Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

At the request of Matilda, I am posting my new list of "Personal Boundaries" for all to add to or comment on.

Trying to apply what I've learned from my past experience into practical action for the future.

P.S. Applies to everyone N and Non N, of what will or will not be acceptable in future romantic relationships. Just thought I'd share, cause many are also red flags of N behavior patterns:


1) If they lie - they are out the door.

2) if they cheat - they are out the door, and that door is closed forever.

3) If they 'bad mouth'/ name-call all of their ex's - end it there b/c they will do the same to me at some point down the road!

4) If they do not accept responsibility / accountability for their own actions or co-creation in a bad situation (everyone else's fault) - they are out.

5) If they want me to 'fix' them - I'm not even opening the door in the first place.

6) arrogant / entitled - I've never liked arrogance to begin with.

7) disrespectful - which really includes all of the above but also how they treat other people in general, and in casual situations. i.e. if make fun of others to make themselves feel or look better (pointing out others physical flaws, etc..) - and/or - If they are mean, vile, demanding, etc.. of someone they don't know (wait staff, clerks, etc...)- just imagine how comfortable they would be doing this to someone they DO know.



AREAS of extreme caution:

8 ) when they describe how 'they use to be' "bad"/a player/user - believe they are still the same until proven otherwise = when actions are consistently proven to match the words. (I do believe people CAN change if they truly want to and make a sincere effort - althought right now, i will admit, I would run in the opposite direction simply d/t experience with exN).

9) If something about them makes me feel uneasy, THERE IS A REASON - listen to my instincts rather than dismiss them or try to 'make' that person fit some mold i've created for them in order to see good. I have a tendency to only want to see the good.

10) If I get weak in the knees / feel butterflies - I tend to ignore red flags and weaken my boundaries. Want to maintain awareness so that I can mantain healthy boundaries.

*new one* 11 ) if they are in 'hiding', then they are USUALLY also hiding something about themselves from you! - One area that made me feel uneasy, was the lengths he would go to to 'hide' from his ex's - not publishing his name in the phone book; intentionally not telling his ex when he switched jobs and where he was working even though it would affect health insurance coverage for their children; had two cell phones - one for use with everyone else and the other just for correspondance with the ex's; wouldn't give the names of the ex's b/c he learned with ex wife #2 that they will band together to 'gang up on him'. He NEVER told me the last names of his two ex wives... and went to GREAT lengths so that I wouldn't find out OW's name b/c he was affraid we would all 'clue' each other in. PARANOID BEHAVIOR.


Please feel free to add to the list and/or comment.

loux

Also, If the relationship is heading towards a Jerry Springer episode run for the hills. :)

very true Free... but what things will you be looking for EARLY in the relationship - first few dates???

Think you've covered everything Loux.

Drama and pity play all covered by above.

Only thing I could think of is addictions, that could be covered by Hiding/secretive as you wont find out, until well into the relationship.

Good post.


Narc.

The way we feel in their presence:

Anxious to please

FEarful of consequences of not pleasing

Trying to fix them

Like a child whose parent doesn't approve of them

Assuming the blame for the negative parts of the relationship

Thinking we can "make it better' if we will just BE better.

Constantly thinking about the R/S or the partner

Constantly trying to think of what we can do to make it better.

Overlooking faults

Afraid to mention our feelings or thoughts

Feeling Inferior

That they are our life, our ONLY life

That we would "die" without them

Keeping up a "pretence" in public that "everything is all right" when we know it isn't.

Feeling that our reality doesn't mesh with their "reality"

Feeling stupid for putting up with "this" R/S

Feeling powerless to effect the relationship

Feeling angry at their unfairness but not DOING anything about it out of fear.

Feeling diminished/denigrated

Feeling shame that they treat you so badly and value you so little

Feeling envy of the way the treat others but not you

Wondering why you put up with this

Wanting to leave the R/S but not having the strength to do it

Feeling controlled

Feeling boxed in, helpless

The R/s becomes the CENTER of your life, your entire life. Your only life.

