Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Tilda, that's it for me too.............couldn't have said it any better...........BRAVO GIRL.....................YOU'RE AWESOME......T.T.F.N. Theresa

Good evening, everyone.

After the N experieNce, it is difficult sometimes to determine what foibles are acceptable and which are not. (After cheating and lying, violence and such.)

As people get older, they get habits and neuroses. What is OK and what is not??? It is the sublte stuff that makes us wary.

So what I have figured out thus far is that the most important thing is that words and actions match. I will accept no disconnect in this regard. Words must match action or you are out the door...as a partner and as a friend.

That's my share. Good to see you all.

MB

Some days, I think I haven't moved forward enough. I have been in nc with my exnph for over 2 and a half years. Last week though, I had a situation that I handled that maybe in the past I would not have set boundaries for this kind of behavior. A friend of mine tried to set me up with her widowed cousin. I haven't been on a date since I left exnp.I am 53. So, she asked me if she could give him my phone number at home and at work. I said yes. I had met him twice before. A nice , decent family man-I thought. I felt absolutely nothing but I am so cautious now that I do not want to feel anything in the beginning after my np experience where I saw shooting stars within minutes of meeting him!!!Well, last week, he called here 20 times in one day-yes, 20 times. I was horrified and repulsed by that. I didn't answer one call because they started at 8 a.m. while I was still sleeping and I was mad about that. In any case, eventually during the week when he called, I answered the phone and told him never to call me again. I smelled the rat and I acted.
Go figure, my first experience post P and look what I get and I didn't even pick him.

Right on Maltida, the allow and won't allow is simply AWESOME, a GREAT way to liveand very simple to! Love it, love you and thank you...a great recipt for LIFE.

sweetcaroline51 wrote:Some days, I think I haven't moved forward enough. I have been in nc with my exnph for over 2 and a half years. Last week though, I had a situation that I handled that maybe in the past I would not have set boundaries for this kind of behavior. A friend of mine tried to set me up with her widowed cousin. I haven't been on a date since I left exnp.I am 53. So, she asked me if she could give him my phone number at home and at work. I said yes. I had met him twice before. A nice , decent family man-I thought. I felt absolutely nothing but I am so cautious now that I do not want to feel anything in the beginning after my np experience where I saw shooting stars within minutes of meeting him!!!Well, last week, he called here 20 times in one day-yes, 20 times. I was horrified and repulsed by that. I didn't answer one call because they started at 8 a.m. while I was still sleeping and I was mad about that. In any case, eventually during the week when he called, I answered the phone and told him never to call me again. I smelled the rat and I acted.
Go figure, my first experience post P and look what I get and I didn't even pick him.

OMG.

20 times in one day?

Wowza!

I'm proud of you for nipping that one in the bud.

I'm so scared of dating. I have wee little crush right now and I'm watching EVERY move he makes. I'm having a hard time with letting go and enjoying the moment - and keeping my eyes open.

This is a great thread. ;)

sweetcaroline51 wrote:In any case, eventually during the week when he called, I answered the phone and told him never to call me again. I smelled the rat and I acted.

congrats! your N radar is working!!

Go figure, my first experience post P and look what I get and I didn't even pick him.

You could look at it that way (negatively)... or you could look at it as YOU didn't pick HIM (positive way) - knowing what you know now, if you hadn't been set up... would you have picked him for yourself??? I don't think so!


You are doing great Caroline - don't doubt that

loux

This list really makes it crystal clear. Some of it doesn't apply because she is my step mom and not my partner. But, wow! A lot of it does apply!

I remember how hard I used to try to please her. One time when she and my dad went away for a weekend I cleaned the entire house while taking care of my three little brothers and farm chores. I didn't get a, "Good job!" or a, "Wow! You even mopped!" or anything.

I used to try to put on that happy face, like everything was okay. The day after my 17th b-day I remember I lost it in first period. For my birthday we had gone to the restaurant she wanted where she got drunk and then critisized my driving all the way home. I just started crying in the middle of class as I was thinking about the previous night and I felt I had to hide it. Like it was shameful to say that I was feeling like crap because my step mom was psycho. I bottled it all up and had ulcers by the time I was 19.

Anxious to please

FEarful of consequences of not pleasing

Trying to fix them

Like a child whose parent doesn't approve of them

Assuming the blame for the negative parts of the relationship

Thinking we can "make it better' if we will just BE better.

