Psychopath and Narcissist Survivors Support Group

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Saw a photo on the cover of a magazine of Sheryl Crowe and her newly adopted son...OMG...a three week old baby with a deep scowl on his face.
It made my heart sink, and very likely read too much into it...probably he is /will be fine.
But, given the high incidenec of troubled adopted kids, it really made me wonder if prospective adoptive parents are given any information about personailty disorders and the genetic risk their adopted child may have?

wahela · Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 188 Location: Iowa

I doubt seriously if adoptive parents are informed of the risks. As I believed when I met and married the exNP, and helped him to raise his P (diagnosed) daughters, I thought a child needed love, and everything was wonderful. I thought that nurture was more important than nature.

Well, both girls were eventually diagnosed as RAD (reactive attachment disorder), and I have found out that there are many reasons for failure to bond (and no, all the blame is NOT placed on the Mother for failure to bond, like everyone thinks). Little Russian children in an orphanage for a year or two fail to bond, Chinese children left on a doorstep fail to bond sometimes, etc.

I have known of lots of parents having terrible times with their adoptive children, due to failure to bond. Failure to attach. I was going through "Holding therapy" with the youngest P stepdaughter when she was ten, and that poor girl in Evergreen Colorado died being wrapped up in cloth, while they held her. They try to attach them to a parent when they are under ten years old. Thinking that they can attach them, then they will be allright. Even if a child is totally adored, if they cannot believe that someone loves them, then they will respond that no one loves them. And if they don't attach to someone, the world is never going to be a nice place. Then you have RAD children. Who have been known to kill pets, drown chicks, try to beat up kindergarten teachers, etc.

Knowing what I know about RAD, I would not adopt a child unless I knew their history, and a trial period of one or two years before adopting. Because these people are adopting these children from unknown circumstances, and the adoption is final, and then, you can't give them back.

My stepdaughter's therapist, a really nice woman, was a RAD child, that's why she was so good with RAD children. She knew how it was. She was attached to her adoptive Mother when she was six. She says she was born at six, and she remembers how terrible it was before that time. (note: she was attached to her Mother at six, but she was adopted at one years old). Adoption and attachment are two different things.

There are so many wonderful children needing adoption. If I had more room, more time, more of myself left (after NP), I would adopt a houseful. But I think I would adopt older children, knowing their history. There are a lot of adopted children that are NOT RAD. They deserve a good life. but I just don't think I could do it anymore.
_________________
"Expect to have hope rekindled. Expect your prayers to be answered in wonderous ways. The dry seasons of life do not last. The spring rains will come again."
-Sara BanBreathnach

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

wahela,
That's what I suspected, that they aren't informed.
When my kids were small, about 18 years ago, some neighbors of mine adopted a son. They went through the typical lengthly screening process. I don't recall all of the details, but I do remember that they were told that the bio mom had mental health problems , and that there was a three year old daughter as well. They declined to adopt the girl because she seemed to be already damaged. The boy they adopted as a newborn. He grew up to be physically violent toward both of his parents. They spent thousands of doallars and years in therapy. This kid drained their last resource. They had wanted to have a large family but parenting him took all they had.
I wouldn't dare adopt a child .
Still wonder if there's any difference now.

wahela · Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 188 Location: Iowa

I don't think there is any difference now. Adoption is still such a hopeful thing. Finding a baby when you have been childless, etc. I think I'd be very fearful in adopting a baby, or even a small child. And RAD children are so superficially sweet and loving to people that don't matter. The stepchildren were in therapy for 7 years, and one of their therapists told me that the school psychologist told HER, "There is nothing wrong with those children. They have a stepmother problem." I was so angry at that. But I recognize how they acted when he was around. One time, the oldest P stepdaughter, crying so delicately and prettily in front of a new male therapist, asked me in the car afterwards, "Did I cry too much? Do you think I did it allright? Do you think he believed me?" I kind of drily said, "Oh , I think you did it right."