Thanks Narc - good point about addictions. Addicts ARE very good at hiding.

Ox - I loved your post on the other thread about "CONTROLLING PARENT MODE" - dismissing your opinions, projecting how 'critical' you are of other people ... things that generally are designed to make the other person feel bad about themselves.

Someone who cares for or loves you IS NOT going to TRY to make you feel bad about yourself.


On the flip side -

Early on - my N did not do this. Just the opposite, he went out of his way to put me on a pedastle:


"You're so smart"

"You have a very unique way of seeing things"

"You make me feel so good about myself"

"I wonder if you know how much I need you"

"You're beautiful"

"I am in awe that I even get to be with you"

"You were the one I never could seem to get"

"I've thought about you for 15 years"

"I've always felt that you were the love of my life"



THESE WERE ALL WITHIN THE FIRST FEW WEEKS - 3 to 4 - OF THE RELATIONSHIP!


*new one* 12) If it seems too good to be true, It probably IS - beware of those that go out of their way to shower (extreme) you with compliments, gifts, attention, etc... Someone sincere doesn't have to manipulate in order to endear you.

loux

Ox - I loved your post on the other thread about "CONTROLLING PARENT MODE"

Where's this post?

The hiding thing, yah. The n's I knew are sort of "hard to catch" or "pin down" with specific committments. I thought this was just a shy thing, but they always seem to have you at arm's length.

but what things will you be looking for EARLY in the relationship - first few dates???

He told me how beautiful i was the second he met me
Wanted to make out with me a half hour after meeting
Told me how perfect i was
Opened up right away... Told me his life story immediately

I could go on and on... these are just a few...

Dear Loux,

Those loving comments CAN be true though---my late husband and I both felt that we had gotten the "best of the deal" with each other.

He said everyone of those things to me when we did get together after 20+ years of close friendship which was not sexual. (though there was always attraction there but he was married and I woujld never cross that line at all)

It WAS wonderful, and I have about 30 letters he wrote me in a notebook and when I feell really "unloveable" I get them out and read them over.

WE had the best of the N R/S but neither of us was an N! so we didn't have the D & D. My son D used to "laugh at the old folks" sitting in the living room in the evenings, holding hands while we watched TV or separately read books, or just the way we looked at each other. The contentment was there, the safety was there, the spark was still there.

After the P-XBF, I realized if I can't have THAT again, don't want anything. My psych doc said I was "addicted" to it, and that is why I fell for the P-XBF and I think she was right---I was just vulnerable and leaped before I looked---but will do my best not to do that again! Single is OK. One is a WHOLE NUMBER, not just 1/2 of 2.

What concerns me is the cynical point of view that I feel when I read this stuff. The compliments and such. I mean, where do you draw the line with true compliments vs. bullshit? I have a hard time with that one. The problem for me is, I want to be able to spot an N - but I also don't want to be so bitter and cynical that I think every nice guy is one. Not sure if that makes sense...

My exN never said my thoughts and complaints about him weren't true. He was quick to apologize. He didn't say a cruel word to me EVER.

So there are many sides to this stuff.

What he DID do was act in a fashion that was dismissive. He didn't HEAR ME when I spoke. He didn't make appropriate changes to keep me (so, as the codependent I am, I kept trying). He would promise me he would do something, then have every excuse in the book. He also played the "I'll be home in an hour" game after the first couple of years. I chalked it up to him being a "silly boy" who had poor time management skills...

Again, I don't know if it's completely cut and dry. I still say that it took a few years for that mask to start falling off. The covert ones are tough...

Knoxy,

You are so RIGHT ON--"The covert ones are hard to spot"

Which is where you have to kind of watch what they DO vs. what the SAY.

That I think is where the "gut instinct" comes into play---it is that thing you can't quite "put a finger on"---but you know there is a predator in the vacinity--something doesn't add up some how, but you aren't sure WHY.

So at that POINT you have to start LOOKING hard for the camo that covers the predator.

If somehow you sense it doesn't "feel right" check it out.