Constantly thinking about the R/S or the partner

Constantly trying to think of what we can do to make it better.

Overlooking faults

Afraid to mention our feelings or thoughts

Feeling Inferior

That they are our life, our ONLY life

That we would "die" without them

Keeping up a "pretence" in public that "everything is all right" when we know it isn't.

Feeling that our reality doesn't mesh with their "reality"

Feeling stupid for putting up with "this" R/S

Feeling powerless to effect the relationship

Feeling angry at their unfairness but not DOING anything about it out of fear.

Feeling diminished/denigrated

Feeling shame that they treat you so badly and value you so little

Feeling envy of the way the treat others but not you

Wondering why you put up with this

Wanting to leave the R/S but not having the strength to do it

Feeling controlled

Feeling boxed in, helpless

compilation of everything contributed so far; a new entry (#13); and some added info. re: boundaries:


1) If they lie - they are out the door.

2) if they cheat - they are out the door, and that door is closed forever.

3) If they 'bad mouth'/ name-call all of their ex's - end it there b/c they will do the same to me at some point down the road!

4) If they do not accept responsibility / accountability for their own actions or co-creation in a bad situation (everyone else's fault) - they are out.

5) If they want me to 'fix' them - I'm not even opening the door in the first place because, YOU CANNOT FIX OTHER PEOPLE! That is THEIR responsibility!

6) arrogant / entitled - I've never liked arrogance to begin with.

7) disrespectful - which really includes all of the above but also how they treat other people in general, and in casual situations. i.e. if make fun of others to make themselves feel or look better (pointing out others physical flaws, etc..) - and/or - If they are mean, vile, demanding, etc.. of someone they don't know (wait staff, clerks, etc...)- just imagine how comfortable they would be doing this to someone they DO know.



AREAS of extreme caution:

8 ) when they describe how 'they use to be' "bad"/a player/user - believe they are still the same until proven otherwise = when actions are consistently proven to match the words.

9) if something about them makes me feel uneasy, THERE IS A REASON - listen to my instincts rather than dismiss them or try to 'make' that person fit some mold i've created for them in order to see good. I have a tendency to only want to see the good.

10) If I get weak in the knees / feel butterflies - I tend to ignore red flags and weaken my boundaries. Want to maintain awareness so that I can mantain healthy boundaries.

11 ) if they are in 'hiding', then they are USUALLY also hiding something about themselves from you! - One area that made me feel uneasy, was the lengths he would go to to 'hide' from his ex's - not publishing his name in the phone book; intentionally not telling his ex when he switched jobs and where he was working even though it would affect health insurance coverage for their children; had two cell phones - one for use with everyone else and the other just for correspondance with the ex's; wouldn't give the names of the ex's b/c he learned with ex wife #2 that they will band together to 'gang up on him'. He NEVER told me the last names of his two ex wives... and went to GREAT lengths so that I wouldn't find out OW's name b/c he was affraid we would all 'clue' each other in. PARANOID BEHAVIOR.

12) If it seems too good to be true, It probably IS - beware of those that go out of their way to shower (extreme) you with compliments, gifts, attention, etc... Someone sincere doesn't have to manipulate in order to endear you. Some 'showering' is normal at the beginning of a r/s, but the key word is 'extreme'.

13 ) Pressure - If I feel any pressure whatsoever, be it to adopt their 'way of thinking'/if they are ADAMANT that I agree with them re: something (not comfortable with agreeing to disagree) or to do something that my internal voice is telling me I am not ready for; then I will greatly scale back my involvement with them. This one kind of goes along with rule # 9 re: listening to your intuition which IS our internal ALARM system. But there were many times in the r/s with exN, and the couple of people I've dated since, where I felt some sort of 'pressure' to be something I wasn't; or to be at a certain 'place' I wasn't. People who apply pressure are only concerned with one thing - getting what THEY want. It has NOTHING to do with concern for your best interest.





The way we feel in their presence:

Anxious to please

Fearful of consequences of not pleasing

Trying to fix them

Like a child whose parent doesn't approve of them

Assuming the blame for the negative parts of the relationship

Thinking we can "make it better' if we will just BE better.

Constantly thinking about the R/S or the partner

Constantly trying to think of what we can do to make it better.

Overlooking faults

Afraid to mention our feelings or thoughts

Feeling Inferior

That they are our life, our ONLY life

That we would "die" without them

Keeping up a "pretence" in public that "everything is all right" when we know it isn't.