Teachers, schools, even therapists have a tendency to look around the child to see who is not doing their job. Because I was the stepmother, I was, of course, the first person they looked at. I braided their hair, read them books, rubbed their backs, bought all of their school supplies, etc. I taught them how to bake cookies, throw a snowball, all kinds of things that you would think people should know. Yet, there was always an undercurrent of hatred under there.

The exNP (after the baby chicks were killed) told the stepdaughter, "You are not in charge of feeding the chickens anymore. I will do it." She glared at me and said, "Its all her fault." he told her that it was his decision alone, and she was to stay away from the chickens. And from that day forward, she would bring up how I wouldn't let her feed the chicks. I was already detaching from them all, so I didn't tell them what to do or what not to do. I left that to their father. But, of course, it was my fault.

The more I find out about ASPD, the more I am convinced that there is a large genetic piece of the puzzle. And I agree, add drugs, and you have a mess. I've heard horror stories (worse than MY stories) about RAD children.

wahela
_________________
"Expect to have hope rekindled. Expect your prayers to be answered in wonderous ways. The dry seasons of life do not last. The spring rains will come again."
-Sara BanBreathnach

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Wahela,
The way you have described it, I can picture that scene in the car so vividly. How surreal, like something from a scary movie.

Guess it is naive of me to think that the system might have changed in any sustantial way. Apparently we're still even going with the 'evil stepmother' theory, rather than taking a closer look at the child herself?

I'm glad for you that you have detached yourself from that situation. What a nightmare. : (

I know more than is good for me about ASPD ...not a thing about RAD, will look it up.

paradox

wahela · Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 188 Location: Iowa

I've said this a million times: If one of the stepdaughters shows up in my town, she may be smiling, but she'd have a butcher knife behind her back. I sincerely doubt that either one of them remember one good thing I did for them. I just assumed that small children can be taken in and loved and it will be fine. Maybe that's true in some cases, but not in this case.

I still want to contact the school counselor, but it wouldn't do any good, I am sure. I want to say, "Stepmother problem, eh? Did you read your psych eval?" But I would just look vindictive and prove he was right about stepmothers. LOL

I'm getting better, but for a few years there, I was very uncomfortable around teenagers. My own grandchildren, I feel safe around. But strangers made me nervous, when they are under 18. But I am getting more relaxed again. My bio daughter used to have a whole group of kids over to the house several times a week. And they would invite me to sit at the table and talk, etc. I had about 10 kids calling me "second Mom", for many years. So when I met these two little girls who were abandoned by their bio mother, I felt that they needed a Mother (of any kind, even step) to take care of them and love them. And I was willing to do the job. Boy, did THAT backfire.

wahela
_________________
"Expect to have hope rekindled. Expect your prayers to be answered in wonderous ways. The dry seasons of life do not last. The spring rains will come again."
-Sara BanBreathnach

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

I adore kids, too.., always have.
Most of the time I am smart enough to be grateful for now having a more realistic understanding of how the world works. Other times... remember meeting someone new and feeling comfortable just taking it for granted that they would more than likely turn out to be decent and kind, that we all operate under the same 'golden rule'? Especially kids, just thinking they are so unformed and inherently good...sometimes I'm not entirely sure it was a fair trade.

wahela · Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 188 Location: Iowa

If you are going to check out RAD children, check out "holding therapy". That's a chore. The theory is, holding a child down, sitting on his/her back, while she screams and yells that she can't breathe, and stay there not talking to her until she quits and says she will be good and go to her room (its designed to ensure that she knows you are in control). That may go on for an hour or two. But it does work for awhile.

There was also a case in Evergreen Colorado, where they would simulate birth, by moving through these blankets, to be born and attach to the adoptive mother. The little girl was screaming she couldn't breathe (which is what they all scream about when in holding). And she died. They had pressed on her too much, and she could not breathe. They had a major murder case in Colorado about 1999 or 2000.

Which gave RAD therapy a bad name. Because we were expected to do "holding" no matter where we were, and when the cops were called, they were to call the therapist. We did it once in the driveway, and the cops came, and they called the therapist who explained what was happening. And they were okay with it. Luckily the Pstepdaughter never did that in a store or something. Whew!