OxDrover wrote:Knoxy,

You are so RIGHT ON--"The covert ones are hard to spot"

Which is where you have to kind of watch what they DO vs. what the SAY.

That I think is where the "gut instinct" comes into play---it is that thing you can't quite "put a finger on"---but you know there is a predator in the vacinity--something doesn't add up some how, but you aren't sure WHY.

So at that POINT you have to start LOOKING hard for the camo that covers the predator.

If somehow you sense it doesn't "feel right" check it out.

Yeah. But I get frustrated because he "did" everything pretty much okay for years. I think it was a good three or four years in before I started noticing the lies.

Maybe I wasn't looking... But man. How sad is it that now I'm doomed to always be looking for lies. :(

Hey there Knox,

I understand what you are saying and I too get bogged down with the thought of having to be 'hypervigilant' about such things... at times it seems like that's no way to live - paranoid-like.

But I think it's more about just being aware and attuned to things that just don't feel right and not dismissing them... rather than outright LOOKING / hunting for lies around every corner = seeking them out. If they aren't there, they aren't there - if they are, I am not going to excuse or ignore it. (Does that make any sense?? Not sure if the way I presented it is confusing or clarifying, LOL.)

Truth be told, I didn't have to look far. There was so much that I ignored, or dismissed as 'coincidence' or situational.

There were little white lies he told his ex wife on the phone in my presence - difference is now, I know that if someone were to do this to someone else (even if not in right in front of me), I also recognize that they could do that TO me at some point down the road.

He hid the truth from alot of people - including his own parents. They knew we were dating, but they did not know we were planning marriage. He hid that from everyone, but me. I went along b/c I realized it WOULD sound nuts for him to be planning marriage so soon.

Re: the compliments - that's why i put 'shower' and 'extreme' in there. When it gets to the point where it feels too good to be true, then most times it is. He didn't over-do it immediately, but once he found that i responded to them and that I 'let down the wall' more with them, the more the compliments started flooding in. Weird thing is... with other men and in previous 'dating' scenerios... if the guy came on too strong, with too many compliments (IOW 'trying too hard')... I backed off, BIG TIME. I felt I was being manipulated. With N, I didn't feel like I was being manipulated at the time - I felt I knew him, and I GAVE him trust rather than his earning it b/c of our past history of aquaintance in college.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize that all of my instincts were there and right on with other men for the past 8 to 10 years. I set appropriate boundaries. I got out when any of the stuff I mentioned above happened. Even in a previous relationship with an OVERT N - I got out as soon as the mask came off, and haven't looked back since. He was ridiculous! My reaction to that r/s and this one was completely different. This N knocked me for a loop. As my counselor says "he flew in under the radar b/c of our past relationship". Still - past history or not - I don't understand WHY I was so willing to make exceptions for this guy that I would not allow for others?? Why did I bend so much and loosen my boundaries so much for THIS guy?? The only explanation I can come up with is - I felt the familiarity of N behavior even though his was 'stealth' or 'covert'... I was drawn to the familiarity of it without recognizing just how toxic it/he was BECAUSE he hid it so well... until it was too late. In the process, I dismissed, overlooked or made excuses for alot of things that I WILL NOT overlook in future relationships.

Also Knox, one of the differences between our situations is - YOU DID set appropriate boundaries and got out when you found out the truth. I did too eventually - once the truth was evident (saw proof with my own eyes) - but until that point, I allowed him to string me along for 4 months knowing in my gut that something was not right, listening to excuses and even making them for him. My gut was telling me he was lying, but I 'played along'. I just didn't want to believe my 'inner voice'. I wanted to believe every word; every lie. I allowed him to lie to me... I enabled him to. You didn't. You stood your ground and would not accept such behavior. You are so much stronger than you realize.


loux

Matilda,

WELL PUT!!!

Why do we get the emotiocon instead of a number eight? 8 sometimes and not others?

Crazyer server

OxDrover wrote:He said everyone of those things to me when we did get together after 20+ years of close friendship which was not sexual.