Feeling that our reality doesn't mesh with their "reality"

Feeling stupid for putting up with "this" R/S

Feeling powerless to effect the relationship

Feeling angry at their unfairness but not DOING anything about it out of fear.

Feeling diminished/denigrated

Feeling shame that they treat you so badly and value you so little

Feeling envy of the way they treat others but not you

Wondering why you put up with this

Wanting to leave the R/S but not having the strength to do it

Feeling controlled

Feeling boxed in, helpless

The R/s becomes the CENTER of your life, your entire life. Your only life.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The things I won't allow in my life:

1) violence towards people or property.

2) malicious gossip

3) lies (or using myself or family to "hide" a lie - ie: people saying they were with myself and husband, when they were out having an affair on spouse etc)

4) religious bigotry

5) racism

6) unneccessary drama (you know people who come round cos they are having troubles, but they do nothing about it, and every single time you see them they keep on about the same old problem, then they get mad at you if you dare to point that out to them...i've had a few of these energy suckers in my life...i'm better at nipping it in the bud now ...I value my time to much anymore to be drained by professional drama queens)

7) intrusions or invasive behaviors or conversation (or energy)

8 ) economic prejudice (snobbery)

9) perverse or disrespectful behavior (I'm talking about using my puter for porn, or expressing themselves in inappropriate lude behaviors- making come ons etc..using my phone to call secret lovers etc)

and
10) hate or abuse.


the things I will allow or welcome into my life are:

1) love

2) creativity

3) lightness and fun

4) respect and good manners

5) spirited balanced discussion (where everyone is heard)

6) abundance

7) good health

8 ) education (open to learning)

9) compassion and truth

10) authentic peace
_________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BOUNDARIES

There are four types of boundaries that develop in human beings: physical, sexual, emotional and spiritual. Physical and sexual boundaries are external, while emotional and spiritual ones are internal mechanisms. Each of these may be characterized by a position statement.



Physical boundaries: I have the right to determine when, where, how, and who is going to touch me. I have the right to determine how close someone is going to stand next to me.



Sexual boundaries: I have the right to determine with whom, where, when and how I am going to be sexual with someone.



Emotional boundaries: What I think or feel or do or don't do is more about me than it is about you. Conversely, what you think and feel or do or don't do is more about you than it is about me.



Spiritual boundaries: I have the right to think and believe as I do. I need only face the consequences of my thinking.






Boundaries may be visualized as an inverted bell jar that exists around a person. It is flexible and permeable. For instance, if I choose to hug someone, I choose to allow them into my physical boundary, as they choose to let me into theirs. If I choose to be sexual with someone, I choose to let them into my physical and sexual boundaries. If I choose to share my deepest feelings, I allow a person to enter my emotional boundary.



Allowing a person access to ourselves, inside our boundaries, is a gesture of trust and intimacy. We make ourselves vulnerable. We can either experience affirmation or be wounded to the core. Boundaries offer protection from the emotional or physical assaults of others.



Healthy boundaries though not perfect, allow a person to experience a comfortable interdependence with other people, resulting in generally functional relationships and positive self-regard.



Damaged boundaries operate inconsistently and often dysfunctionally. They are the result of mixed messages and abuse, and are usually related to abusive relationships in the individual's family of origin and/or relationships of choice.



Walls protect the person who has constructed them but do not let anything in or out. This person lives in a state of loneliness, possibly protected from the assaults of others, but also prevented from establishing trusting and intimate relationships. People with walled boundaries have generally been deeply hurt by others and have erected barriers to prevent being hurt again by others' actions, thoughts and feelings.



No boundaries is the opposite extreme from walled ones. A person with no boundaries is unable to prevent unwanted intrusions and may be unaware that it is possible to do so.



At the very least, sexual assault and abuse are violations of a person's boundaries. People with healthy boundaries can have them damaged during assaults. Sexual assaults have repercussions on all levels of a person's boundary system. It is for this reason that healing from sexual assault and abuse is a slow and painful process.





