Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

Baby-kay,

I understand..I have been NC with my mom so I can understand not wanting to allow the N's in your life because they cause pain. I am sorry for what you are going through with your son as well. I know that must be hard to also have a son who turned out like your mom. It's sad how their ends up being many N's in a family that has an N... Like I have an N GP and although I am not sure if my sister is an N or not yet she seems self-abosrbed and self-medicating with alcohol. It scares me...

My nMom was always very big on gifts, but upon looking back, there was always a pattern:

1. The gifts were obviously her discards (worn clothes, jewelry she didn't care about anymore, freebies from the makeup counter, new clothes with tags that had never seen the light of day, obviously purchased in her size)

2. A duplicate of something she already had, and LOVED, so of course, I would LOVE it, too

3. Something she had purchased on an impulse shopping spree for herself (she has a shopping addiction as well) and had to hide from my father as having "really been a gift for me"

4. Something meant for me, but meant for the "me" she wanted me to be, i.e., clothes in a style that she liked, but which I would never wear, or a size too small (encouraging me to lose weight).

This forum made me laugh remembering the times we would arrive for the holidays, and she would tell me all the kids' gifts were upstairs in the attic. You see, we had to go wrap them. She'd just toss random stuff in the attic all year long, stuff that made no sense in some cases, and we were supposed to go up there and wrap them, guessing what was for who. She would actually come right out and admit that she'd forgotten even buying something - ha ha! She has so much money to blow, the gift is nothing, just a trinket .... but wow, were the kids and we supposed to ooh and aah and go THANKS, GRANDMOM through the entire trip.

Heaven forbid the kids wanted to play with something there in her house, though. Then they were making a mess and getting underfoot. Hey, mom, you were the one who gave them the race track with 18,905,43 parts ....

Also, nothing ever fit in the car on the ride home. We would be debating which kid to strap to the roof rack in order to fit in the giant gorilla or the Mattel ride-in jeep (everyone who lives on the 5th floor of an apartment building should have one). And don't even get me started on the things from her basement she would take a fit if we didn't take - old lamps, old placemats, etc., all in the name of "helping us out because we didn't have as much" as they had

P.S. edited to add that occasionally, when I had given her a gift in one particular year, say a small purse in the color white - she would give me the exact same purse for my next birthday, in the color blue, because I obviously liked it so much. Weird.

I used to think my sister giving me all these old clothes two sizes too big, free items, used makeup, etc etc etc, wearing a wedding dress on my wedding day, and other assorted forms of what I would describe as abuse were either a conscious attempt to "smear" on me (insert own word for "smear") or an unconscious attempt to belittle due to my being a threat to her old life of total narcissist-building attention from my mother. (she was 16 when I was born). It hurt for a long long time. Now, it may be true, but I dont have a huge emotional connection to it. I dont give her that power. Trying to figure them out or change them is a waste of time.

Now I do not personalize it at all as I have separated myself in heart, mind, and physical distance from her and I have untied the knots that bound me to her. I see now that many times she had no intention of smearing me. She did the same thing to our cousins and even her own "friends."

To a narcissist, people are just objects--and gift giving is a way to make them extensions of the SELF. They are children who cannot function as adults and its often just a way to get through an adult "obligation" in their own clumsy way. They do not recognize the OTHER. It SEEMS like they do, and the hair on my neck still stands up when I think of her and her "evil" ways, but when I really think about it objectively, she usually really just didnt get it. She has no insight. Its like they are missing a gene or something. Oak

I had met my N online .. from 2001 to 2008, we sent each other very nice gifts through the mail. He always sent such thoughtful gifts before I met him.

When I met him, he also bought nice gifts .. but they were never wrapped because I supppose he was never good at that sorta of thing. I always took the time to make my gifts super special, picking out the right thing, the perfect card, the perfect wrapping paper.

