The N turn into a different person. Just be a loving mother and be there for the kids. They come first.

Is he still living with you? If so that could be a problem.

My N lost his career because of his domestic abuse. After he realized he actually had to go out and get a job , he was too selfish to share his income to support the family and left. I lost my business becuase of him, or what I allowed him to do. I am rebuilding now, and he has a new job which is a posiiton where he is in power and control of overr 100 people. That he likes..typical N. But he does not like his job, he is in the medical field and would ratheer be working hands on with patients. Anyways. If he has alot to loose like mine did , it still did not matter they will throw it way to keep the control over you. Do not feel sorry for him. He would do nothing to help you if the situation was reversed.
You need to get back to being you, once you split and file you can do that and probably not before. Then your children will see the real you znd see the differences between you and the N.

You are crazy right right now because he is driving you there. I was afraid to come home after work just so I did not have to deal with him. I lost alot of time with my kids...that is not the case any longer. I had put him first and not the children. That is what you need to focus on.

AnnMing,

Mirna is so right. He will never change, even if he swears to you with tears in his eyes he will. He'll just get better at lying.

Your stbx nh sounds very much like the one I was married to for 19 years. My children were 15 and 18 when I finally left. I've come to understand over the past 3 years that he was alienating my kids from me while emotionally abusing me pretty much from they time the kids could talk. Covert, subversive undermining. I knew he undermined my parenting and always made me the heavy, but now I know it was much worse.

I don't have any advice for you, because both my kids are completely alienated from me now. I did the best I could with the younger one, but XN enlisted the older one in his alienation tactics and they probably won't realize what he has done to them for decades, if ever. He emotionally abuses them now too, and since I left, I have heard of bad verbal abuse as well. No matter - they still believe his lies about me and that I am the "crazy" one. Stockholm Syndrome explains their loyalty to him.

I would say let your actions speak for themselves with the older children. The damage he's done to them is already done and it's hard to talk sense to an older teen/20 something who has his/her mind made up.

Don't trust him to talk to the kids without you there. He'll just twist things and feed them more lies about how horrible you are. Family counseling, maybe, with a third party who is neutral, maybe. But these covert Ns can snow anyone, and will. I speak from experience.

With the younger ones, it's a totally different story, I think, and others posting here have excellent advice. Reading the book Divorce Poison is a very important place to start.

The most important thing you can do for your kids is to take care of yourself and remove yourself, and them as much as possible, from his covert abuse and influence. These covert abusers are evil cowards who will stop at nothing and stoop to anything to hurt others in order to make themselves feel superior. (((HUGS)))

Thanks AnnMing

I needed that , just went through a bad exchnage with the kids. They di NOT want to go , they miss their home, their beds, their pets, their friends. They are sick of travelling 3 hours each way , and becuase of the standard court order parenting schedule right now he has had them 6 out of the last 7 weeks. They just threw a hissy and refused to go , and asked me to call an attorney. They also locked him out of the house.

He of course blames me for this, but as I reminded him that last weekend when he had then for 5 days he would not allow any phone contact between me and thjem. I even bought them all their own cell phones and he hid them. I finally reached them late Staurday night on his old cell phone when the babysitter he dumped them on picked up. Per the court order he cannot even leave them with anyone else without contacting me. I of course reamed the internet babysitting service.

But , you are right they are all so cocky and it is all about them. I asked him why he was figthing me for custody of the kids, and he said :BECAUSE I WANT THEM. Not that I love them of course. They are only possessions to him to get to me.

We go to court again in 10 days, this time I got all over my attornrey to get judgement entries filed. I think I am going to try to go for a psych eval and make him unfit, he has no track record with the kids or other people and has already been arrested for domestic violence. I know his trigger points to set him off so I gave those to my attorney.

For years I have seen him manipulate people to use them for his benefit, yet he never does anything unconditional for anyone else. I know his game and he knows I know it...that is why I think he battles so hard with the kids. Mine pretty much have got it, they want to video what he does to them so I can use it against him in court. That would be funny to see if they actual do.
Thanks again...fight hard to protect.

I wish mine would get it but I can see how they never will.One had him treat her very poorly over some issue. She was hurt and she came to me. He must have slipped. He let into ehr and was acutally quite rude to her and cold. She wasn't doing what he wanted and I think his control issues got the better of him and he let it slip. So, she was completely bewildered. Dad had never doen this to her before, only to me, and only when they could not hear. I am deeply grieved he has hurt her this way, but she got over it and they are good buds again. He has made himself her hero in so many ways she just can't get enough of it, and she is in her 20's. But I am hoping some day, she will remember this glimpse she had of the real Dad.

Thanks for some of your story Mirna. I feel so abdly for your kids. You see -he does it to them. He lets into them. MIne is like under complete control with my kids. Once recently the little ones confided in me Daddy lost it, another breakthrough. But they will chalk it up to "all parents lose it once in a while".

I appreciate the advice on not expecting him to change. After recent invasions of my privacy I am angered up again to call the legal people. I need to get him out of here. Recent manipulation: I think he is planning to get the kids a puppy. He knows I have said specifically I am not ready for one and he knows this is my field, I research and breed. He has nothing to do with it for eyars and years, he doesn't care, he wants to ruin my plans and snatch up the kids' affection at the same time. A grand maneuver.I stopped a few years ago, and plan to start again. He knows this and the breed he was looking at was not even my breed. He will be BigDADDYhero of course to them. How dare he do this and make me the bad guy, no way am I taking on the responsibility of a puppy now. He knows this errrgh. He will do anything to win their hearts. I have a mind to tell them the truth of what he has done if he tries to sneak this one in.

The pet thing is funny, I am an avaid pet oover and have bred dogs for years. I promised the kids puppies and they also have kittens since we live on alot of land. My N sad if I did not get rid of the pets he would leave me and the kids. He did. We kept the pets, and I got my the kids the puppies I promised.

Yet he moved into a house with another woman who has dogs and cats...ha ha!!!