SIGNS OF HEALTHY BOUNDARIES

Appropriate trust

Revealing a little of yourself at a time, then checking to see how the other person responds to your sharing

Moving step by step into intimacy

Putting a new acquaintanceship on hold until you check for compatibility

Deciding whether a potential relationship will be good for you

Staying focused on your own growth and recovery

Weighing the consequence before acting on sexual impulse

Being sexual when you want to be sexual-- not b/c of pressure of any kind

Maintaining personal values despite what others want

Noticing when someone else displays inappropriate boundaries

Noticing when someone invades your boundaries

Saying "NO" to food, gifts, touch, sex you don't want

Asking a person before touching them

Respect for others--not taking advantage of someone's generosity

Self-respect--not giving too much in hope that someone will like you

Not allowing someone to take advantage of your generosity

Trusting your own decisions

Defining your truth, as you see it

Knowing who you are and what you want

Recognizing that friends and partners are not mind-readers

Clearly communicating your wants and needs (and recognizing that you may be turned down, but you can ask)

Becoming your own loving parent

Talking to yourself with gentleness, humor, love and respect
__________________________________________________________________________________________________


loux

louxloux wrote:compilation of everything contributed so far; a new entry (#13); and some added info. re: boundaries:


1) If they lie - they are out the door.

2) if they cheat - they are out the door, and that door is closed forever.

3) If they 'bad mouth'/ name-call all of their ex's - end it there b/c they will do the same to me at some point down the road!

4) If they do not accept responsibility / accountability for their own actions or co-creation in a bad situation (everyone else's fault) - they are out.

5) If they want me to 'fix' them - I'm not even opening the door in the first place because, YOU CANNOT FIX OTHER PEOPLE! That is THEIR responsibility!

6) arrogant / entitled - I've never liked arrogance to begin with.

7) disrespectful - which really includes all of the above but also how they treat other people in general, and in casual situations. i.e. if make fun of others to make themselves feel or look better (pointing out others physical flaws, etc..) - and/or - If they are mean, vile, demanding, etc.. of someone they don't know (wait staff, clerks, etc...)- just imagine how comfortable they would be doing this to someone they DO know.



AREAS of extreme caution:

8 ) when they describe how 'they use to be' "bad"/a player/user - believe they are still the same until proven otherwise = when actions are consistently proven to match the words.

9) if something about them makes me feel uneasy, THERE IS A REASON - listen to my instincts rather than dismiss them or try to 'make' that person fit some mold i've created for them in order to see good. I have a tendency to only want to see the good.

10) If I get weak in the knees / feel butterflies - I tend to ignore red flags and weaken my boundaries. Want to maintain awareness so that I can mantain healthy boundaries.

11 ) if they are in 'hiding', then they are USUALLY also hiding something about themselves from you! - One area that made me feel uneasy, was the lengths he would go to to 'hide' from his ex's - not publishing his name in the phone book; intentionally not telling his ex when he switched jobs and where he was working even though it would affect health insurance coverage for their children; had two cell phones - one for use with everyone else and the other just for correspondance with the ex's; wouldn't give the names of the ex's b/c he learned with ex wife #2 that they will band together to 'gang up on him'. He NEVER told me the last names of his two ex wives... and went to GREAT lengths so that I wouldn't find out OW's name b/c he was affraid we would all 'clue' each other in. PARANOID BEHAVIOR.

12) If it seems too good to be true, It probably IS - beware of those that go out of their way to shower (extreme) you with compliments, gifts, attention, etc... Someone sincere doesn't have to manipulate in order to endear you. Some 'showering' is normal at the beginning of a r/s, but the key word is 'extreme'.

13 ) Pressure - If I feel any pressure whatsoever, be it to adopt their 'way of thinking'/if they are ADAMANT that I agree with them re: something (not comfortable with agreeing to disagree) or to do something that my internal voice is telling me I am not ready for; then I will greatly scale back my involvement with them. This one kind of goes along with rule # 9 re: listening to your intuition which IS our internal ALARM system. But there were many times in the r/s with exN, and the couple of people I've dated since, where I felt some sort of 'pressure' to be something I wasn't; or to be at a certain 'place' I wasn't. People who apply pressure are only concerned with one thing - getting what THEY want. It has NOTHING to do with concern for your best interest.





The way we feel in their presence:

Anxious to please

Fearful of consequences of not pleasing

Trying to fix them

Like a child whose parent doesn't approve of them

Assuming the blame for the negative parts of the relationship

Thinking we can "make it better' if we will just BE better.

Constantly thinking about the R/S or the partner

Constantly trying to think of what we can do to make it better.

Overlooking faults

Afraid to mention our feelings or thoughts

Feeling Inferior

That they are our life, our ONLY life

That we would "die" without them

Keeping up a "pretence" in public that "everything is all right" when we know it isn't.