Ox,

How soon - after you two DID start 'dating'- did he start saying all these things to you?

How long was your official courtship (not counting friendship)??

loux

Oh, don't let me fool you. I enabled my share. Big time. It just took years for those behaviors to rear their head.

I didn't see blatant integrity issues until about three years in. When I caught him in his first lie.

He was good. VERY GOOD.

But I enabled him by moving my boundaries. I told him after that first lie - "If you lie to me again - you are gone." Well, that boundary moved.

The only HUGE boundary was infidelity. I knew he'd never hit me and he never spoke poorly to me - so I never had those issues to contend with.

I certainly don't have a clean side of the street in the boundary department. Don't let my toughness fool you. When I found out about the other woman - I was done. But I'd swallowed quite a bit before that.

The difference is - it took a good 3+ years to start to see the little lies - little things starting to not add up... etc. By then, I was in hook line and sinker. I spent the rest of my days wondering where the hell my boyfriend went...

So frustrating.

But I hear you. I guess I'm just having a bad day and feeling a little defeated. Like it's more than having to protect ourselves, it's being hyper vigilant - like I'll be looking for clues for the rest of my life with any man who I decide to let in again.

Ugh. Poopy.

Thanks for the clarification. :)

OxDrover wrote:Matilda,

WELL PUT!!!

Why do we get the emotiocon instead of a number eight? 8 sometimes and not others?

Crazyer server

if you type and 8 and then immediately a ) you will get the smiley figure... if you put an 8 then a space between it and the ) - it will not appear.

Great thread Loux!!!

I can't add much cause you guys have it all rapped up I think.. :) ....

I remember in the beginning of this Journey I wrote down a list in my journal of all the nasty, mean, horrible things that ExN had done to me over the years to remind myself of what I didn't miss!!! I was shocked when I was finished it!! It was pages long and when I needed reminding of what I would never again accept into my life I used to read that list out loudly in front of the Mirror....

Now I have a list of all the things I want/have in my life and this is it:

Stability for my children

fun and humour

love

good friends

Truthfulness

good health

career and personal goals

I'm not wanting to venture out in to the World of dating again so thats not on my list but if I ever choose to I will be armed with the knowledge I have gained from this wonderful place and probably scare every guy off that so much as glances twice at me!! LOL... Anyway if I do go there one day he will need to be something pretty special and I might just ship him off to the closest Psychitrist to have him formally assessed to ensure he is definitely NOT an N of P... Yepppp that should work!!! LOL

and I might just ship him off to the closest Psychitrist to have him formally assessed to ensure he is definitely NOT an N of P

what a GREAT idea!! LOL.

Hi Lukky,

With the comprehensive list, any chance of making this a sticky?


Narc.

Hi Narc....

We are hoping to post a sticky in the next few days on this Topic...Currently building up the links and thanks for suggesting this...Big one for everyone !!! Awesome suggestion !!!

Thanks

Lukky....

Hi Lukky,


Thanks.

Narc.

bumping for newbies


What behaviors are YOU willing to accept?

What behaviors are you NOT willing to accept??


When you start creating your 'list', you are starting to take back your power.


loux

loux loux,

you experience was exactly like mine. I had been on this board previously w/ another N and was just nearly recovered when hit by N2. I think you mentioned in another post to me that i would begin to pick up on n traits in men and screen them out. Problem is my antennas are on full alert for this. N2 was just as you described - didn't come on strong - we were friends, i actually enjoyed being with him so much, I was the first one to blurt out I love you" but it was just because I loved him so much as a person - he was fun and great to be with - things slowly escalated from there but then turned obsessive so i was in the dance too... when i met him i told him i just wanted friends and fun and he said he wanted the same thing - yeah right - this n knows how to worm his way in and did.

so my story of my second n sounds much like yours - very stealth like. i thought i knew the signs of N but.... the first N was very toothy, blonde, smiley, flirty and well this one, I hate to say it was lucky to have me - im not conceited or anything but I thought he was doing pretty well to be with me.