His parents had invited me to canada with him to visit and spent time with them at their manitoba house (they are a military family.) Before then, my N ex, named steve, had told me on the phone that he, or his parents had planned on getting me a Wii, only he made it sound like it was a new one. I did get alot of good gifts there, and I did get indeed a wii .. but not the way I expected. He had the wii from last christmas, and it was used .. he just gave it to me like 'here you go' and made it seem like it was a good gift. He didn't wrap it and had built up the expectation that I would get it on christmas day .. only I got it a couple days after, with the cords and everything. I am grateful .. but

later on a forum, he said said "this is why I got rid of my wii." not that he gave to me, just that he 'got rid' of it. He's very ficle and caprecious with items.. and it just seems as if he lazily 'got rid of it' because he got the xbox for christmas, and didn't want the wii anymore.

I can't complain because I got alot of nice gifts .. but that just seemed unthoughtful to me, he never gave a card to me except through the mail, not in person. He was kinda poor in reality when compared to how he was online. But oh well .. lol.

Wow, this is an oldie! I reread this post again and I can remember thinking last year, when people were leaving responses, to this post, that some people thought it was funny.
I was not mad at all, just extremely confused as to why it was so funny. When I read it again now, it is hilarious, I get it now, I have been in NC since Easter 08. I think when you step away and you're not involved in the NS or the N themself, the things they have said and done to you in the past hurt less and you can look back and just shake your head instead of ripping your hair out. But I also don't want to get to the point where I forget either. This last X-Mas we had at Easter as I was not going to be the one to organize it AGAIN, and I gave her a dish set 10.00 and a mini coffe pot 10.00 and a regifted ornament, never in my life have I EVER given her that little, she was just quietly thanked me and that was it, I had realized (from all you guys) that I was never going to beable to buy her love, so I'm done trying. Thanks, Bubs

bubblers wrote:I'm sorry I should have elaborated on my original post, but we did NOT accept the household appliances as a gift. I had to tell her several times that we have a NEW house and we are getting all NEW stainless steel appliances. She ended up getting us the Little Green Machine (small carpet shampooer) from Target, a whopping 69.00.
I did a really fun thing though this Christmas. We got a new lap top in Nov. and my mom supposedly "graduated" from nursing school in Dec. So, I called her up and said "Hey, since we got a new lap top, did you want our old computer for your Christmas and Graduation gift." Of course you all know I had to think about that for days before I actually did it. She actually was speechless and said she'd get back to me on that and she still has not answered me on if she wants it or not. Hee Hee.
P.S. It is so very refreshing to be able to communicate with others that know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Thank you Bubs

This story is so similar to my own...all of my mother's gifts were either on sale and not needed, or throw-aways from her house. Once I got a white plastic laundry basket that was ripped all the way down the side, the edges were so sharp it would either hurt my toddler son at the time, or tear clothes in the basket! I couldn't believe that one. Last year she was emptying out her fridge and she had all these sample jams in cute tiny jars she got from her cruise vacation. She put them all in a bag and said I could have them...and reminded me about waste (cause I asked her why not throw them in the garbage if she didn't want them?). She got all huffy and reminded me of how wasteful I am. Then i remembered something...the cruise she went on, was 4 years earlier!!! she was giving me old jam garbage from her fridge and making me out to be ungrateful.

At my wedding my mother was 40 minutes late. I finally started walking up the isle when she burst in in her hungover face and rabbit skin coat. She looked LIKE HELL. I was so embarrassed but grateful the ushers gave her a seat and i didn't have to turn around. At the reception she spoke to anyone who would listen about how cruel i was when i got engaged (she had not spoken to me since i was engaged - some blow up I cannot remember why...well, those 3 months from engagement to wedding day were the best of my life!).

However, at the wedding she bad-mouthed me making me out to be the meanest daughter - I didn't invite her great-aunt (whom I hardly knew) and she cried and cried and cried throughout my entire ceremony. It was games and I knew it! On the way home from my wedding she had my sister-in-law with her and started 'hyperventalating' and said she was having a heart attack. She was a basket case.

I feel cold when I speak of these events without care or emotion (other than disgust)...but after years and years of putting up with her ruining every single event of mine and my siblings - it's easy to feel less pity for the woman.
REBORN!

I have really enjoyed this thread and meant to post several times. It really is funny (some of it) when you get a little emotional distance.

The broken white plastic laundry basket is my current favorite.