Feeling that our reality doesn't mesh with their "reality"

Feeling stupid for putting up with "this" R/S

Feeling powerless to effect the relationship

Feeling angry at their unfairness but not DOING anything about it out of fear.

Feeling diminished/denigrated

Feeling shame that they treat you so badly and value you so little

Feeling envy of the way they treat others but not you

Wondering why you put up with this

Wanting to leave the R/S but not having the strength to do it

Feeling controlled

Feeling boxed in, helpless

The R/s becomes the CENTER of your life, your entire life. Your only life.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The things I won't allow in my life:

1) violence towards people or property.

2) malicious gossip

3) lies (or using myself or family to "hide" a lie - ie: people saying they were with myself and husband, when they were out having an affair on spouse etc)

4) religious bigotry

5) racism

6) unneccessary drama (you know people who come round cos they are having troubles, but they do nothing about it, and every single time you see them they keep on about the same old problem, then they get mad at you if you dare to point that out to them...i've had a few of these energy suckers in my life...i'm better at nipping it in the bud now ...I value my time to much anymore to be drained by professional drama queens)

7) intrusions or invasive behaviors or conversation (or energy)

8 ) economic prejudice (snobbery)

9) perverse or disrespectful behavior (I'm talking about using my puter for porn, or expressing themselves in inappropriate lude behaviors- making come ons etc..using my phone to call secret lovers etc)

and
10) hate or abuse.


the things I will allow or welcome into my life are:

1) love

2) creativity

3) lightness and fun

4) respect and good manners

5) spirited balanced discussion (where everyone is heard)

6) abundance

7) good health

8 ) education (open to learning)

9) compassion and truth

10) authentic peace
_________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BOUNDARIES

There are four types of boundaries that develop in human beings: physical, sexual, emotional and spiritual. Physical and sexual boundaries are external, while emotional and spiritual ones are internal mechanisms. Each of these may be characterized by a position statement.



Physical boundaries: I have the right to determine when, where, how, and who is going to touch me. I have the right to determine how close someone is going to stand next to me.



Sexual boundaries: I have the right to determine with whom, where, when and how I am going to be sexual with someone.



Emotional boundaries: What I think or feel or do or don't do is more about me than it is about you. Conversely, what you think and feel or do or don't do is more about you than it is about me.



Spiritual boundaries: I have the right to think and believe as I do. I need only face the consequences of my thinking.






Boundaries may be visualized as an inverted bell jar that exists around a person. It is flexible and permeable. For instance, if I choose to hug someone, I choose to allow them into my physical boundary, as they choose to let me into theirs. If I choose to be sexual with someone, I choose to let them into my physical and sexual boundaries. If I choose to share my deepest feelings, I allow a person to enter my emotional boundary.



Allowing a person access to ourselves, inside our boundaries, is a gesture of trust and intimacy. We make ourselves vulnerable. We can either experience affirmation or be wounded to the core. Boundaries offer protection from the emotional or physical assaults of others.



Healthy boundaries though not perfect, allow a person to experience a comfortable interdependence with other people, resulting in generally functional relationships and positive self-regard.



Damaged boundaries operate inconsistently and often dysfunctionally. They are the result of mixed messages and abuse, and are usually related to abusive relationships in the individual's family of origin and/or relationships of choice.



Walls protect the person who has constructed them but do not let anything in or out. This person lives in a state of loneliness, possibly protected from the assaults of others, but also prevented from establishing trusting and intimate relationships. People with walled boundaries have generally been deeply hurt by others and have erected barriers to prevent being hurt again by others' actions, thoughts and feelings.



No boundaries is the opposite extreme from walled ones. A person with no boundaries is unable to prevent unwanted intrusions and may be unaware that it is possible to do so.



At the very least, sexual assault and abuse are violations of a person's boundaries. People with healthy boundaries can have them damaged during assaults. Sexual assaults have repercussions on all levels of a person's boundary system. It is for this reason that healing from sexual assault and abuse is a slow and painful process.