I don't know if RAD children grow up to be Ps, or if they misdiagnosed them both. They thought that they were RAD because their Mother had wanted to abort them both, had wanted to give them up for adoption, and then kind of dumped them when she met a new man that didn't want kids around. (she may have been borderline, but she definitely wasnt an N or P.).

The exNP wanted them (that way he could stay on welfare, and not work). And he raised them very dysfunctionally. They had electra complexes (big ones), emotionally incested, raged at, thrown around, thrown out the front door on Christmas morning, because the exNP said they were not grateful enough. I would get between him and the girls, because he knew he couldn't throw me around. Because that was one of my only deal breakers. I can honestly say, that regardless of how much those girls hated me, they hopefully remember how I got between them and their Father when he was raging.

wahela
_________________
"Expect to have hope rekindled. Expect your prayers to be answered in wonderous ways. The dry seasons of life do not last. The spring rains will come again."
-Sara BanBreathnach

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Wow,Wahela, I remember vagualy hearing about smuggling deaths related to therapy. I didn't realize that it was about RAD and 'holding'. It has to take a lot of faith in a theory to be willing to sit on a child who is screaming that she cannot breathe.: (

It's thought that kids who are at risk for becoming Ps or (similarly disordered) may benefit by lots of holding; nursing, hugging, etc. ..that kind of nurturant touching. "Holding " sounds so strong arm...done to make the child see who is in control? What happens when the kid goes to the playground and sits on a classmate to show whose in control? Sounds like hitting ; spank to show whose boss, then the kid learns to hit to assert his own power. Maybe bigger problems call for stronger responses...just seems really over the top.

I hope those girls retain some memory of your nurturing, too. It may be the thing that saves them.

wahela · Joined: 18 May 2007 Posts: 188 Location: Iowa

The idea of "holding" is to teach them, hopefully, that someone else is in control, because these children have been out of control for so long, that supposedly they calm down faster after they get used to someone else controlling. And they do calm down faster after the first three or four times. They still continue to scream that they can't breathe, even tho no one is pushing on their chest, its a fear feeling from birth, they say.

No, they probably won't think of it as help. And it won't be the thing that saves them either. They have both been diagnosed ASPD, BPD, with thrill seeking. I have said before, I fully expect to see one of them on the news someday.
_________________
"Expect to have hope rekindled. Expect your prayers to be answered in wonderous ways. The dry seasons of life do not last. The spring rains will come again."
-Sara BanBreathnach

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

Wahela,
This reminds me of when my "healthy" son was about three years old, he kept getting up around 3 AM and climbing into bed with H and I. After 3 AM, he would simply refuse to go back to bed and stay in his room. After several weeks of this , we were all zombies. Something bad was going to happen due to sleep deprivation.. (older brother was really high maintanance at the time, too.) We were all just ragged. So I got a book, think it was called solving your child's sleep problems. The book said to bring the child back to his room, tell him he must stay in his bed. When he gets up, gently lead him back to bed and close the bedroom door, holding it closed from the outside. Then you tell the ( by now screaming) child that if he wants the door open, he must stay in his bed. One the kid is back in bed, you open the door . The idea there was that the kid has the control because if he stays in bed, the door stays open. (?)The whole thing made me sooo uncomfortable,it felt ausive. The kid screamed bloody murder for 15 minutes the first night...the second night , and every night thereafter, he just stayed in bed.: ) And he never mentioned it, doesn't remember it..it was like magic.
And that was the 'normal' child. So, with a kid with problem behaviors, it stands to reason that stronger measures would be needed. It must be a frightening process for parents.
I'm sorry that the girls have been diagnosed with those disorders. I'm sorry that I'm not better at keeping track of the details. I'm not very good at that sometimes, especially on a forum like this , where there are names and stories, but no faces.

Still hope that it brings them, and you, some comfort that great effort was made on their behalf.
paradox

paradox · Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 120

..and now I'm thinking about swaddling babies..and some autistic kids find comfort in restraint..wonder if there's any relationship?