My birthday is near the time when the school year starts, and I would frequently get school supplies wrapped up as b-day presents. Oh, boy! A small box of facial tissues! Just what I always wanted!

When this thread was started last year, I got to remembering a few really nice presents I got from my NM, things that I truly liked and used, notably a good stereo system and a bicycle. Since then, I discovered a ledger of my allowance agreement from that time of my life (~11 - 14 y.o.) and according to the ledger, the stereo and the bike I actually paid for out of my allowance. That would explain why I never had any money to spend! My allowance money was not a gift; I had to earn it a few cents at a time. The point being, my two most important possessions, which I had been remembering as gifts, were not gifts at all - I earned them! Also according to the ledger, 30% of my allowance was supposed to go for school supplies, so those school supplies wrapped up as presents really were gifts, sort of. It meant I didn't have to spend my allowance money on them. But it didn't mean I could spend the money either - "school" money that I didn't spend on school had to go into savings.

For a few years, there was a grocery store in my small town that was opened and operated by a guy who I now realize was/is a CLASSIC case of NPD. All businesses in a town this small really struggle to stay in the black, and many fail after a few years of making a valiant go at it. But they all very generously support community activities, sponsoring school trips, team and band uniforms, beautification projects, etc.
So this grocer, who didn't live here, but opened the store here to make money off us, was asked if he would like to contribute something to the annual county 4-H club picnic. His contribution became a local legend - one six-pack of bargain-brand ginger ale.

I think N gifts really tell more honestly than their words how they see you, and how they see their magnificent selves in relation to you.

Ahahahahahahahahahhaa.

Excellent. I have so much of my mother's crap. Bad clothes, bad vases, shitty vacuum cleaner.

And do you know what? I reckon they give it to us not out of genuine thoughtfulness but because they're too lazy to take it to the salvo's.
I mean then they would actually have to carry it to the car.

And, once in your house it is a constant reminder of how little they think of you.

I want to hermetically seal all narcissists and borderlines (my mum is both I reckon) in a stainless steel container with interior mirrors and a recording that constantly replays their own dialogue.

Then I would get the champion hammer-thrower to hurl it into outer space.

Then I will hermetically seal Earth's atmosphere.
OK, so I'm fantasising. But it helps. A little.

Like I said, Ahaahahahahahahahahahah. Sigh.

I want to hermetically seal all narcissists and borderlines (my mum is both I reckon) in a stainless steel container with interior mirrors and a recording that constantly replays their own dialogue.

Good idea, lyc, but are they really worth all that stainless steel? I think aluminum should be good enough for my own NM.

Oddly, I never had a problem with my NM's gifts. She abandoned me (after kidnapping me and leaving me with out-of-state relatives who were strangers to me) when I was a child, so growing up I didn't receive gifts from her. Before she and my father divorced, I do remember receiving a doll one Christmas but I really don't have many memories of gifts.

After I became a young adult and went to live with her (big mistake, lol) we had nice Christmases. Then, after I married and had children she once again "abandoned" us and I had NC for about 20 years. My children never have received a gift from her and the oldest is now 33.

My N-stepmother gave beautiful gifts, tho when I was a teen I would receive maybe one gift at Christmas (say, a Timex watch) while her children had dozens upon dozens of gifts to open. That hurt, mainly because I was still a child and didn't understand. But as the years passed, she did give nice gifts.

My problem was that nothing--and I do mean nothing--I gave her was considered good enough. Same with presents I gave to my dad and stepsister/stepbrother. Nothing I gave was good enough for them--without exception, there would be something wrong with the gift. It got to the point where she would give me a list of exactly what to buy each of them and woe be it to me if I didn't stick to that list! I always thought a gift was something given from the heart, and given because when you saw it you thought it might make that person happy. When I receive a gift I'm just thrilled that the person thought of me at all. But not with my step-N. Sigh.