SIGNS OF HEALTHY BOUNDARIES

Appropriate trust

Revealing a little of yourself at a time, then checking to see how the other person responds to your sharing

Moving step by step into intimacy

Putting a new acquaintanceship on hold until you check for compatibility

Deciding whether a potential relationship will be good for you

Staying focused on your own growth and recovery

Weighing the consequence before acting on sexual impulse

Being sexual when you want to be sexual-- not b/c of pressure of any kind

Maintaining personal values despite what others want

Noticing when someone else displays inappropriate boundaries

Noticing when someone invades your boundaries

Saying "NO" to food, gifts, touch, sex you don't want

Asking a person before touching them

Respect for others--not taking advantage of someone's generosity

Self-respect--not giving too much in hope that someone will like you

Not allowing someone to take advantage of your generosity

Trusting your own decisions

Defining your truth, as you see it

Knowing who you are and what you want

Recognizing that friends and partners are not mind-readers

Clearly communicating your wants and needs (and recognizing that you may be turned down, but you can ask)

Becoming your own loving parent

Talking to yourself with gentleness, humor, love and respect
__________________________________________________________________________________________________


loux

went researching to find this thread to re-review for myself (contemplating dipping in the dating pool again and just wanted to review again)... then thought newbies might get something out of it, so bumping for everyone

Hey Loux

If its ok with you, will add this thread, when everyone has seen it to the Way it is forum, to save you having to search for it.

Its a fantastic thread, thanks for bumping it, and good luck with the dating, am contemplating the same thing myself, and will have a good read of these.

x

Great thread!!! Thank you so much for bumping this----wish I had seen it long ago! LOL!

Maybe I have missed this one:

The pressure to divulge personal info/"share secrets" etc....

My N loved these glorified Truth or Dare mindgames. He'd start by making some "confession" from his past, then encourage me to do the same (early in our relationship when trust was still in the making)

He'd then use this info against me at a later time. When I got irked, he'd say, "I was just kidding!", knowing FULL WELL what he did. Fortuanately, I didn't completely spill my guts.

Even though I was uncomforable doing this, I ignored the red flag and did it anyway. Oh, well. Won't happen again!

This is a really good post and an interesting one.

I believe boundaries is my secret to protecting myself from the N experience ever happening again and also going with what my gut instinct has to say rather than my head.

It has served me well over the months when sorting out genuine people from slippery snakes in the grass (be it with women or men) and on every level, friends, work colleagues, men I bump into socially, women I bump into socially.

People who aren't straight down the line. What I mean is that you say what you mean and you mean what you say... if someone asks a question of me I will tell the truth and if I don't want to answer the question I will say so. This is a big issue for me... conversation has to be genuine. Games are out of the question and plays for attention I simply won't tolerate -- if you need my attention you ask for it directly, don't keep me guessing, if I'm guessing I assume the worst and I'm not putting myself through that.

This is an interesting thread with lots of good thoughts.

The one that stands out for me, the biggest red flag of my behavior I learned through the whole N experience, is that I projected. So, for instance, the N would say something I didn't quite understand and I would fill in the blanks. Of course, by filling in the blanks, I filled them in with why I would say that, why I would do that, making his statement or behavior okay. If I don't understand something, I am going to make efforts in the future to ask for clarification. One can really never get to know another person when they don't get answers to their satisfaction, and in the past, I was too guilty of letting things slide.

Right now, I realize that it is me that needs to clean up my own house and I am working on that. I believe when I am recovered enough, should I be ready to date, one of the signs I am ready to date is I won't be hyper vigilant. Like Caroline, I will simply recognize unacceptable behavior and that will be that.

I think it will boil down to trusting myself, trusting my intuition. Having the confidence and belief in myself to do the right thing by me at all times even if I do become emotionally invested in another person. That is going to be tough. I do hope I pass the test if it comes my way. If I don't that's okay too because I will know I have more learning to do.

Reveuse wrote:The hiding thing, yah. The n's I knew are sort of "hard to catch" or "pin down" with specific committments. I thought this was just a shy thing, but they always seem to have you at arm's length.

This is how my N described himself and his interactions with people, he actually said "I hold all people at an arm's length."

Cassi wrote:Hey Loux

If its ok with you, will add this thread, when everyone has seen it to the Way it is forum, to save you having to search for it.

Its a fantastic thread, thanks for bumping it, and good luck with the dating, am contemplating the same thing myself, and will have a good read of these.

x

That would be great! It was tedious looking for it, lol. Hope it is as helpful for others as it has been for me re: defining what I will and will not accept; and what things will cause me to pause and really look at the overall picture.

loux

Its a fantastic thread Loux, thanks for taking the trouble to find it - its going to help alot of people. We can all do with reading this. :D