As a result, I tend to go overboard with gifts because I still have that in the back of my mind--that my gifts aren't good enough, aren't expensive enough, aren't what was wanted, etc. And I always feel a slight sense of shame when I give a gift, and that goes back to my gifts never being considered good enough. :(

My NM has always given me crappy cheap gifts as I mentioned earlier...

last christmas she sent me a cheap car air-freshner the kind you hang from the mirror...some dollar store body wash made in China and gave my husband a lint brush among other stupid gifts.....(ofcorse she remarked that her other gift to him was " to send him back to his country" totally unprovoked crazziness on her part....
Anyway... one thing that recently dawned on me is that she would also send a card telling me how much she loves me and what a great daughter I am and how Jesus loves me too....This was my NM's way of manipulating religion to draw attention away from the fact that she put no effort, money or thought into her gifts... I mean... how could a good daughter complain if her mother and Jesus love her so much??? I am just realizing to what extent my NM has used the church, and Jesus to justify her N behavior... it's sad but I also realize now that my NM goes to church not to hear the message but to exploit the soft and kind hearts of the church-goers and to get free hand outs when possible.... Her ex-con boyfriend who recently got out of jail after spending 6 years there also does the same thing....it makes me want to vomit....

My NM gave me a pannini maker that she got as a free gift from a catalouge for my birthday !!! :?

Reborn....

Wow.. your mom created a lot of drama at your wedding... I bet you wouldn't have invited her if you knew back then what you know now... I regret taking my NM on vacations and even to some extent having her at my wedding... Although my NM didn't create as much drama as yours my NM did annoy me with a few things.... at the reception half the time she was no where to be found because she was outside smoking... Infact as guest were arriving and should have been greated she was huffing and puffing away on her cigaretts hardly even acknowledging my husbands family or the guests arriving...( my NM loves the bad girl role)
Then... same thing when the parents are supposed to great the guests in line with the bride and groom my husbands family was there and no NM.. The night before the wedding she nicely informed me that she was concerned that my husbands family may never except me because the one N in my husbands family told her his family never excepted her...( ofcorse out of about 40 people in my husbands family my NM found and buddied up to the one N sister-in-law) then the N sister in law tried to get my NM drunk so the sister-in-law could watch my NM make a fool out of herself but luckily my husband and I stayed close to both N's to make sure they weren't starting crap with other family members.... Now that I am fully awake to my NM its sad to think back how she tried to plant the seed in my head that my husbands family might not accept me... Luckily I knew better what kind of people they are and the comment didn't cause doubt or distance in my relationship with them... ofcorse my NM stated this all under the guise of a "concerned mother".... yeah right...

My NM new game, because I have been NC for years, is to send birthday cards to my younger kids, (now 12, 14) and make comments to my older child, that she can't send money cuz I would take it.
Its kinda another game.
She hasnt seen or had a relationship with the kids since they were 5-7, due to me, and NC, but now I am the greedy one, who steals money ffrom my kids.
Boy................they are nuts.
The bad gifts, thread, has me laugh and almost cry. Because I have never received anything that meant anything from NM, but everyone else she is trying to impress has.
Lynn, about church, my NM has the same MO as of late. She told me in an email about a year ago, that "God, made everyone with cracked pots, and we should all just except each other". I am not a good person because I am in NC with her. I SHOULD just get over it. I should......................the list goes on and on.
She's also praying for me, and my bad heart. I am the bad person.
I call her "FLIPPER". Whatever she does, she flips onto the other person.
It makes a person's head spin. Thats why I am out.
just wanted to share.
bk

Just thought of this one. I have a relative who is in her 90s, who is beloved by everyone in the greater family. Some years ago, she sent my NM a nice holiday note on a piece of scrap paper, apologizing that she had no money to buy stationery or cards. My mother, who has plenty of money, sent her a half-inch thick pile of . . . scrap paper. What the . . . ?

Zanderman,

Oh man... ha hah.. that's a good one!!! That totally takes the cake!!

My NM does something pretty Nish.... My NM buys my sister and I the dollar store note pads, several of them for our birthday or christmas...
I got her MO down now... Christmas list is:

2 "dollar store" note pads
2 "dollar store" lotions
1 "dollar store" christmas cookie tin
1 "dollar store" ceramic figurine
1 "dollar store" christmas ornament

If my sister saw this list she would probably guess that it's me posting this... ahhh Geez.... the thoughfulness of the N....

Lynn, are you my sister?? Just kidding, I don't have a sister... Oh, the dollar store... instead of one 10.00 gift that is crap, now it's ten 1.00 crappier gifts, but it just LOOKS like there was a lot of money spent, cause there's SO many gifts. Oh, but NM's friends and sisters get the cream of the crop gifts, lot's of thoughtful gifts, suited to their personality. The insanity of it all...Bubs

Bubblers- so glad to hear you have reached this point, the last sentance is so powerful and true, you WILL NEVER be able to please your NM. So sad, so true, I mean we all need/ed unconditional love, regardless of any gift. The "gifts" are very symbolic of our familial relationships don't you think ? A reflection of what they really thought of us. Can't begin to even name the crappy stuff I've received, know one thing, my NM would give away my gifts mostly to good will or her fav. re-gift, so I stopped cold turkey, it wasn't worth my time, going back to your comment- she will never be happy.period.

i know this is an old thread, but i'm new to this forum and just need a way to ease into it.

i'm here trying to figure out for certain if my mother is as toxic as my father and brother (only full sibling) are. i can't decide if she's an N or just has to abide by my N father's and N brother's rules.

my father and brother are both NC for me. i have been deeply traumatized by both of them. i need to decide now if my mother will also be NC. we used to be in regular contact, but since my brother's latest vendetta against me, she doesn't respond to my emails or cards like she used to.

anyway, this thread has been the most useful so far, as my mother has always been a terrible gift giver, giving things that are totally inappropriate, as if she doesn't even know me.

(btw, i got a pannini grill too, and now i'm wondering if it was a free gift with a magazine subscription too! :D )

we had a major falling out over the gift she gave me for my 50th birthday. she had not given me a gift in many years, so i was terribly excited to open a beautifully wrapped and beribboned box that arrived the night before my birthday. never before had she taken such care with the beauty of the wrapping of a gift for me.

i opened it up, full of anticipation. inside was a needlepoint pillow with this message inscribed on it:

"i smile because you are my daughter. i laugh because there is nothing you can do about it."

i felt like i'd been slapped violently across the face. thinking maybe i was just being oversensitive, i asked my husband to come take a look. he blanched.

this gift came after my mother and i had finally reconciled (i thought) after years of NC because of her and my NF's hideous behavior over my marriage (they went around telling all the relatives they hadn't been invited to our wedding, when they had been, but my NF refused to come or let my mother come, because they didn't like where we were having the wedding--a friend's house. of course he'd also made it explicit not to expect a penny of help from him with wedding expenses--but that's another very long story).

anyway, my mother knew that being their daughter had been a nightmare for me. she herself had agreed that the NF was a "horrible father."

to me, the message was, "we laugh at your pain."

i called a couple of friends and told them about the gift, and they also found it awful.

i woke up at 4 am the morning of my birthday sobbing. then i lay there, remembering that while i have no power to change her, i do have the power to change my response.

so what would be a better response? i know, i'll change the message on the pillow:

"i smile because i am my own daughter; i laugh because there is nothing my parents can do about it."

then i wrote an email to my mother telling her that her gift was very hurtful. at that point, she cut off contact with me.

my husband came from a healthy family. for years now i've depended on him to tell me how healthy parents behave. but even i did not need him to tell me that a healthy parent would not respond to their child's expression of hurt by cutting them off.

alicebg - that would have hurt me very deeply. That was a stab to the heart. I can only agree with your interpretation, the message of "we laugh at your pain." I just don't see any other plausible message in a gift like that. I hope it's obvious that you need to go to full NC with her along with father and bro. I would certainly go NC with anyone who would do that.

Or maybe you don't have to, since she cut you off. Anyway, you are better off now. What a rattlesnake!

thanks for your reply, zanderman.

i'm finding it very hard to accept that my mother really and truly doesn't love me. she's behaved badly before, but there have also been times when i see her reaching out to me as very genuine and heartfelt.

i always just thought that she had trouble expressing her feelings, and that explained why she was always so cold and aloof and unavailable. i was emotionally starved growing up, starved for affection from her.

even with my brother, the golden child, she is not affectionate. she has always been very aloof and very selfish.

i don't know why she hasn't responded to me. it's possible that my NB has intercepted my communications (he is staying with them, i live 2500 miles away). when he is gone, i plan to call her and ask if she has received my emails and cards.

she wrote me some months ago asking to be back in my life, yet hasn't responded to my welcoming her back.

i think she has narcissistic traits, but i do think she's capable of recognizing what is going on with the family. i don't think she has full-blown npd.

otoh, i may just be kidding myself.

in any event, in order to go NC i need to see for myself what she is made of, and not infer or tell myself stories.

if she has chosen my brother over me, and therefore is fine if we never see each other again, it will break my heart. i had always held out hope that after my NF died (he is fading away now), she and i might work out our relationship and be friends. it always seemed to me that the reason we couldn't before was because of NF's interference.

now i fear my NB has taken over for my NF, and will make sure my mother and i don't have a relationship. she has always been very dependent on my abusive NF, having married him as a teenager, she's never been on her own and is afraid to be on her own.

i don't know if the situation is that my NB is making her dependent on him now, and is controlling her as our NF controlled her, or if she is also an N, and she and NB will manipulate, control, and use each other in a dance i don't want anything to do with.

i am very idealistic about relationships and very tenderhearted. i've been trying to heal this relationship for over 40 years now. it was always my NF that i thought was the real problem. it's heartbreaking to realize that it might not just be him, that i really no longer have any immediate family.

very hard to accept.

Hi Alice,

"i opened it up, full of anticipation. inside was a needlepoint pillow with this message inscribed on it:

"i smile because you are my daughter. i laugh because there is nothing you can do about it."

i felt like i'd been slapped violently across the face. thinking maybe i was just being oversensitive, i asked my husband to come take a look. he blanched.'


I agree...the pillow seemed like it was meant to hurt you...interesting how she would take the time to wrap it beautifully...it seems sadistic...my NM has done things to intentionally hurt me too...I have seen the sadistic side of my NM and that is the major reason I went NC for awhile and now very limited contact with her....if the things an N did were just careless thoughlessness I think that would be bad enough but when they intentionally reach out to hurt you,( totally unprevoked) that to me is just sooooo much worse...and for me it has broken all trust I had in my NM...

I also spent years thinking my NM also just had trouble expressing her feelings and that too was why she was cold, aloof, and unavailable...But, when I realized it wasn't normal for a mother to not be nurtureing and the fact that my NM was always spiteful no matter how hard I tried to please her ....it opened my mind up to the possibility of a personality disorder...and NPD... I understand how you feel.... it's a hard realization....I can't say it isn't....

I understand how you feel also about having so many family members that are dysfunctional, so hang in there...you aren't alone...It sounds like you have a careing and supportive husband....so do I...My husband is now my family....I used to feel like I needed my blood family but now I am content with haveing a loving husband... a friend of mine has 2 N brothers and no spouse....so, I feel blessed...things could be worse...as crazy as that is...

lynn,
good point about how much tougher it would be without a kind and loving partner. hard to imagine how i would manage.

i suspect that i'd still be very involved with my N family if i hadn't married and had such a positive family model from my H and his family.

they say that marriage is the "healing arena" and that has certainly been true for me.

possibly this is why my NF raised such a stink when i got married. the first NC happened because he was unhappy about the marriage.

OOOOOH! I just couldn't resist posting on this subject...

My N is my 93 year old Grandmother, who, I must add has all her faculties... I had been out of the country for at least 11 years working abroad, which also got me away from bullying techniques and controlling dramas.

While I was abroad, as the Grandaughter, I was expected to send her birthday, easter and christmas gifts through the post and so to keep the peace for my long suffering mother (her daughter), I bought gifts and send them back to the UK with an card. Over 11 years, it cost me a fortune, which I couldnt really afford.

A few weeks after returning to my home town, my mother gave me a large plastic bag which she told me was a gift from my Grandmother, when I asked what was in it, she told me she didnt know. On opening the bag, I found every gift I had every bought her over 11 years, some still in half opened christmas paper! I was fuming. About an hour later, Gran called to find out why I hadn't called to say thank you. When I asked her why she had given me all the gifts back, she said "I dont want all that crap in my house"....

Glad I'm not the only one who has had gift trauma...